 Poster: A snowHead
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Peter Beaumont, in today's Observer, looks at the issue of hit-and-run deaths and injuries on the slopes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/01/austria-skiing-casualties-helmet-legislation
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| Very cold conditions have created much faster pistes, making collisions far more severe. |
Is this true, or really a significant characteristic of this winter? I'd put it down to a combination of poor technical skills and faster equipment, and obviously people (probably knowingly) skiing well outside their own abilities to brake in time.
This interviewee on James Cove's planetski.eu reckons that others are skiing faster because they're wearing helmets:
http://www.planetski.eu/videos [top video on page]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Maybe people are skiing faster because of faster grippier skis, maybe people are skiing faster because of better waxing, maybe people are skiing faster because.....
Cant say ive really noticed people charging anymore than usual... journalists are usually wrong. Makes better reading i suppose.
Wearing a helmet doesnt make me ski any faster, in exactly the same way that wearing a seatbelt or having having ABS in my car doesnt cause me to drive any faster or more recklessly. 5% of people (read idiots) might increase their speed when wearing a helmet in the same way that 5% of people on the road drive at 100mph+ in fog and rain, but for the vast majority helmets just make everyones holiday more enjoyable by avoiding injury, whether thats a bump on the hardpack or a high speed collision.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sps89, I think people do ski (or drive) faster if they have 'safety cocoons', safety accessories or faster vehicles at their disposal. I suspect that the video-interviewee above may be correct that helmeted skiers (in general) go faster than they did before they bought helmets - I seem to recall reading scientific studies demonstrating this sort of phenomenon. The other hugely significant factor (not new) on the slopes is the smoothing of the pistes.
Let's vote for fog - it slows down skiers and drivers.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
sps89, I think people do ski (or drive) faster if they have 'safety cocoons', safety accessories or faster vehicles at their disposal. I suspect that the video-interviewee above may be correct that helmeted skiers (in general) go faster than they did before they bought helmets - I seem to recall reading scientific studies demonstrating this sort of phenomenon. The other hugely significant factor (not new) on the slopes is the smoothing of the pistes.
Let's vote for fog - it slows down skiers and drivers. |
I think people ski faster if their equipment/terrain allows them to ski faster. I don't buy the helmet/safety gear connection with speed though. I've seen plenty of reckless skiers, mountain bikers etc wearing no safety gear whatsoever. Plus I don't believe a word of most journalists, particularly not ones from the general press. They only write to impress their boss and don't care about the actual content.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We're just back from Ischgl and I would have to say that the home run number 1 (like Route 1 out of New York) is a pretty hairy run indeed, purely due to the number of people that ski down it at the end of the day. It was a mass of people and you had to keep your line and keep your speed consistent. And everyone was travelling at a reasonable speed.
I think a lot of accidents have been because of the amount of snow -- causing poor visiblity, mogulled runs etc. You need to be a better/more confident skier in these conditions.
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| sps89 wrote: |
| ......Cant say ive really noticed people charging anymore than usual... |
I'd say it's getting worse each year on piste. In January I found myself thinking quite hard about the risk of being clobbered by out-of-control skiers from above, especially on steep slopes - and the home run.
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| Wearing a helmet doesnt make me ski any faster. |
You hare a pillar of virtue. But judging by the touching faith I have seen by a lot of sHs in helmets for preventing high-speed injury, I think there is a risk that many helmet-wearers ski faster than they would were they not wearing one. As I do not have faith in my helmet doing much if anything for me at high speed, that doesn't apply to me, of course. 
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achilles, I tend to ski faster when I'm with a group of friends than on my own. I'm guessing from human nature, this is the same for most people. Wearing a helmet or not is of no consequence IMHO
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Injuries on the slopes in the area where I live in Austria , has been to see an increase in head injuries , but a decrease in limb breaks etc. I was given this information by the hospital in Zell am See, who were telling one of my guests with a broken limb, that she would have been dead without her helmet.
However my observation in general is that our guests seem to arrive and think 3 days ski school is enough. When I learned to ski ( 1980 ) I went on package holidays where you joined a ski school as the norm and stayed in it for the whole week , with race day on friday followed by a certificate presentation. Each year you did a little test on day 1 and slotted into a ski school group, sometimes moving up or down depending on how you got on.
