1) Most people that do the ISIA eventually go on to pass their ISTD
I'd be interested to see the prior year membership stats to confirm that.
Quote:
3) ISIA as a standalone qualification has limited merit / benefit. Especially if you don't want to teach skiing as a career..
I agree, and it's a shame. Certainly my perception until recently was that the ISIA qualification had wider recognition & provided improved work opportunities in Europe over say the Level 2 qualification.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FlyingStantoni wrote:
Philbo wrote:
Many of those (not all, but some of whom I know) who are deriding the eurotest and citing it as an obstacle have yet to pass the other modules for the ISTD such as the tech, which requests a high level of skiing on it's own.
To me, it seems odd to question the validity of a test, citing it as an obstacle (be it due to age, ability or whatever) when, realistically, it only becomes such when all other modules are complete.
I don't agree with your assertion Philbo.
The true measure isn't the number who are stuck with the Eurotest as the last thing - it's the number that did ISIA, but never started ISTD because they didn't believe it worth starting a journey they had no realistic prospect of finishing.
If the Eurotest has a place anywhere it's in the coaching stream.
I agree with the fact that the place for the Eurotest should probably be in the coaching stream.
I disagree with citing the Eurotest as the obstacle if there are still modules to be completed. I believe that the ISTD technical module would be just as much of an obstacle to many who are deriding the Eurotest on here, but there are nowhere near that many people complaining about the standard required to pass this, or suggesting that it should also be age handicapped.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
david@mediacopy, There are 298 ISTD compared to only 145 ISIA. I imagine a fair chunk of the 145 are working through their ISTD I know a fair few that wont have a problem with the ET, are exempt or are training hard for it and making the right steps.
I think it is a reletively small number stopping at ISIA and never having a crack at ISTD.
I get the impression also that most citing the Eurotest as a huge obstacle are doing so based on hear say, quite a bit of which is nonsense and are yet to have tried it themselves. (might be wrong)
Philbo, Is right in the sense that if you can pass your ISTD tech then there is a big chance you will pass the ET. The Teach and EMS are also harder than ISIA modules so it is a whole level up not just one module (ET) that is a step up.
If the true measure is at which point the candidates decide not to go any futher then we surely need to cap it at level 2 because there is 2066 of them.
I think the true measure is the quality of instructors the system is producing and how that compares world wide. I think it is also important we are looking for an increaced % each year of candidates reaching that level.
Philbo, Is right in the sense that if you can pass your ISTD tech then there is a big chance you will pass the ET. The Teach and EMS are also harder than ISIA modules so it is a whole level up not just one module (ET) that is a step up.
I'd say that, if you are of the level to pass your ISTD tech then it is more likely that you will be versatile enough to pass the Eurotest, albeit with some specific training if you haven't done any racing at all.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
get the impression also that most citing the Eurotest as a huge obstacle are doing so based on hear say
jjc, perhaps... it would be good to determine and understand the facts. What do we actually know?
The ISTD/ET has been in place for 10 years an that there are 298 ISTDs as of Aug '10, HOWEVER it was reported around the same time in the BASI news that 110 people have passed the ET. There are probably a a couple dozen exemptions for ex racers who are now openers, coach trainers and a few others. Lets be generous and estimate 40 exemptions. That gives around 150 ET passes/exemptions over the last 10 years. There are also a fair few that passed the old Capa before the ET was introduced..
? Can BASI confirm how many ISTDs' have passed the ET per year, how many got ET exemptions through FIS points
? How many people have passed the ISTD technical in the same time period? the numbers of passes for each course used to be listed in the basi annual report, it isnt any longer. I would guess it is a lot higher than 150 over ten years but that is a guess and heresay
In my experience i would say that only the top 1/4 or so move on from each level to go and pass the next level, the rest stay where they are at either because they are happy with an L1, L2 L3 , they dont have the time or money to go further or have reached their own personal performance level. there are huge numbers of L1's who pass there exam and never complete the award and loads of gappies that get their L2's and drop out after a year.
EDITED to add Capa passes...
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 9-06-11 12:54; edited 1 time in total
skimottaret, I can think of several people who passed the old "capa" before the Eurotest was introduced, I would count them along with the ones who have passed the Eurotest.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs, good point, i was just trying to work out the actual facts of ET passes versus Tech passes since the ISTD has come into force... Have edited my post tah.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
In BASI there are 3x as many ISTD as ISIA's.
That says several things...
1) Most people that do the ISIA eventually go on to pass their ISTD
2) If you pass the ISTD technical modules then you will probably manage the euro test (perhaps with some training).
3) ISIA as a standalone qualification has limited merit / benefit. Especially if you don't want to teach skiing as a career..
I think you need to view these stats in context of the history of BASI levels. Old grade 1s were previously the ISIA level within BASI. When ISTD was introduced above grade 1, pre-2000 to upgrade the grade 1s only had to register. I expect that distorts the relative numbers at each level.
