 Poster: A snowHead
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No, system should be changed because being able to ski very, very fast on a GS course is in no way a reflection of:
A) Safety
B) Teaching ability
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| personally i would have multiple age handicaps that relate to current FIS masters age bands. if it is good enough for FIS why not the ET as the test is meant to be to strict FIS rules on homologated slopes |
The Masters age categories are just used to determine start order, they ensure that 95yo guys don't have to ski foot deep ruts, they are not any kind of handicapping system, if you are serious you look at the overall results anyway. This winter France has switched to starting the under 55s in seed point order which at least lets you aim at improving your start position from race to race.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Myth buster!!Euro test is only rquired to work in France. Fact! ISIA is recognised in almost every other skiing nation on the planet and with it you will be able to work. Now, idependently is another thing all together.
Fact - Hardest nation in Europe to open a ski school is Austria (top level with Euro test + Ski guide + business diploma) however, to work in a ski school is plan saliling with a BASI award. My son is ISIA and works in the hoff for 15 euro an hour (not as much as france but relative to cost of living).
With ISIA card you can take the Swiss conversion, or work in a ski school.
Dont think anything is going to change in France in the short or long term. Maybe worth instructors looking at other nations.#
PSG
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gilleski, While I accept that ISIA is 'globally' recognised, it's recognition in Europe seems to be in decline.
Italy is problematical, Spain \ Catalonia seem to be embarking on protectionism and anecdotal evidence from Instructors on here indicate that some Swiss regions are changing their policy. Not sure about Germany or if there are variations in acceptance among different Austrian regions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've heard a couple of different versions on the swiss situation and converting to patente qualification. One was you need to have L4 (and therefore the eurotest) to then do the conversion. The other is that the swiss have incorporated the isia version of the eurotest into the patente qualification from this season. So in theory an isia who also passed the isia speedtest could then do the patente conversion.
However I don't know which one is correct.
Anyone know definitively?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rungsp, to say very very fast is just a perception. Thousands are fast enough, i think i put a stat down on it somewhere in the 22 pages  .
Lets flip it on its head. Why would being a strong skier be a bad thing for teaching and safety? Especially if qualified to teach kids at etoile d'or level? I have seen some of them who might pass a eurotest
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| jjc james wrote: |
| FlyingStantoni, So should the system be changed simply because some people decide where they want to work before they have the ability to pass the qualifications to work there? |
jjc james yes. Absolutely.
Because the requirement is nothing to do with teaching or safety.
Replace the teaching module with something 2-3 weeks long that included an on-slope assessment for a season before sign-off. I'd be all for that.
To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with the BASI ISTD requiring a Eurotest. The problem I have is that BASI doesn't have the backbone to stand up for the right of perfectly competent British instructors to teach make a living from teaching in France, Italy or Austria.
There are actually two issues in here:
- right to work
- indirect age discrimination in a professional qualification.
Let's face it. What winds people up is the right to work. Which is what winds people up. A fundamental tenant of the EU is that someone can practice their profession in any other EU country and yet...
a qualified French engineer can build a bridge in the UK, but a qualified British ski instructor can't teach in France
a qualified French doctor can treat a sick person in the UK, but a qualified British ski instructor can't teach in France.
Which has more to do with safety? Let me pull the figures on the number of on-slope deaths of clients being taught by ski instructors...
The fact is that the Eurotest is everything to do with protectionism and nothing to do with ability to teach or to teach safely. History fans will know that the French actually introduced the original Test de Capacite to reserve ski instruction for people from the mountain regions - rather than the "filthy" Parisan incomers. All that's happened is that protectionism has been rolled over to incoming foreigners.
Let's be absolutely frank. (And, if we're being frank, few Trainers or Board members in BASI would agree that the Eurotest is anything to do with safety.)
If I rock on up to a ESF and book an instructor, I have a better than 50% chance that I'll get a Stagiere who hasn't passed their Eurotest. That is, "of course", fine because they can "only" teach for 3 years (unless, locally, they turn a blind eye) and it's obvious to everyone that it's teaching in your 4th year plus that you become really dangerous.
If, prior to you becoming qualified, I booked you or jjc for a lesson in Switzerland (or wherever you built your teaching hours) then you were "safe" there, but not in France, Italy or Austria. Really?
The thing that's really sad is the lack of willingness of BASI to push this through the courts. If they did then they'd win.
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| jjc wrote: |
| Why would being a strong skier be a bad thing for teaching and safety? |
It isn't. Except that you equate being a strong skier with skiing against a clock.
