 Poster: A snowHead
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Two British tourists fell to their deaths down a steep valley after leaving a bar late at night in Les Deux Alpes ski resort in the French Alps, police said on Friday. The pair, aged 28 and 29 years, went missing after a night out on Wednesday, but their bodies were not discovered until Friday. ...
Source: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090227/tuk-two-british-skiers-die-in-fall-in-fr-a7ad41d.html
The two men have now been named by the Foreign Office: Richard Ryan and Christopher Lockwood, who are both from the Leeds area. It appears they had tried to take a short cut going back to their chalet from a bar and they fell off a cliff.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7916360.stm
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Venosc cliffs kill punters every year. Alcohol is often involved.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Blimey, that doesn't sound like a very clever way to die. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, the mountain rescue choppers have been very active the past few days from the helipad near our apartment, I guess this was one incident, the other might have been the recovery of that other poor guy that they mention. Apart from this week I've never seen it being used! That cliff gives a great view but is lethal!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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RIP fellow loiners
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stanton, is that Dutch for "how sad that 4 parents just lost a child"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Frosty the Snowman, I've thought very long about an appropriate reply to stanton but I think you've summed it up very well.
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stanton, It must be wonderful to be such a perfect model of morality
The fact they had been drinking does not make it any less sad. One moment of clouded judgement and 2 young guys out enjoying life then its tragically taken from them. I can only hope that they enjoyed their holiday prior to this very sad accident.
It is a sad reminder of how precious life is (to most of us stanton, excepted) this could be any of us on our holiday doing what we love whether it be on the slopes or apres.
RIP my thoughts are with your loved ones left behind.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| RPF wrote: |
stanton, It must be wonderful to be such a perfect model of morality |
Alternatively, it might be pretty cool to have no qualms about being a complete ****.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
The fact they had been drinking does not make it any less sad.
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To be fair to stanton - and his usual anti-Brit stance aside - he didn't actually say that it did make it less sad, any more than I did earlier in the thread.
IMV, if their state of inebriation contributed materially to this accident - which seems possible, though it's obviously not yet proven - that would make it more sad, not less - what a terrible waste of two young lives. A bit like kids playing on railway lines, an activity which frequently results in fatalities: yes, terribly sad, children cut off in their prime, bereaved families and so on - but stupid and unnecessary nonetheless and so, surely, is walking off a cliff because you're pissed.
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More sad anyone take pleasure in the sadness of others.
Wonder if he felt the same way had the victim is Dutch?
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You know it makes sense.
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Frosty the Snowman, it might be sad, but that doesn't change the fact that you would have to be completely off your face to fall off that cliff on your way home from Smithy's. It's not exactly on the way to anywhere.
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this could be any of us
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No it couldn't. We don't all spend our holidays getting so drunk that we have no idea where we are.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard, you've stated on these pages that you are a journalist or former journalist.
In the various press accounts of this accident there are various facts, or claimed facts. I can find nothing from an official source - or any other source - that states how much alcohol was in either man's bloodstream, or a witness that they were drunk. There are conflicting accounts of how long it took for the emergency services to be alerted. For example, the Guardian ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/28/ski-france-alps-ravine-death
... states that they were called on the same morning that the men disappeared.
| Quote: |
| A Deux Alpes police spokesman told a local news agency: "Their friends alerted us that they were missing in the early hours of Thursday after they left the bar but never made it back to the chalet. |
The Telegraph ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/4885412/Holidaymakers-die-in-ski-resort-cliff-plunge.html
... says that the rescue did not commence until 30 hours after the accident.
| Quote: |
| The bodies were located within an hour of the alarm being raised on Friday morning. |
It's possible (more than likely, I'd have thought) that one man tried to save his falling friend and lost his life in the process. If that's the case, he would be a hero, but it would not be easy to deduce which of the two men was the (attempted) saviour. It's possible that neither of the men was drunk, or that one was drunk and the other wasn't. Or that both men were drunk, as you might be infering.
It's not difficult to adopt anonymity on the internet and hurl criticism around. It's also easy for any relative or friend of these two men to access this thread via Google in the quest for some truth about why these men died.
How about contributing to that process, since you're near the location and (presumably) know something about journalism, instead of flaming individuals who can hardly answer back?
All bets are off, as I see it. One assumes that there will be an inquest and that the French authorities will present a definitive account. Perhaps both men were stone cold sober, decided to have a wander ... one of them tripped, and the other leapt to save him.
Basically, if we don't know, let's not leap to conclusions.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 1-03-09 10:33; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Colin B wrote: |
| Two British tourists fell to their deaths down a steep valley after leaving a bar late at night in Les Deux Alpes ski resort in the French Alps, police said on Friday. The pair, aged 28 and 29 years, went missing after a night out on Wednesday, but their bodies were not discovered until Friday. ... |
As far as I can gather they went missing on Thursday morning - they may not have entered the bar until Thursday.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| ... you would have to be completely off your face to fall off that cliff on your way home from Smithy's. |
The press variously report that seven people - seven people - have died when falling down that ravine in recent years. How many of them were drunk?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
| ... you would have to be completely off your face to fall off that cliff on your way home from Smithy's. |
The press variously report that seven people - seven people - have died when falling down that ravine in recent years. How many of them were drunk? |
All of them, including the two recent victims.
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davidof, where are your facts? Victims' names, inquests, blood/alcohol tests?
It's reported that one man who fell down there grabbed a tree and survived. Was he drunk?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith, as you yourself say, it's pointless and possibly hurtful to speculate further on the cause of this incident, so why are you doing it? Objectively and irrespective of the facts of this case, the proposition is simply as follows: drunk enough to seek a cliff to fall off=stupid=sad; not drunk, but victim of entirely unavoidable accident=sad but not stupid.
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Hurtle, anyone investigating this accident would speculate, because that's one way of arriving at the truth. Leaping to conclusions isn't.
You've speculated with two 'simple propositions', but the first point is that the two men's deaths have to be dealt with separately. They almost certainly have directly related causes, but they may be different causes.
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Look David, stop beating this to death. The two victims were drinking during the evening and were visibly under the influence when they left the bar according to eyewitness statements given to the Gendarmerie. Whether this is why they fell off the cliff is another matter and no-one can say.
It is a tragic accident for two young men who came to enjoy the mountains and to go skiing. Drinking isn't a crime and it is normal to let your hair down a bit on holiday.
Now I'm of skiing, I suggest you do the same and let these poor men RIP.
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David Goldsmith, yes, because I don't think it's wrong to speculate, I was just wondering why you, in the light of your previous comments, were probing speculatively into the factual details of which we are all ignorant. I certainly haven't jumped to any conclusions. Nor do I think it's even remotely appropriate, at this point, to discuss whether or not one of the men was a hero. I shall leave you to your doomed attempts to "arrive at the truth" in the knowledge that it would be a mistake for me to go anywhere near a cliff if I'd had too much to drink.
I'm sorry that these people met their deaths and I'm also sorry for their families. We should perhaps leave it at that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith,
The Times Online...
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Yesterday police said the two men from Yorkshire had been “visibly under the influence of alcohol” when they left a bar in Les Deux Alpes resort, east of Grenoble, at 2am on Thursday.
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Does that answer your question?
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davidof, I asked you a perfectly reasonable question, because you asserted that all the people who've fallen down that ravine have been drunk.
Now you're thrashing about. You've broadened the accusation to all seven previous victims, which is 'journalism lite'.
Come on, let's have the facts about the alcohol in the blood of these two men, and the previous victims.
My impression is that you've got to be careless or unlucky to fall down there, but not necessarily drunk.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Schuss in Boots wrote: |
| Does that answer your question? |
No way. An inquest report would be a lot more informative, particularly if it looks at the context of the previous fatalities.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| ...... the factual details of which we are all ignorant. ..... |
Are we? I cannot understand how any sober person would not be well aware of the need to take care around the slope of that ravine, especially when there were warning signs. We are told that the two bloke concerned were "visibly under the influence of alcohol" in the small hours. I think it not unreasonable to draw conclusions.
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Just a selection of possibilities:
1. They were pushed (or one was pushed and the other tried to save him)
2. They were wandering around, one tripped (and the other tried to save him)
3. Both fell simultaneously
2. One was drunk, the other wasn't
3. Neither were drunk
4. Both were drunk
If they were drunk:
5. The levels of alcohol in their blood were entirely their own responsibilities
6. The alcohol supplier has some responsibility
7. The alcohol supplier has no responsibility
8. Somebody enticed them into a drinking contest or laced/strengthened their drinks
The ravine:
9 . claims lives of those sober or drunk
10. will only claim your life if you're drunk, because if you're not drunk you'll get the warning signs
One thing's for sure (speaking from personal experience): I've been drunk in a ski resort at night and had an accident. Luckily for me it involved a brick wall and I wasn't in a village where you could fall to your death like that. But I'd basically lost control and it could easily have happened to me in the same location and in the same circumstances.
Let's not moralise or be judgemental about lives lost. Alcohol is particularly potent at altitude, where dehydration can often be a factor (and I agree that alcohol was probably a factor, but hope that there's an inquest).
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You know it makes sense.
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David Goldsmith, let. it. go. you yourself have said it's pointless to speculate about the causes of their death. you're doing exactly that in your post above.
it is sad for the families involved in all the deaths that occur on the slopes (and elsewhere for that matter). would you be so keen to defend (because that is how it appears to some of us) people who die in the uk under similar circumstances? would you be prepared to trawl through all the facts of the matter in the same way?
these families are going through the grieving process at the moment. if they happen to chance on this thread, your posts may actually be the ones which come across as a tad heartless. now leave them to it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Seems to me that DG is getting it in the neck for trying to inject a little balance following assumptions by others and an insensitive post by Stanton. Any excuse eh?
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Poster: A snowHead
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halfhand, That's the way I saw it too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
It's possible that neither of the men was drunk
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Absolutely. They were probably playing Scrabble and drinking tea in Smithy's in the small hours of the morning.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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..
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 2-03-09 8:04; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ah, such profundity, such a beautiful turn of phrase. One can but marvel.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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David Goldsmith, "TUI wouldn't tell us their names because the families haven't been informed, but we've found them out and here they are anyway." Nice.
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It is very sad when anyone loses their life before natural causes take their course. However I feel a lot of the accusations and speculation that abound in this thread can only be the net result of the "general" (said with caution) bad behaviour of the British when on holiday abroad, the over use of alcohol being one of the main problems.
As a nation the Brits "generally" do not seem to understand that intoxication, altitude and dangerous sports are not a good mix. This is not surprising when you consider how many people have a good drink and then drive on our roads back home. When will the general population wake up to the dangers if excessive Alcoholic intake.
OK rant over - as was said earlier in the thread we should not jump to conclusions before an inquest has been held, but I can understand why some would.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, now you're making a relative judgement against a website revealing the two victims' names (their names were released by the Foreign Office at some time yesterday, but I don't know whether this preceded the 2Alpes report (also filed yesterday) or not) ...
... against your own statement that anyone tumbling down that slope "would have to be completely off your face" or "getting so drunk that we have no idea where we are".
I've put it to you that one of these men was quite possibly trying to save his friend and therefore quite possibly did not lose his life due to drunkeness. It seems unlikely that they were connected when they started falling, so this seems a viable theory. There has been no post-mortem result to indicate the alcohol in their blood.
According to the various reports, seven people have died falling down that slope in the past 12 years (it's not clear whether that figure includes these two fatalities). What have you found out about the causes of those deaths that makes you say that you would have to be drunk to fall down there?
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Looking at the back and forth between one (former) journalist and another, no wonder we have such a low opinion of journalists at large.
Facts get in the way of a story. So lets replace them with speculations. 
On the other hand, the internet is the best place to speculate. So sit back and enjoy wilder speculations that are sure to come...
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FAQ