I also think it's somewhat unfair to say the ISIA is not useful. Sure, it's not useful in France. But it is surely useful elsewhere in Europe both in applying for jobs and getting paid better. It's definitely useful in Australasia and N. America, where it can help with getting a visa.
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skimottaret, Do you want your ISTD?
I believe you do, so i am going to be blunt but hopefully you will see it as fair and take it with its true intention which is to help!
If you truly want it then all these numbers are irrelevant to you. You need to focus on the factors that you have control over and not what everyone else is doing. If you have a good skiing base and work hard then you can pass it, the test is not easy but far from impossible or unfair.
If 1 million candidates have failed because they have neglected the key elements that go into passing or are not up to scratch that shouldn't matter to you. What should matter is what you can do to ensure you do pass and learning from those that have already.
Your energy would be better spent in the gym, getting hold of the right equipment and waxing them up to be as fast as possible and making sure you have left it all on the hill when you cross the finish line.
If you believe it is impossible and get caught up in all the negatives you will just become another statistic. The truth is the British pass rates are low because a lot of things are being done badly!
If you went to one of the tests where the pass rate is high then i think you would find the attitude, focus and approach of the foreign candidates very different.
If you never give it a go based on all these misconceptions of the test and stats which are only representative of a BASI candidates and not skiers/ski instructor’s world wide then that would be a real shame.
Looking at the standard of the large numbers finishing their ISIA at the moment i think you will see a big increase in ISTD's over the next decade, which can only be seen as a positive thing. I can think of 16 off the top of my head currently working through who are exempt + a fair few who have it but are yet to finish their ISTD + lots who i am confident are going to pass it so without focusing on the past and looking into the future everything is moving the right way.
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Also the IVSI looks like it could become obsolete, I've heard the French are in the process of closing that coaching loop hole. (not confirmed)
Hence why the home nations have been shadowing basi coaching qualifications with the idea to make it the national standard.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
beanie1,
Quote:
Sure, it's not useful in France
It is still quite useful in France, better pay, less to do before your time runs out, discounted lift passes.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
jjc, this thread seems to be generating a lot of spin offs, we chatted about motivation and how to train back on page 4. Perhaps it should try to focus on the Eurotest... To answer you question do i want an ISTD the answer WAS no but now looks like if i want to continue to do what i enjoy doing i may HAVE to do it. My goal was to get to ISIA level which is what i thought going in was right for me... When i went into this instructor education and training stuff a few years ago i had no idea about all the issues about where you can work with different levels, race tests, how difficult each level was etc.
I, like most new people interested in becoming an instructor looked at the BASI site and thought cool a level 2 lets me work in the mountains, an L3 lets me work internationally and I thought that the ET was the final hurdle to become an ISTD which was for a guru status so you can work independently. It wasnt until i got to training for my ISIA tech that I learned that the ISTD tech is as hard or harder than the ET... NOBODY tells you this when you start out in BASI and NOBODY tells you that work is highly restricted and bears little resemblance to BASI website.
So should i just shut up and ski? train for 6 months in the gym and then 6 months on a glacier so that i may be allowed to continue working or should i also try to do something about what i perceive as an unfair test and get the word out that if you start as an instructor be aware of what you are letting yourself in for and how high the bar is set.. I am doing the latter and if I end up living in the mountains instead of ski teaching part time i may do the former.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
To answer you question do i want an ISTD the answer WAS no but now looks like if i want to continue to do what i enjoy doing i may HAVE to do it.
So the answer is yes....Saying i have to and wanting it is much the same thing. I dont want to spend money and time on courses either but it is neccesary to meet the criteria and PROVE I can do the job I want.
Quote:
NOBODY tells you this when you start out in BASI and NOBODY tells you that work is highly restricted and bears little resemblance to BASI website.
That is because it's not highly restricted, James has pointed out several times he has had the same job with the ESF in the mountains as a level 2, ISIA and ISTD You can work anywhere in the world with your qualification other than France after several years.
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So should i just shut up and ski?
yes!!! (written with a big smile on my face and in good humor)
Quote:
what i perceive as an unfair test
These are the key words!! It is not fact, and a large portion of what has been said between page 1 and 19 is completely untrue and by "getting the word out" could be damaging to some candidates who stand a really good chance. You might just be evidence of someone who could pass but has been put off by a bunch of info made up by those to proud to admit that their downfall at a test could be anything to do with their own preperation or performance.
a test that 15000 + could pass really says it all about how high the bar is set.
skimottaret, considering that the topic is "interesting news regarding the ET" the fact that the ET will be needed to coach in future is about as relevant as possible really. Perhaps someone can start a new thread on it, some people do love starting new threads!
jjc, no better pay for me on the ISIA at the ESF and no discount in Morzine this season for those with ISIA's as france doesn't recognise it!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jjc james wrote:
skimottaret, considering that the topic is "interesting news regarding the ET" the fact that the ET will be needed to coach in future is about as relevant as possible really.
