Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

A snowHead

The BASI reply to Question 3 is interesting.

A snowHead

AndAnotherThing.., yes indeedy.... who needs an ISTD Alpine, just get your top level Adaptive badge or snowboard ISIA and off you go.... wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Unless you are also a L2 Skier wink

(if I read it correctly)

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Bindingcheck,

Haha and should we consider peoples cultural background, location and hearing before we check their eyesight and put them in a special adaptive eurotest? Then factor in a pass time relative to the amount of hours they have been able/arsed to ski?

I'd agree if the level was very high but the number of people passing and the skiing of those that fail shows otherwise. The basic knowledge of skis, how they work, how to use them and look after them is a lesson that the eurotest teaches very well. As well as showing the pinnacle of safety is achieved.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

jjc james,

Oh dear, I really don't think that last post was your best ever effort.

My argument was based on facts. It did state that the skill level required should be at expert level (the 10,000 hour theory) and it did give one physiological example of why 'older', but expert, skiers would find it more difficult than younger expert skiers.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Bindingcheck, Your right! It is fact that when you get older you may not be able to perform as you could at a younger age, but the issue with your argument is how much is it an age thing and how much is it all the other factors of which there are a silly number? Using your 10,000 hour theory, which is used for world class performance (which the eurotest is light years away from being) at which point does putting the hours in result in it not being possible to pass the eurotest? How much of the age related issues can be combated through things such as an s+c program. Lots of the guys here that have passed % wise are silly amounts away from their top potential in physical conditioning. Again all of the older candidates i have seen are in the same boat, so is it age or is it lack of education or effort in achieving full potential?

Is it discriminatory to give an older candidate who is a measomorph and advantage over a younger endomorph? We could go on to talk about many biological priniciples that will effect the performance (pages worth). The question is tho when being asked to perform something that is very achievable without being close to physical perfection should an advantage be given for something that say may account for less than 1%

It gets complicated Very Happy

After all it is free

Just to throw another example out there studies show that with dehydration of 2% to body mass there will be a substantial negative effect on mental and physical performance. Should we wee wee test in the morning and adjust their pass time accordingly? I wouldn't be suprised if almost all the field where classed as dehydrated today, having spent all my ACL rehab having my hydration monitored i know how hard it is to stay at a level to achieve full potential. I would have been dehydrated opening today so the candidates could have gained something there Very Happy

jjc, so are you saying that an age allowance if there was one, would have to be calculated on the performances of older candidates in peak physical condition. Therefore the allowance would be very small indeed? Effectively being smaller than the time distance between pass times and actual times of the current older candidates.

Doing a very small sample from the candidates this week these candidates were anywhere from 5-10 secs off passing. This being even further away than the girls time by a good couple of seconds.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

jjc,

Agreed that as one gets older one's performance is likely to deteriorate which is why it might be more reasonable to compare 40 year olds with 40 year olds for example. Also agreed that Eurotest is not world class racing, but the 10,000 hour rule has been reviewed since Anders Ericsson first did his research on violinists and it is now generally used to denote 'expert' level; add up the time that it has taken you to get where you are.

Agreed that physical conditioning (as opposed to physiological degradation) is a feature and probably poor physical condition is a reason for lack of success. Body types (ecto, meso & endomorph) do not, as you are no doubt aware, preclude the achievement of a high level of physical conditioning they just make it harder to achieve. Which gets us back to the stuff that one can't control, two of which are gender and physiological deterioration due to age.

One could be forgiven for thinking that the gender allowance is perhaps too large but until they get female openers the situation is unlikely to change. On the same basis if they could use age group openers to set the standard that would be reasonable (even if it is Stephane Cret) but until that happens an allowance for physiological deterioration (age) is not unreasonable.

P.S. the eyesight example has nothing to do with requiring spectacles.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

How do you intend on measuring physiological deterioration to determine your percentage?

At what level do we say someone is expert? Does the eurotest standard constitute expert GS skiing? I guess someones answer to this is largely perception.