Now our guests arrive independently which is much more common, and I usually book them into ski school. Without exception most seem to book for 3 days, saying they think that will be enough, especially as they had a couple of sessions at a snow dome in the UK.  The price for the 4th or 5th day is only 10€ per day more so it is not a price issue, as 5 full days for € 155 is a lot better value than 3 full days at € 135. Then after 3 days and 2 sessions in UK they think they can ski all the mountain in any conditions. If you ask them if they need to think about renting a helmet , the usual reply is " do you really think I need one " .Newcomers to skiing have no idea how conditions change constantly, visibility problems, ice, soft snow , lumps and bumps, busy pistes etc etc. Once they have lost the security and comfort blanket of the instructor I hear stories of how they did the red number x or black y, and who fell and who twisted this or that, and who had to get a skiddoo because they got stuck !. What do they expect. It is these very people who pose the biggest danger on the mountain- Inexperienced skiers who think they can ski and are actually out of control for at least half the time. The snow plough, and how to stop is just about the most important thing to learn, and possibly the hardest in the beginning to grasp. If the newcomers to the sport stayed a little longer learning the basics I do not think there would be so many accidents and injuries. That is my opinion I am sure lots will disagree, but I do see it from where I live.
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I dont buy the "Helmet = Speed" equation for me it was the other way round, my skiing had increased to the state where my speeds where regularly exceeding 30mph and touching on 50 so for me "Speed = Helmet"
I wear a helmet on my mountain bike at far lower speeds and think nothing of it. Now on my 4th year of helmeted skiing and wouldnt consider helmetless anymore. helmet is comfortable and warm
I have noticed the pistes getting more and more crowded though and a massive decrease in the standard of skiers ability and control for the conditions. Also mixing of different groups, blades, ski's, board's mean that the groups are all trying to use 3 different lines at the same time and there seems to be a big difference in awareness of the 3 groups and how they travel and their limitations
The worst are groups of "youfs" who are out to show how great they are by how fast they go to each othere, wheras of course everyone else is just appaled at thier totally out of control speeds. This apies to boards, blades and ski's
Maybe we need to consider mandatory certification for different levels of piste and all to include a recap of the Skiers code.
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I do think that the hard pistes we had in January (from a longish period of cold weather and little new snow) lead to faster skiing. The skiing is easier, so people ski faster. Conversely, in more difficult conditions, fresh snow or bad visibility, speeds are often lower. This weather-dependent aspect was probably always so but now carving skis and techniques have raised speeds generally, so perhaps the higher speeds that the equipment and sometimes easier pistes allow lead to serious accidents more often.
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| achilles wrote: |
You hare a pillar of virtue. But judging by the touching faith I have seen by a lot of sHs in helmets for preventing high-speed injury, I think there is a risk that many helmet-wearers ski faster than they would were they not wearing one. As I do not have faith in my helmet doing much if anything for me at high speed, that doesn't apply to me, of course. |
Or anybody else, presumably, since in all the various helmet threads, I cannot rememeber a single post where anybody suggests thath they believe helmets can prevent high speed injury. Not one.
Quite a few people (including me) have suggested that in any situation where there is a less than fatal head injury, a helmet may reduce the severity of the injury. But nobody has gone any further than that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Oh goody-goody, another helmet thread.
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You know it makes sense.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
You hare a pillar of virtue. But judging by the touching faith I have seen by a lot of sHs in helmets for preventing high-speed injury, I think there is a risk that many helmet-wearers ski faster than they would were they not wearing one. As I do not have faith in my helmet doing much if anything for me at high speed, that doesn't apply to me, of course. |
Or anybody else, presumably, since in all the various helmet threads, I cannot rememeber a single post where anybody suggests thath they believe helmets can prevent high speed injury. Not one.
Quite a few people (including me) have suggested that in any situation where there is a less than fatal head injury, a helmet may reduce the severity of the injury. But nobody has gone any further than that. |
I was thinking that too. I find it quite patronising, particularly this part: "I think there is a RISK that MANY helmet-wearers ski faster than they would if not wearing one". Who are these many skiers at risk then? Not much evidence of them on this forum and never met any in real life. I'm sure there are a FEW, but I doubt they exist in large enough numbers to be a major threat on the slopes. I think there are some skiers (usually beginners) who might feel a little more confident wearing a helmet, but I don't think that makes them ski faster or more dangerously.