I see plenty of French club coaches at CIT races who are clearly not BEES1 standard, are they really going to be banned from the hill in future ?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rjs, Good question, i bet being in the "system" in the same way as the instructing (Test Tech) will be the answer. Probably a direct port of the instructor system.
But remember this is not confirmed and could happen next week, never, 2 years time etc.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jjc james, The guys in courchevel said the pay went up for ISIA by 10 euro per hour and in the other thread about the ISIA licencse some resorts in France were named to give dicounted lift tickets like Val D if i remember rightly.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
New news on ski lengths in FIS regulations could impact the ET rules somewhere down the line.
The new regs state that after next season GS skis will be 195cm long with a 40m turning radius (jesus!).
Could be something to note for those passing through the system looking to do the ET in the future.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rjs, almost every guy opening will be on 191-193cm with a 27cm radius. I tried 21 but found the move up to 27 helped me alot.
After all it is free
After all it is free
An Update from BASI is that after receiving the group letter the Legal Director was instructed by the Board of BASI to get an external legal opinion on the matter. The advice given was to draft a letter to the members regarding Age discrimination and the Legal Director is to arrange for this to be done and to report back to the board.
I am hopeful this will be part of the agenda at the next BASI board meeting which I believe is in October...
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Does New Zealand meet the ISIA minimum standard for the ISIA card?
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Crusader, perhaps you could start another thread for that, this discussion is about the Eurotest...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Crusader, no, the NZSIA level 3 can be ISIA stamp (with extra courses), but there is no race, so no card.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, thanks for the suggestion. I believe it was you who gave the list of countries which achieved ISIA minimum standard and it was you who mentioned that USA, Canada and Australia do not. I was following up.
jimmer. Thanks for the clarification.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Some footage of what GS skiing might be like in the future from a guy who placed top 30 WC last season!! Hopefully these rules will not apply to the ET for a while as then i would have to agree it becomes far more about brute strength! best get down the gym for some squats http://youtube.com/v/76yYnVgbx98&sns=fb
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Looks Horrid!!!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Yuck, that's awful. Pivoted steering angle for nearly every turn. It is indeed horrid!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I am sure most BASI members will have seen the recent communication but for non members here is a Statement from the Board
I think Eurotest pass as in Italy before taking BASI level 1 is an excellent idea.
Why? This would mean that very few UK based people, who only plan to teach in the UK domes / Dry slopes would take this path. It makes a massive barrier to entry !
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
yes the idea of having to do the Eurotest before taking the L1 is not really applicable for us Brits - it just would not work. When the Italians have thousands and thousands wanting to get in the front door and teach on their mountains then they put the barrier to entry at the front end - as Brits we need to encourage people to train and improve and if they like the who ski instructing thing and want to move into Europe to teach then of course take the Eurotest and get fully cert.
As far as raising the fee to £150 per Eurotest I think this is a poor decision BASI have made. The letter was an interesting read and I shall look to see how I can vote at the AGM via email as I shall not be able to go in person.
The cost of sending two openers and a TD to each Eurotest surely can't be that much that the fee needs to raise to £150 per person - I believe the hosting nation should be pushed to pay this fee not the attendees.... after all they are paying for their own delegates to go AND it is European test not an Italian or French test..... 'with other nationalities welcome to attend if they pay enough!'
The indoor and dry slope instructor could still go down the ASSI Coach route as both are higher qualification than L1, then Eurotest before L2 and possibly revert to the 1980s BASI rule of having to be under 35 to start?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
^ first I've heard of a pre-80s rule about having to be under 35 to start, seriously?
This thread has touched on age discrimination before and it strikes me that if BASI implemented such a restriction it really would open them up to being sued for discrimination so that idea seems completely unworkable to me!
After all it is free
After all it is free
perhaps BASI would do themselves better by just saying.... 'passing the Eurotest / L4 is better suited to younger persons due to the high level of physical fitness / versatility and flexibility etc, that is required' that way those over 35 (or whatever age is chosen in the wording) starting on the road know from the outset that it is tough going / nigh on impossible if you are over 35 when starting your journey. That will also cover BASI's back so they can see - 'we told you so.' BUt it may also encourage more younger persons to embark on the road and consider taking it far enough at a young enough age to make the grade. But having a RULE is a step to far - just wise words perhaps to the reader!
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Steve Angus wrote:
...nigh on impossible if you are over 35 when starting your journey...
I accept the challenge!! Hopefully I will be able to get to the required level in the next 2/3 years!
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
I accept the challenge!! Hopefully I will be able to get to the required level in the next 2/3 years!
Good on you - good luck... I made the choice to aim for ISTD when I was about 26 and passed my Eurotest when I was 28 and the L4 tech when I was 31 - never regretted it - the best job in the world!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
but hopefully you will see it as fair and take it with its true intention which is to help!
You can work anywhere in the world with your qualification other than France after several years.
(written with a big smile on my face and in good humor)
I accept the challenge!! Hopefully I will be able to get to the required level in the next 2/3 years!