 Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, that is rather humbling viewing 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arno wrote: |
| ... humbling ... |
It is. All credit to him.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| ...... [skiing] is incredibly good for my health, I reckon the NHS should prescribe me a season! |
If you find a GP willing to write out the prescription, please pass on his name  Where's Kramer when you need him??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Red Leon wrote: |
| Butterfly wrote: |
| ...... [skiing] is incredibly good for my health, I reckon the NHS should prescribe me a season! |
If you find a GP willing to write out the prescription, please pass on his name Where's Kramer when you need him?? |
I'll have one too please. My job, although I love it, is murder on all my aches and pains...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Axsman, I'm confused. Surely your uphill shoulder is over your inside ski? Dropping the outside shoulder a la rob@rar does indeed put your hips to the inside but surely that just means you keep going in the same direction but in a tighter arc? I don't see how it can initiate a turn.
Probably just me though 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yoda, uphill shoulder is over the new outside ski (of the turn you are about to start). So dropping your uphill shoulder puts your inside hip downhill, to the inside of the new turn.
I would be careful with this type of drill though as I think it could lead to some strangely contorted positions!
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Yoda, Dunno. It works though. 
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Ah, the curse of uphill/downhill. Guaranteed to cause confusion. Inside/outside is where it's at!
beanie1, yes, it can cause a bit of contortion if done excessively, but isn't it just a different way of describing an angulated (as opposed to inclined) position?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, hmm, just visualising it here... You see I think if you drop one shoulder, the other will go up (admittedly the hips will also drop in). For me it brings to mind that leaning out of the turn exercise you sometimes see instructors doing with groups... If you think about angulation the shoulders are actually normally more or less level with each other:
http://etvsport.ee/failid/galerii2358.jpg
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beanie1, I'd be wary of suggesting a mental trigger which involved the shoulders because it could all go horribly wrong, but I can see it does push the hips into the turn if done in a particular way, and as Axsman described it worked for him. My preference would be to suggest tipping the skis on edge or to push the hips into the centre of the turn, but if the shoulder thing works without causing unintended consequences then it's one thing to try I suppose.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK I'll try again - when does this "shoulder dropping" occur? If it is to "initiate" the turn as described then it must be whilst the skis are still finishing the old turn ? Sounds like a disaster about to happen to me 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What I'm doing isn't shoulder dropping. Focusing on the arm I'd use to indicate direction of turn on a bike, I sort of lead the turn with that arm/shoulder so as to encourage my weight to be on the new outside ski (opposite side to the shoulder) and discourage my shoulders from turning into the hill, away from the fall line. I guess it could make the outside shoulder drop? Don't know really! Anyway it has helped my turns a lot. I've a long way to go still though!
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Butterfly, be careful you don't fall into the habit of swinging your shoulder around (although I'm sure that easiski would have jumped on you like a ton of bricks if you had been doing that!).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| OK I'll try again - when does this "shoulder dropping" occur? If it is to "initiate" the turn as described then it must be whilst the skis are still finishing the old turn ? Sounds like a disaster about to happen to me |
At cross-over?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just one suggestion to those of you who have mentioned the difficulty of getting that first turn in. When you set off, head straight down the hill not across, then your first turn is just a half turn which is much easier than traversing and trying to do a full turn at slow speed. If possible, make the half turn to your stronger side. If you then link into your first full turn, you are initiating that turn from an already dynamic posture.
Trust me, it's not really scary and it works 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ccl, good idea on a gentle slope and is what I do to teach people to carve (step 2, step 1 is a traverse on edges to get easily the sensation of the skis turning for you). However for an already timid skier on a steep slope not sure it would be that helpful.
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beanie1, I was always taught to do it as it allows you to get a feel for the snow conditions before you do a whole turn... thus allowing you to adjust strategy if you misread the conditions.... Quite a few times my instructors have done this and called out a "stop" as they make this half turn... gnarly snow that the want to give instruction about before allowing me to drop in... once or twice it was too late and I was in there with them already... once in really nasty stuff...
Taking a student to a slope that is waaaaay too intimidating is a good way to achieve a backwards progression... so that was not usually an issue... I did not usually choose to ski with instructors like that...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Butterfly, be careful you don't fall into the habit of swinging your shoulder around (although I'm sure that easiski would have jumped on you like a ton of bricks if you had been doing that!). |
Definitely!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, It's her inside shoulder and arm that she's moving, puts more weight/pressure on the turning ski and stops any rotation of the shoulder (and hopefully, but not always the hip). Butterfly, Is a bit exaggerated at present, but it will become more subtle wwith comfort and practise. 