I'll go back to the driving instructor analogy. Why do you need every driving instructor to be able to drive Brands Hatch within 15% of the time that Lewis Hamilton can do it?
If you were to argue that you need a Eurotest to be a coach then I'd agree with you. But, ironically, it's easier to coach in France than it is to teach.
Take Lynne Sharpe (and what lovely person and great skier she is) - head coach of the academy in Chamonix despite not being qualified as ISTD.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The sad thing about this is that the ISTDs who protect the status quo are actually the ones who really suffer in not being able to build and develop ski schools that include non-ISTD instructors.
Let's take BASS Morzine, who I know well. They have some of the best skiers you could wish to encounter (jjc included). There are something like 8 BASI Trainers who work for them and yet they aren't allowed to hire their own Stagieres because their own "equivalence" isn't, well, considered equivalent enough to allow them to take trainees.
Both jjc and jjc james are actually limiting their own potential through protecting the status quo.
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| Quote: |
Both jjc and jjc james are actually limiting their own potential through protecting the status quo.
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Nice idea but lets be honest no Brit ski schools have the size to realistically keep an eye on " stagiers". Plus there would be 3 ISTD's and 7 stagiers doing the same amount of work. Same argument, why employ an ISTD when you can have a half price worker? Only the french schools are large enough to sustain that system. BASS would essentially turn into a ISIA Ski School concept. Directors that rake it in and everyone else is on 15€ per hour, as stated above. Trust me limiting potential is not what I do, I wouldn't be where I am if I did!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The whole driving thing really is a bad comparison. They are completely different sports so the same % cant be used to measure ability.
I can count to 10 and spell dog, so should be alright getting qualified teaching 5 year olds. If i went to uni for 4 years and became qualified to do that should i automatically also be qualified to teach A level maths and english or be let loose at all level in all subjects in the academic world? I think i demonstrate through my ability to write on here that might not be the best thing for aspiring authors 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jjc james wrote: |
| Nice idea but lets be honest no Brit ski schools have the size to realistically keep an eye on " stagiers". Plus there would be 3 ISTD's and 7 stagiers doing the same amount of work. Same argument, why employ an ISTD when you can have a half price worker? Only the french schools are large enough to sustain that system. BASS would essentially turn into a ISIA Ski School concept. Directors that rake it in and everyone else is on 15€ per hour, as stated above. Trust me limiting potential is not what I do, I wouldn't be where I am if I did! |
Ah, so suddenly it's about money? (It has, of course, been about money all along!)
Your thinking is fundamentally flawed. You assume that demand is static (number of people wanting lessons of British ski schools) and supply (number of British ski instructors) varies. Hence driving down income.
In reality British ski schools are limited in size by the availability of British ski instructors and by (your) aspiration - not by demand. (Actually, and by the aspiration of BASI. Never once have I read a ski magazine or tour operator brochure and seen a full page advert from BASI saying "Did you know that you could have lessons off a native English-speaking instructor on your holiday?".)
That's why, when an British ISTD qualifies they are courted to join a ski school.
Again, take Morzine, do you really think that the numerous holidaymakers would prefer a French ski instructor or a native English-speaking one? But if the Viking hotel right next to where BASS meets were to send all their holidaymakers there then BASS currently couldn't cope.
You could be that director "raking it in". But by supporting the system you choose not to be.
You see the 40-50 euros an hour you currently get. You don't see that you could be running a ski school of 50, with each of those 50 giving you and additional 5 euros an hour each.
That, my friend, is lack of aspiration.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jjc wrote: |
| The whole driving thing really is a bad comparison. |
No it's not.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The whole a french doctor can work in England stuff is flawed also. When do you become a 'ski instructor'. Level 1? should a level 1 be able to go into france and set up a ski school and do what they want?
France see it as level 4, until then you are training. So they are allowing what they class as 'ski instructors' to work in their country. You can work in France as a stagier with a level 2, the same as the French, so again there not stopping 'qualified' ski instructors. I wouldn't be happy if i went to the doctors and my doctor was someone who came from a country where they were qualified for knowing the names of the body parts and could then freely work anywhere,,would you? I am sure there are measures for such a situation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jjc wrote: |
The whole a french doctor can work in England stuff is flawed also. When do you become a 'ski instructor'. Level 1? should a level 1 be able to go into france and set up a ski school and do what they want?
France see it as level 4, until then you are training. So they are allowing what they class as 'ski instructors' to work in their country. You can work in France as a stagier with a level 2, the same as the French, so again there not stopping 'qualified' ski instructors. I wouldn't be happy if i went to the doctors and my doctor was someone who came from a country where they were qualified for knowing the names of the body parts and could then freely work anywhere,,would you? I am sure there are measures for such a situation. |
The French doctor thing is not flawed. They can and do. There is no UK test for the number of patients treated per hour.