10,000 hours is a lot, i doubt i am close to this in GS (or when i achieved eurotest standard) I started to race at 10 and did on average about 3-5 weeks a year on snow by the time i was under 100 fis points. I have done 1 full season with training and 2 others since then without a program (working and racing skicross) the rest i have been having operations, so i reckon a lot of the candidates have skied a lot more than me!

Body types do have massive effects on areas of physical conditioning, hence why UK sport run things like talent ID camps based purely on body type to stream into certain sports!

Would you be happy then if it was 18% from the fastest 40 year old? Didier Cuche is 37 almost 38 and has placed 4th in GS this season, we could use him?

There are female openers but they calibrate with us and there time is adjusted accordingly.

snow reports

I haven't visited this thread in a long while (what a relief, I hear you say) and maybe someone has answered this question already, but I continue to be unable to understand what speed has got to do with teaching. Sorry to bring up the old analogy, but virtuoso instrumental musicians (who can be defined, in part, as those who are able to play successive notes exceptionally quickly) are not often known as good teachers as well. Good teachers understand the mechanics of how instrumentalists have to practise in order to hone the virtuoso skills with which they were born, but they can't physically do it themselves: they are not usually thought to be any the worse teachers for their own inability to play very quickly. Why should skiing be any different?

Are there many ski racers who also coach? Perhaps when they retire from racing? At which point they can presumably not ski as fast as they once could, or even very fast at all?

(Perhaps the old saying is true, 'those who can, do, those who can't, teach.')

You know it makes sense.

I have a suggestion for the Eurotest that may have been made before and/or may be naive. (I have read the whole thread but I really don't want to go back through the whole of it again!) Someone is bound to tell me either way.

I feel sure someone has done some analysis into biomechanics/body types and how that affects skiing on certain courses. And I believe there can be considerable variation in GS course layout?

So my suggestion is that:

There could be a Eurotest (Narrow) for those candidates who are in the peak ranges for age, height, body fat (whatever is deemed appropriate) where the course layout emphasises speed and fast reaction times as well as the underlying skill.

Then there could be a Eurotest (Broad) for those candidates who are too old, too light, too pregnant etc. The course layout could be made somewhat slower so speed and reaction times are (somewhat) less of a factor and body type is not significant.

Everything else stays the same: openers , calibration, pass level. The openers just won't be able to ski the Eurotest (Broad) as fast as the Eurotest (Narrow) so everyone is still held to the same standard just that the standard takes account of differences in the candidates.

The candidates would be allocated to the appropriate Eurotest with perhaps a subset being allowed to choose.

So why doesn't it work?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Hi All. This is an update I posted today on the IASI (Irish association snowsport instructors). In short, what exists in France exists and will not change. You may agree with it or not, but this has been a long and ongoing matter that has been discussed at the highest level for years. IASI do not intend to get involved in changing the process in France. We do however intend to work with ISIA to develop relationships and working opportunities in other nations world wide. If you want to establish in France you will need to do the Eurotest.

Quick International update from the board.

As you can see we have a training delegation in DAVOS at the ISIA safety workshop. This is fantastic for IASI and builds on the great work we are doing on the International scene. Thanks to Robbie and Derek who are representing IASI at this event.

As you will be aware the Eurotest (high level GS test) is a requirment for ski instructors to work in the French Alps as professionals. This will NOT change and it is important that members aiming for a career in France recognise this. IASI instructors will be able to access the Eurotest so gaining the same working rights as other European instructors in France. IASI is not focused on trying to change this situation.

The situation in other major Alpine nations is not always clear and we hope to offer clarity in this post. To work as a snowsports instructor in Austria, Italy, Switzerland and Germany you do NOT require your level 4 with Eurotest. In most cases a level 2 will be enough to gain employment within an organised ski school. Some nations and regions have different rules and you will need to check with the school you intend to work for.

You can also (with a valid ISIA stamp) work for short periods with your own groups in some regions / nations. Again you will need to apply to the region where you intend to work and make an application.

Setting up a snowsports school or working as an established independent instructor is a different matter and very complexed. Each nation will have its own laws to follow on this matter.