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| ccl wrote: |
| When you set off, head straight down the hill not across, then your first turn is just a half turn which is much easier than traversing and trying to do a full turn at slow speed. |
Agree, or if not straight down the fall line, at least more down than across. Nowadays, now that I feel a bit more competent, I usually start off from a halt with my skis pointing to about 5 o'clock. Another way that I found works is to start off in a forward side slip. By doing that, your skis are already flat so half of the edge to edge is already done. I also find it's good if you're just pootling while watching for other people or waiting for friends, as it means you can start moving in full control before you actually start skiing (as in more dynamic movements)
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| easiski wrote: |
| rob@rar, It's her inside shoulder and arm that she's moving, puts more weight/pressure on the turning ski and stops any rotation of the shoulder (and hopefully, but not always the hip). Butterfly, Is a bit exaggerated at present, but it will become more subtle wwith comfort and practise. |
OK, I wasn't quite sure. How is the inside shoulder moved - is it forwards, with the arm coming up a little?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| ccl, good idea on a gentle slope and is what I do to teach people to carve (step 2, step 1 is a traverse on edges to get easily the sensation of the skis turning for you). However for an already timid skier on a steep slope not sure it would be that helpful. |
I think we are talking of two things here: firstly the matter of starting off downhill instead of across which I would argue is a good idea in its own right ; secondly the matter of timidity. Perhaps it is good to get to grips with this approach on a slope that isn't causing any great anxiety and then to build up confidence in doing it on progressively steeper slopes. But those who have mentioned the problem of long indecisive traverses are not too timid to be skiing these slopes in the first place and I suggest this method of starting could well be helpful to them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I hope I'm not alone, but I've been sat here wriggling my hips and indicating with my arms to see which bit of the body ends up where (I hope no-one was watching). All of the above instructions seem to do the opposite of what they describe except easiski's, talk of the inside arm which would appear to have the desired effect.
After reading all that I don't think I'm going to try any of it, it all sounds so confusing!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, I did the same earlier today 
For the shoulder thing stand in front of a mirror, straight on. Drop one shoulder down (not forwards or backwards) as far as you can, allowing the rest of your body (especially hips) to move to accommodate the shoulder dropping down, but keeping your feet in the same place. Notice what happens to your hips - do they stay in the same place or do they move. If they move, which way do they move?
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Megamum, rob@rar, are there tickets for sale? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Salsa skiing anyone?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, OK, instructions followed, I think (that's the operative word!) if I dip the right hand shoulder that the left hand hip rises, yes? but the effect is very subtle.
So following the instructions above if I am traversing the hill from left to right then the right hand shoulder is uphill. If I dip the right hand shoulder the left hand hip should lift. This puts pressure on the right hand - currently the uphill ski, yes?.............which should then initiate the turn, but it must be very momentary and at the start of the turn, because I would have thought that weights the wrong edge of outside ski if left on for too long, when I turn I think I put most of my weight on the inside edge of the outside ski as the turn finishes otherwise I'd end up on my backside when its icy
However, its very difficult to think about what you do when your not actually skiing, I've been sitting here trying to visualise what I do when I turn.
Hurtle, Definitely visions of 'Do the Bump'!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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No one seems to have mentioned this concept SNOW DISPLACEMENT & SPEED CONTROL in a nice article from Phil Smith at Snoworks.
http://www.snoworks.co.uk/i-skiing/blog4.html
In essence "Ask almost anyone how they control speed or slow down and 99.9% of responses would be 'turn' . . . " worth a read as he accurately writes about what turning and snow displacement do in order to control your speed which answers a lot of people's questions about how to cope with controlling speed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, sorry, I can't quite follow your description (too many uphill and downhill references for my little brain to follow!).
If you drop one shoulder the effect is to move your hips sideways (you noticed that one hip moved up, it can only have done this if it also moved sideways assuming you didn't move your feet). Moving your hips sideways changes the angle of your legs from the vertical, which means that the edge angle of your skis on the snow also changes. If you put your skis on an edge with your weight on them you will follow an arc as your skis carve a line in the snow. Pretty simple, and as discussed above possible not a useful mental trigger for everyone because playing around with the shoulders can lead to other problems arising.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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johnnyh, I think a few of us have talked about skidding, either directly of by implication (when mentioning rotation or pivoting).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I think a few of us have talked about skidding,
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perhaps . . . but no one has described clearly the mechanism (and sense) in which speed is controlled through the "displacement of snow" within the turn. I think the PS article does a good job of separating the two ideas out namely that of steering, and controlling speed with these being the two goals of many skiers.
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johnnyh, yes I agree. It's a good bit of writing from Phil. Most of my technical understanding of skiing has come from him, either directly or indirectly.
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rob@rar, Ahhh.....I been wriggling again, yes I've found the movement of the hips they do move to one side. I'm in bare feet and I can feel the way the feet want to roll - it would indeed put skis onto their edges and I think at a similar angle, which is what I sometimes find is the most difficult thing to do. I might try wiggling on an easy slope going down the fall line and see what effect it has.
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Megamum, well done, we got there in the end! On an easy slope just think about tipping your skis onto an edge, both skis the same amount. Don't do anything else, just tip. Don't think about shoulders or hips, just tipping your skis. Start of in a straight line down a very gentle slope and follow the curve that the skis want to take. Important: don't do anything else, just tip and let the skis do want they want to do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yoda, I didn't know you were a fan of Spyder gear.
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FAQ
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) things I know can go wrong. Shoulders, hips, knees, ankles - so many joints to screw up your skiing! 