Anyway back to the headline: The Observer: "Very cold conditions ... much faster pistes" causing ski deaths
Complete sensationalist B*llsh*t as far as I'm concerned. Typical journo headline, linking a few random events together to make a cheap filler story.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think the increase in snowboarding is causing the increase in head injuries but would like to see some data. The momentum of a board and body is much greater than that of a ski and leg as a function of the increased weight. Boards can also go faster. Therefor potential momentum is increased on both counts and thus the risk of serious head injuries is greatly increased.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| thighshocks wrote: |
| Boards can also go faster. |
Faster than skis? How does that work?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the hypothesis of increased numbers of snowboarders resulting in increased head injuries is more to do with the fact that both feet are strapped to the same plank meself. On skis you tend to fall to the side when you fall rather than backwards or forwards whereas on a board the falls tend to be face/body slam or back of head slam and that's if the arms don't go down first.
I hit my head more times learning to board than the whole time I'd ever spent on skis including learning to ski and I think it's because both my feet can't release from the board so it makes it hard not to hit your head even if you try to get your backside down first.
Also if boarding related head injuries are included in the overall stats, then that could be to do with the number of boarding tricks that are occurring outside of snow parks and within them actually. I've seen a boarder land on his head when jumping off a ledge or something to the side of a piste on more than a couple of occasions and wondered how he managed to get up afterwards and board off 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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STOP THE BRUTAL GROOMING.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
Anyway back to the headline: The Observer: "Very cold conditions ... much faster pistes" causing ski deaths
Complete sensationalist B*llsh*t as far as I'm concerned. Typical journo headline, linking a few random events together to make a cheap filler story. |
Absolutely. I was always under the impression that once the temperatures are below zero C, colder = slower anyhow. It's only when it is warm enough to be slushy that warmer is slower.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Was in La Plagne last week, and on our last day, just this friday, we saw the aftermath of an accident that required three helicopters. Three! Didn't see what happened, but it was a sunny day at the end of the week and it's my guess that the tiredness of the end of the week combined with the sunny day drawing people onto the slopes combined with the slushy snow to lay the foundations for the accident. The slope itself (levasets i think) was a reasonable easy blue that had been made a bit tricky by mounds building up.
I tend to ski in a pretty slow'n'steady manor - for one thing, my legs just aren't fit enough to ski fast. On difficult pistes I ski a really consistent line and speed, pretty metronomic and my girlfriend is the same, yet in the space of a week I think we were crashed into four times between us, each time by someone coming down the hill from behind us (i.e. we could not see them coming!).
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achilles, you're missing the point.
"I'm now going a lot faster, so I'll take measures to minimise the damage that may occur when things go wrong...which includes wearing a helmet"
is very different from
"Ooh, I'm wearing a helmet and am now indestructile....so I'll go as fast as I can"
madmole, and I, are saying the former, you are asserting the latter. We will ski at the speed we do irrespective of what we are wearing - doing less is not skiing to our abilities and so would result in a less enjoyable experience.
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David Goldsmith, it sounds like rubbish to me. I would say that your observation is closer to the mark than the Observer's.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd like to offset my grooming emmisions and use them to free ride from a chopper - without a helmet. Think the grooming encourages people to dose off. At low temperatures there will be more blood concentrated in the essential organs so there will be more likely hood of a bleeding brain.
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Maybe the rise in accident rate, if that is borne by the statistics, is partly attributable to modern lift systems. When I was learning to ski there were fewer detachable chairs and fast lifts in general, and the queues were much longer when you made it to the bottom. Nowadays, modern lift systems are much more efficient at getting skiers to the top. I believe you can ski much further than ever before as a result of this. Although skier numbers and general crowding may not have increased much over the years, if you want to bomb all over the resort then you can do, without thinking you're going to savour that run because you know there will be a queue at the bottom and a long ride back up.