On the wider scene IASI are working in a positive direction with ISIA. Recently we had our qualification at the top level recognised to issue the ISIA card. We are already able to issue the ISIA stamp. We are now one of only 14 nations in ISIA (38 nations) and one of two English speaking nations (BASI are the other) who can issue this card. An amazing result for such a small association.

In May IASI will be attending the ISIA conference in Poland where we will continue to support ISIA and build strong links with the organisation.

It is important that European issues (for independent instructors) and International issues are not confused leading to conflict. We will respect and align our training to European nations that require specific modules, we will continue to work with ISIA to gain further employment opportunities on the global front for our members.

Pete Gillespie

IASI international Director

A snowHead

The statement below aims to address a couple of the rumours above - i.e. the grade 2s > 35 being granted Eurotest exemptions, and the deal negotiated by the Spanish.

As part of the original Eurotest negotiations process, Dave Renouf - Corporate & International Affairs Manager can confirm that BASI negotiated what are known as “grandfather rights” .
“Grandfather rights” are based on the recognition of what is more commonly recognised today as accredited prior learning (APL). The grandfather rights recognised people qualified to the highest level and who have been practising their profession for many years.
The grandfather rights were conferred to Members who were over 35 years of age and had already obtained their Grade 1 BASI qualification prior to 1989. These members were still required to undertake their Mountain Safety module.

The Spanish Deal – MoU Negotiations
Dave Renouf can also confirm that the Spanish have negotiated a deal as part of the MoU negotiations which are similar to the “Grandfather rights” BASI negotiated as part of the original Euro Test Agreement explained above.

I also asked Dave Renouf to consider the suggestion that the Eurotest requirement is based on a safety requirement. Dave is quite clear that the Eurotest is an objective tool (based on time) that provides evidence of your technical ability to perform in a mountain environment. The Mountain Safety Module is more relevant to demonstrate an individuals’ ability to perform safely in a range of mountain terrain and conditions.

Here is an extract from Dave’s article in the latest BASI news 105 (which is literally just out):
The Eurotest is an exam, and as
with all exams, the aim is to try to
be as consistent as possible for
each exam and each candidate,
whether doing an academic or
vocational exam. The aim of the
Eurotest exam, as one of many
elements within the various nations’
syllabi to qualify professional
snowsport instructors, is to:
• Have a system of measuring a
candidate’s ability, in an as
objective way as possible
(i.e. a time on the stop watch),
to perform movement patterns
appropriate to a professional
snowsport instructor (as defined
in the EU Commission’s
documentation on the Mutual
Recognition of Professional
Qualifications (MRPQ) directive).

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

red_sledge, From my experience the the ET fits your broad version pretty well already. All kinds of shapes, sizes and ages pass already.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

FlyingStantoni, come now be fair, I make tonnes of good points but all you can come back on is a light hearted glasses comment. Any extra allowance would discriminate against the rest and cause more issues! As all nations have agreed to this and passed the issue already it seems idiotic to repeat the process again and waste more members money!

Unless there are some reasons to have a age allowance, no decent reason has yet been given. That is not just my opinion but that of the Alpine Nations involved. There is no point repeating the same points again and again. I hope a bit of light hearted banter isn't too much to ask for hehe....

You'll need to Register first of course.

jjc james, that, mate, was the best point you made wink

Just because there's a cartel, it doesn't make it legal and I very much doubt that it would stand a legal challenge. The French seem to be determined to keep this out of the courts Happy

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

...anyway, I offer to buy you a beer and you ignore me. I'll just have to berate jjc instead!

After all it is free

FlyingStantoni, I think your misreading between the lines there buddy. Perhaps you've been on the beers without me!