A Level 1 is qualified to do what a Level 1 is qualified to do. Teach indoors.
If a British Level 2 can teach outdoors in Scotland, Switzerland or France (as a Stagiere) then they are safe to teach outdoors. (Don't get me started on the teaching level for Level 2.)
It's "our Europe", not their country in terms of the law.
EU law is very clear that countries cannot stop a qualified professional working in their country without a derogation. The French were granted a derogation based on safety.
Speed is not a proxy for safety.
Speed might be a proxy for skiing skill. But skiing skill is not a proxy for teaching ability or the ability needed to teach at a level.
Answer me this. Why is a L2 ski instructor considered safe to teach in France for 3 years without a Eurotest, but considered unsafe in year 4? Because, and I repeat again, the derogation is on the grounds of safety. Not ability.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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no, what i am suggesting is a primary school qualified teacher would not be let loose at a higher level, and they cant. If you look back to page 3 ish i say i do not see a problem in allowing level 2 etc to teach at the level they are able to, just not be let loose at all levels. It means the quality is maintained and standards do not drop for higher margins.
I am sure someone who is great at physics and can teach it will be better for high level students rather than someone who is great at teaching but only knows the basics? Again that is what i am attempting to say, someone who knows and can teach basic physics at GCSE level but is not great on rocket science wouldn't get a job lecturing future cern employees at university level. Thats why an ISTD is assessed on teaching and skiing to a certain standard and the ET side really is not a unbelievable standard.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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They have to do a test technique as entry before they can be a stagier, its a good test of skill level.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jjc wrote: |
| ...and the ET side really is not a unbelievable standard. |
I agreed with you right up until that point.
You're correct, Level 2s can and do teach in France.
BASI's lack of backbone means that they can only teach for a French ski school, not a British one. Who is the loser? The British ski school.
Your and jjc james argument is that everyone should be qualified as a university professor - even though you mainly teach primary school - just in case you need to teach someone who is university level.
IMHO most people who take lessons with BASS Morzine don't understand the quality they're getting. And it's because you don't tell them.
If I go a hairdresser then I can book a junior for £x or the salon owner for £xxx. If I have a ski lesson then you only sell me £xx - because you think it's all the market will bear.
MrsFS is making curtains for someone who is spending £35k on the cinema room in their chalet. That type of person would spend £xxxx if they knew what they were getting.
And, BTW, I repeat the question. What makes someone who is a Level 2 "safe" to teach for 3 years under supervision, but unsafe in year 4 with the same supervision?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jjc wrote: |
| They have to do a test technique as entry before they can be a stagier, its a good test of skill level. |
They do. We don't.
I refer the honourable gentleman back to EU law, which says that if I am professionally allowed to do something recognised as a profession in the UK then there should be no barrier to me practising that profession in the rest of Europe.
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British guys do have to do a test technique to work as a stagier in France.
I understand the whole EU law stuff and am not really qualified to comment. I am just putting across my point that i think the French system is good and benefits both the instructors and the clients and that the ET is a worthy module in that qualification. If it is to become a single qualification across europe that is recognised then i think the French system is a good one to follow.
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| jjc wrote: |
British guys do have to do a test technique to work as a stagier in France.
I understand the whole EU law stuff and am not really qualified to comment. I am just putting across my point that i think the French system is good and benefits both the instructors and the clients and that the ET is a worthy module in that qualification. If it is to become a single qualification across europe that is recognised then i think the French system is a good one to follow. |
The point I'm making is that a L2 doesn't need the Test Technique to work in the UK, so shouldn't need it in France.
I must admit that I don't know on what basis the French model is a good one.
If I turn up as a punter then I don't have any guarantee of quality or ability because I could get a full cert or I could get a stagiere. What a full cert guarantees is either someone who can ski fast, but not necessarily teach well at all / in my own language.
There is no ongoing assessment of either technique nor teaching ability - so once you're in you're in. Which is why you see doddery old blokes wheeled out at peak times.
If you look on the slopes at most of the ESF instructors leading groups they ski with absolutely shocking technique.
Where's the quality in depth?
I don't doubt that there are some great instructors in ESF, but it's a complete lottery.
One thing I think you confuse is qualification with ongoing ability to teach. If anyone in Europe cared about ski teaching or safety then qualification as a ski instructor would be subject to a proper period of supervision (more like guides and nothing like ESF) and both would be periodically re-assessed from time to time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FlyingStantoni,
| Quote: |
To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with the BASI ISTD requiring a Eurotest. The problem I have is that BASI doesn't have the backbone to stand up for the right of perfectly competent British instructors to teach make a living from teaching in France, Italy or Austria.
There are actually two issues in here:
- right to work
- indirect age discrimination in a professional qualification.
Let's face it. What winds people up is the right to work. Which is what winds people up. A fundamental tenant of the EU is that someone can practice their profession in any other EU country and yet... |
+1
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jjc,
Apparently (according to a government report) in England & Wales you don’t need to count up to 10 and spell dog to be able to teach 5 year olds. Perhaps an alternative career beckons 
The first 6/7 sentences from the BBC link gives the gist of the report.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17496323
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My, my.... this is exciting. The thread was hibernating for almost 2 months and has suddenly sprung to life. Might have been my post but more likely the season is coming to an end and people have a bit more time to spare. 
Speaking of the season coming to an end. Perhaps some of this stuff should be brought up at the members' forum which usually follows the General Meeting (Hintertux in April). It's too late now to table a motion for the General Meeting.
While the notion of a members forum has existed for the past few General Meetings apart from the members present at those meeting (Geneva Airport?, that location is a bit exclusive, ie. it excludes the vast majority of the membership) no one really knows what (if anything) was raised. Might be a good idea to request that the comments raised at that forum are noted and published in the BASI newsletter, at least that way the rest of the membership would be aware that some members had concerns over certain issues.
Beanie1
Why is it necessary that I contact the Board?
Skimottaret
A lot of the stuff about 'exemptions' is inaccurate rumour. But on the subject of the Spanish - my reading of the documents does not lead me to believe that the exemption is in any way age related. This could give BASI a bargaining lever with FEMPS - if they were steely enough to try.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jjc wrote: |
British guys do have to do a test technique to work as a stagier in France.
I understand the whole EU law stuff and am not really qualified to comment. I am just putting across my point that i think the French system is good and benefits both the instructors and the clients and that the ET is a worthy module in that qualification. If it is to become a single qualification across europe that is recognised then i think the French system is a good one to follow. |
Your last point is a very interesting one: "If it is to become a single qualification across europe that is recognised then i think the French system is a good one to follow"
If that was to happen then BASI might as well pack up and sell off its assets.
If only ISTDs were able to earn a crust teaching skiing then bang goes the vast majority of BASIs membership fees and course revenue.
Although many (if not most) of those that qualify to BASI 1 and BASI 2 never go on to teach (90% of all those Gappies for a start) if they knew from day 1 that all that money and effort would be spent on a qualification that was utterly useless.....well they simply would not do it.
If you want to have a feel for how many BASI 2 really want to go on further then I would point to the fact that for ISIA (to beome useless too??) that BASI only run one Common Theory course per year with about 35 people on it.
How many full ISTDs per year are added to the roster through BASI?
Not many.
Certainly not enough to make BASI viable in anything like its current form.
Certainly not enough to enable BASI to have a seat at the big table with the other major countries when deciding policies.
[quote="jjc"], you probably think that making the French model the norm for europe will help your business, I think the reverse is true, it could kill it over a few years as there simply won't be a viable pool of lower BASI 2 and ISIA people being generated. Bear in mind that to get to ISIA costs several thousand pounds in course fees and associated costs, not to mention the time and effort.
Just to get to BASI 2, not as a GAP course, the cheapest possible method would be:
BASI 1 course (at a snowdome) £510
Fist Aid Course £120
Child Safety £35
BASI 2 (Hintertux) £535
Associated flights, hotel, lift pass £1000
Total £2,200 plus 70 hours of unpaid work shadowing
In your world = worthless.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 29-03-12 10:43; edited 1 time in total
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Bindingcheck,
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Beanie1
Why is it necessary that I contact the Board?
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You appear to have a lot of concerns about this issue. If you give the office a call, or write to the Board, they will discuss with you.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, Should we not discuss and debate BASI politics in the open? Being cynical for a moment, 25 members wrote to the board and it took 8 months to get a formal reply. Is that the way we should discuss matters of vital importance to the membership, by letter and counter letter while decisions are being taken on our behalf?
The members forum at AGM is good for asking questions but limited in its usefulness as a mechanism for debate.
It is only through these open forum discussions that people like Bindingcheck are able to speak their mind anonymously without fear of being blackballed. I applaud the JJC's for contributing but other than them and Gilleski no ISTD's / BASI employees have dared to speak their mind.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rungsp, Spot on - it's the worthless bit that should deter many thinking critically from ever starting a BASI teaching route. I have tremendous respect for those who have managed to carve themselves a niche without (I'm guessing) the realistic prospect of ever getting ISTD under the current rules and totally understand the indignation that many BASI members obviously feel that their own body doesn't have the appetite for giving them more options and would rather doff its cap to the "real" alpine nations to be allowed in the same room.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 29-03-12 13:50; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1,
Could the "Board" not respond on this forum?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| Take Lynne Sharpe (and what lovely person and great skier she is) - head coach of the academy in Chamonix despite not being qualified as ISTD. |
I have been on courses with most of the coaches at BSA including Lynne, they are all working through the BASI system, I don't think you can accuse them of not conforming to the French system. In any case they are working as club coaches not instructors for hire.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bindingcheck,
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Could the "Board" not respond on this forum?
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How do you know they haven't?
FlyingStantoni,
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You see the 40-50 euros an hour you currently get. You don't see that you could be running a ski school of 50, with each of those 50 giving you and additional 5 euros an hour each.
That, my friend, is lack of aspiration.
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You answer the why not here...
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If you look on the slopes at most of the ESF instructors leading groups they ski with absolutely shocking technique.
Where's the quality in depth?
I don't doubt that there are some great instructors in ESF, but it's a complete lottery.
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It will all be sorted in a few years when the old boys retire and everyone has a Eurotest, all will be able to ski well and that is one of the reasons an "Age Allowance" will never come in. The french know about the old boys that still turn up teach and go home for the $$$ but are not really a good example to learners. The Eurotest gets rid of the technique issue and teaching can be learned on the job, technique won't be. Some will end up better teachers than others but the quality of a teacher is all opinion anyway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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When a professional organisation comes under fire from those it seeks to represent then I think it is expedient for that organisation to question the status quo and move in the direction to best serve all the members whilst providing a transparent and professional service to the client base. Otherwise there is a real possibility that things may change to the detriment of all the members and the clients.
It would be interesting to know about similar threads running in France (and in the other European countries affected by the 'downgrading' of ISIA).
I assume the French derogation is subject to review under EU law?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have done a little digging and have found that the EU Green Paper "Modernising the Professional Qualifications Directive" that BASI was reluctant to publish a year ago is now in the Public domain as well as the replies from various public and competent authorities including BASI.
As this directive is all encompassing for hundreds of professions it is broad in nature but the reply of BASI's and Belgium are worth taking a look at especially the Belgium reply to Question 5.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, nice work!
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skimottaret, Ha ha. The Belgians didn't pull any punches when referring to the nefarious activities of their beloved neighbours.
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jjc james,
As far as I can see (read) no-one claiming to represent the Board has responded to the points I (and others) have raised.
I sort of understand your point about what you term the 'old boys', their time left on skis is limited but as most of them are Syndicat they will still have influence and income. BUT these 'old boys' don't need to do the Eurotest as they are already 'in' so the age allowance for them is irrelevant. So if that is the reason that the French are resisting it then the reasoning is non-sensical.
The question which is being debated shouldn't be a political one it should be an 'is it fair' one.
You are familiar with the 10,000 hour theory, it explains why your skiing is so good and you were fortunate enough to start clocking up the hours when you were relatively young. Where an age allowance does become relevant is for a performer who started his/her 10,000 hrs at an older age. They will still need the 10,000 hrs to achieve that level of skill but their ability to replicate those high level skills in a Eurotest environment will always be compromised by physiological degredation.
There are multiple physiological reasons but take the example of eyesight. In a dynamic activity such as GS racing the time gap between gates is, for example, 1 second while traveling at 35+ mph. Visual perception is remarkably complex but put simply the ability of ones eyes to continually refocus gets worse as one gets older which means that before ones brain works out what technique to use and then starts sending the message to ones 'body' the older skier is a fraction of a second behind the dashing young blades such as yourself.
Technically the 'older' skier and the dashing young blade such as yourself could be equals but physiologically they are not equals. And no amount of "training and dedication", to quote from the Chairman's letter, will change the physiological facts.
Is that fair? 
My own opinion is that a race test is a really important component of a ski instructor's skill set.
As far as I can see no-one is asking for a give away, they are asking for an allowance commensurate with the facts of life.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, Good work.
The Belgium reply, Page 4 makes for interesting reading....
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sadly slightly less interesting reading is that it seems to me the concensus is that it will take only 9 countries to make this EU law (as it it not relevent to the whole community) 9 minor countries/ associations could be persuaded to keep the status quo with a "Spanish" concession
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