Just a thought.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm in jasper right now. When I arrived they had not snow for weeks & it was certainly cold at -30C plus wind chill! THe pistes were hard and fast but never subject from freeze-thaw. I have never seen so many people stretchered off & all the abulances busy ferrying people to hospital. I could hear there was a long delay waiting for an ambulance to get back from Hinton. This in perspective where there are only a few hundred people on the hill midweek. Talking on a chair lift to piste patroller, he was pretty complacent about it say they are very cautious & ship people off tp hospital if there is the slightest suspicion of injury. I'm not sure - I guess they are not used to marginal conditions. Lucky for me, we had a good snowfall & the pistes were running slow & I didn't see anyone stretchered off for 2 days. It is unfortunate that they have groomed many of the runs to death. The unpisted stuff if a bit churned up but still soft and nice to ski.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I agree with Nads on this one. These days a lot of people don't seem to think they need to learn to ski, apparently you just get the gear and a couple of mates who've been before and head on up the hill.
When I learnt, all the way back in 2000, it was normal to have a week's lessons each year for at least the first few years; if nothing else I wanted to learn how to ski properly, not just lumber about looking like a sack of spanners, and it seems to be widely agreed that without lessons you weren't going to get very far. Now I know of people who aren't bothering with lessons at all, or maybe just having one or two, and just trying to keep up with their friends who've told them "it's easy, just follow us and copy what we're doing".
I'm not saying it's impossible to learn to ski/board without professional instruction but somehow people need to understand that having a pair of skis or a board on your feet whilst standing on a slippery slope makes you potentially a very dangerous object and take on board the fact that it is their responsibility not to be a danger to other people. But how you get that message across I do not know... 
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Nads, Swiss Toby, I had no idea that the trend, these days, was towards taking virtually no lessons at all. How very worrying.
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You know it makes sense.
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Swiss Toby, totally agree with you. It really annoys me that new comers dont realise the importance of proper instruction. I had to force our friends into lessons by refusing to ski with them. One day on a "learn to ski" course at the snowdome does not mean you can ski a whole mountain. I'm more than happy to help them out in the afternoon when they're practising but lessons are important.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Swiss Toby Hurtle Nadenoodlee
Just maybe to confirm my observations, one of our guests arrived last night, went to join a ski school today and there were no beginners groups !!! This is not late season when this can sometimes be expected. It is quite astonisihing really. So our guest was left with no alternative than to book private instruction. As the only beginner in the group of guests this has been very expensive for her. However expense is not the only problem. Private instruction is great, especially when you are already at a good standard and want to improve certain technique, but it is quite exhausting as it is very intensive, and when it is one on one there is no short rest breaks as you would get in a ski school group. Result is that a total beginner can be worn out after a 2 hour session. In the case of my guest she is right now at hospital with a torn knee ligament, having fallen just before the end of her lesson.
Private instruction is also a little solitary and takes the fun out of learning, having a laugh at others and yourself etc.
The trend is to reduce the instruction to the bare minimum, and there are not many guests who consider ski school on a second holiday, so no improving on style, technical ability , or ironing out of bad habits . , it is a worry as these are the dangerous out of control skiers who probably cause accidents, they are not used to finding a good line in the snow , this is what is learned by following the instructors. Certainly the fast skiers in our village are mostly German and Austrian who know how to ski well and are completely in control, and for what its worth most of them wear helmets !!!!! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't know why more folks don't take part in group lessons. I've always found them both instructional and great fun. I think the most I've ever paid for a whole week's worth is about £80 in total so cost isn't a huge issue in the whole scheme of things.
Another advantage is that as my wife and I have different levels of skiing ability, if we spent all holiday just skiing together, either one of us would get bored or the other placed in potentially dangerous situations. Skiing in a lesson with people of roughly your own level helps improve your skills and confidence without feeling as though your being pushed out of your depth. Once the lessons are over, we'll ski as a couple on easy blues and reds just practicing the drills we've done earlier in the day.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nads, that is a sad story about your guest 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nads, crikey! And poor lady!
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Private instruction is also a little solitary and takes the fun out of learning, having a laugh at others and yourself
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Absolutely agree and that is why I'm so pleased that I've found some good group lessons (smallish group - that is important, I think) which I aim to try and spend a week doing annually, from now on. Making up for lost time rather late in the day, I fear - but better late than never.
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Hi Just to let you know , my husband just came back from Hospital with our guest , ruptured cruciate and anterior ligament, she has 105€ of medication, anti thrombosis injections everyday and a full leg brace. I feel gutted for her , she arrived last night full of enthusiasm. I honestly dont know if this would have happened in a group, I think she was overtired, and the instructor had already purchased a full lift pass as they were off up the mountain ( after 1.5 hours ). Weather not good, visibility is rubbish snow is very soft due to rain in the village. I feel so bad for her she is in floods of tears as the last few weeks she has so been looking forward to this trip. I think I will offer her a freebie another time ! unfortunatley I am not a hard nosed business woman, will never make any money but our guests do appreciate us.
Anyway I still think lessons in groups are great fun and it is sad so many people think they dont need them. Although I am hugely appreciative of the independent travel of today, I think it used to be the reps who had the arrival meetings and lived on their commisions who managed to get so many into ski school. So maybe they did have some good uses.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nads, while indeed sad, I think it's somewhat unfair to blame the instructor without knowing anything else about what happened). Any decent instructor will fit the lesson to the needs (instructional and physical) of the client and the current conditions.
If I had never skied before, cash was no object and I wanted to make the fastest progress, I'd go with private lessons every time.
That said, and making myself a little comfier on the fence, group lessons can have many advantages - making friends, fun factor, etc. When I was a rep (nearly 20yrs ago) I saw no commissions for ski school yet still encouraged many people to take it up.
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under a new name
dont get me wrong I am not blaming the instructor, I know him well and he is one of the best ( and a joint owner of the school ) , I am just sorry that there were no group lessons starting this am, as I said I find this so much more now, but I know there was 1 guy who started yesterday and had 4 hours private, I think that the idea was to get our girl up to speed as fast as poss and up the mountain with him as they had her booked with him this pm at a cheaper than private price, and then again tommorow. Sadly she never got up the mountain, and I went and pleaded for a full refund on the lift pass. They knowcked of 11€ for an unused pass, but I have to question was she ready to be up there in 1.5 hours. I am no instructor but know what is normal here when there are groups of beginners, it is usually morning day 3 when they get up in a gondola. My guest has been tearfull over dinner tonight, and i just know what its like because I had the same injury 3 years ago at the beginning of a season , and felt likewise thwarted and upset.
No I dont blame the instructor I just think it is circumstances changing, that Ski schools dont have enough interest even in main season. I could go one step further and muse on the days when each Austrian village only had 1 official ski school , maybe that was better, who knows 
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| Quote: |
I hit my head more times learning to board than the whole time I'd ever spent on skis
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Me too. I think it gets less common once one gets a bit further up the learning curve (I'm still waiting).
Nads, what a sad story. Same thing - almost exactly - happened to a friend of mine. Couple had a private lesson together - he was almost a complete beginner (learn to ski in a day course, two hours on the nursery drag with me, on his first day - had gone well, he was doing nice slow controlled snowplough turns, but not ready for a big step upwards). She had done a bit more, and the instructor seems to have taken his cue from her, and he had a bad fall at the bottom of a blue run - mostly a completely gentle and suitable blue run, but with a steeper and churned up section at the bottom, which he couldn't cope with. I did blame the instructor for that, actually. Clive is a tough guy (ex Marine) and wouldn't have baulked at whatever the instructor told him to do, but it was too much for him and that was the end of his skiing for the week. We now call that slope Clive's Nemesis.
Your guest is lucky to have such a sympathetic host. 
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Nads,
I agree with everything you've said about lessons. More and more over the past few years I've observed skiers who are skiing either too fast for their technique (ie can't stop or turn quickly if the need arises) or on slopes that are too difficult, where they go dangerously fast because they haven't got the technique to control their speed on steeper slopes. Then they brag about having done this tricky red or this black and you just know they've either fallen dozens of times or narrowly escaped taking some poor innocent but competent skier out!
And another thing I noticed last year - not on the whole a good snow year for the Alps - was that because all the off-piste was skied out/rocky/grassy (this was in a resort famed for its off-piste) the so called experts had to stay on piste and were skiing far too fast among lesser beings, making a lot of the latter very nervous.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SkiGranny, I agree totally, also it does not have to be a learner who gets nervous, I am constantly aware of the out of contol skier , I have a business to run here and am afraid of serious injury because who will be here to look after all the work, and my guests. Saturday is the best day to ski as it is mainly changover day and quiet, but obviously I am working like crazy on a Sat. I know that when it is quiet and the pistes are left to the locals at the very end of season I ski so much better because most of the other skiers around me know what they are doing.
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FAQ