We feature in the new BASI news people! Good article on calibration and a section on one of our successful trainees, check it out!

http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/BASI_NEWS_ISSUE_105_21Mar12.pdf

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

skimottaret, Would you be more motivated if we said one of our trainees who is 31 and has done a few weeks training with us was 0.4 out first attempt in St Christoph. How long it takes and how many ££ really depends on your starting point, the work put in, training/training location etc etc etc. It is all rather individual and depends on how much you want it also. Joe wanted it worked hard and now has it, he wont need to post on here Very Happy

The reality is if you can make the moves required and can ski at the level you will get the right time on the clock and the result you want in the end regardless of age, body composite etc etc. It is not likely to change, so if you want it, get motivated and get yourself up to the skill level. I hear Saas Fee has some good terrain Toofy Grin

snow reports

jjc, gotta finish my EMS first, pass the teach and then perhaps will start looking at glaciers seriously.... have to admit to buying a cat suit in the sales though wink

It does seem that the amount of time effort and money involved with passing the ET far far outweighs any other BASI modules and like a lot of things to do with the ET it doesn't feel right to me. WHy should training for and passing one test take the average candidate longer than everything else combined... motivation needs to be combined with practicality and this level of commitment can be hard to justify.

Joe might not Need to post here but it would be good to get his opinion on age allowances now that he has it in the bag (and again deep huge respect to him for sticking with it and passing) any chance of tempting him to contribute ?

jjc
I think you are missing something here even though it has been pointed out several times.

If an employer advertises a job and specifies that all applicants must be 5' 11" or taller then that is sex discrimination. It is not a defence to point out that the specification applies to both sexes and that there are indeed several women employed in that job. Neither is it a defence to say that there is a safety aspect to the job that relates to equipment stored above a certain height.

The Eurotest apparently represents one of your revenue streams - possibly not a very important one (or easily replaceable). But it does seem odd that you think it inviolable against an age discrimination charge and defend it in its current incarnation instead of thinking of ways in which it could be improved. Clearly, steps were taken to defend the Eurotest against a sex discrimination charge.

The job of a ski instructor is just that - a job. A market exists for the services provided by that job and it should be allowed to operate as a free market so that clients can choose the degree of training they want in their ski instructor and pay accordingly. In the say way, the ski instructors should be able to determine the level they wish to aspire to and seek qualification to be able to operate at that level. That is how most of the rest of the world operates - why is ski instruction any different?

At the top level it MIGHT be appropriate to have a timed test but the test should not act as barrier JUST because of a candidate's age or underlying physique. It's a job not a sporting competition.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

jjc james,

A snowHead

Bindingcheck, Laughing

A snowHead

But what about those without an allowance are they not discriminated against by having a harder test? This is the MAIN reason given for not even entertaining the idea of an age allowance. How you can justify treating one group of people differently with a Law that was made to give people equal opportunities to work is...... interesting logic to say the least.

But everyone seems to ignore this fundamental point when it is raised as it does not fit in with their end game.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Do the police have age allowances for their fitness module? If you want to qualify as a driving instructor (people love the driving instructor one) do you have to score less in your hazard perception and get a further distance/reaction time to emergency stop? I'm not convinced its breaking any laws. I'll admit I don't really know, but I'm not sure you do either binding check?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

jjc, poor choice of comparison on the Police fitness test as the test is specifically designed to take both sex and age into consideration.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

FlyingStantoni, The Test is based on what is expected of Police officers in the course of their normal duty and now is described as a 'job related fitness test' (JRFT) This JRFT makes no distinction between gender or age of the candidate, it is what is reasonably expected of every Police officer doing their duty.

That is from the website and the pdf on fitness shows no difference in result expected.

After all it is free

jjc, discrimination is legal if it has a legitimate objective that can't reasonably be met through any other mechanism. So, the requirement to reach safety equipment would be considered a legitimate objective as it would be considered unreasonable for short staff to use a step in the event of an emergency.

You'd have to delve into the proper stats, but i suspect that the BA requirements probably indirectly discriminate against women (minimum height) and men (maximum height).

Certain professions are also exempt from the legislation.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

jjc, if you read the background information it clearly states that both age and sex were taken into consideration when setting the test requirements. The police fitness test also takes into consideration roll so that an armed tactical officer has different fitness requirements than a normal bobby - beep tests of 10.5 and 5.4 respectively.

Help!!

Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees