 Poster: A snowHead
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carled, if you skiied in Italy your 12 year old would be legally required to wear a helmet.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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carled, no need to look too far - there are already such reports. The thing that helmets do not alter is death rate - at least partly because death is rare already. But the tone of your post really suggests you are not going to change your mind in the near future whatever 
Helmets also just look way better than sad wooly/fleecy hats, and are way better in cold/snowy weather, and lead to less goggle fogging.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, can you give us references for the reports? I guess the Swedish study you mentioned is one of them. (I dare say you already have in one of the multiple helmet threads, but I fancy it will be difficult to search for).
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I had a simple & slow (but stupid) fall on Saturday just gone - talking to a friend up the slope, dropped off one mogul from standing sraight into another, on my shorter skis so they just stopped dead, pivoted round and out of my bindings and smacked the side of my head into the slope. It hurt and my ears were ringing despite my helmet, but I thought even then thank God I had that on. Over a coffee half an hour later a look at the helmet revealed a dent in the structure and crazing under the laquer layer. IMO a simple spill would have been a nasty injury without the helmet. I always wear a helmet to ride a motorbike or race a car, so I always wear a helmet to ski. If you have got a 10 bob head then wear a 10 bob helmet - personally I reckon the helmets sat next to me in the rack in my office total well over a grand - and worth every penny.
Risk compensation can be an issue as we wear more body armour/head protection/spinal protection, but deciding what your going to ski or how fast you are going to ride a corner is down to you to decide as a grown up individual. If you go too fast or end up on a slope too hairy then blame yourself (or maybe your pushy ski buddy) but not your helmet/back protector.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman, frankly I have done it so many times that I just cannot be bothered any more. The info is there for those who look.
These threads start about every 2 weeks and it is usually pretty easy to judge the "readiness to contemplate change" of those posting - with an honourable exception for Achilles - who wears one much of the time - but with a healthy degree of scepticism.
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stoatsbrother, thanks.
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The problem is that there's no real way to test whether a helmet would have made a difference in any given accident- you can't really ask the victim to repeat their fall with/without a helmet this time around. The closest test you can get (I presume) is where two skiers collide, one wearing a helmet, the other without. The most recent example of that I can think of is the German politician (still alive I think- albeit in a coma) and the Slovakian lady (who died on the way to hospital) in Austria. The former was wearing a helmet, the latter wasn't it. Now I have no idea of the details of the accident, etc and therefore no idea whether the wearing/lack of a helmet made a difference. Given that both suffered severe head injuried though, it would seem the difference may have been a helmet....
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| Quote: |
laundryman,
But it's bigger, it's heavier and a has a bigger moment of inertia (about any axis). So it's a bigger target and it's harder to get out of the way. |
Giro G10 adds 400g to an average 5KG head - someone must be able to work out something scientific with that information. Of course you'de have to offset that against the weight of an average hat. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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allanm, thanks.
Let's assume a head is a sphere of uniform density (obviously it's not) of 10cm radius and a helmet an infinitely thin shell of 11cm radius.
The moment of inertia of a sphere is 2/5 x m x r**2 or 200 kg.cm**2 in this case.
The moment of inertia of a spherical shell is 2/3 x m x r**2 or ~32 kg.cm**2 in this case.
In other words, with these gross assumptions, the head is about 15% more difficult to move with a helmet on. Given that the head is denser around the edge than in the middle, perhaps that should be reduced to 10% or so. Combine that with the greater size (which the mind/body is not used to accounting for), and I would say that the risk of hitting the head is significantly greater.
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pam w, I've had the unfortunate task of having to escort a concussed friend off the mountain to the ER too - that was my wake-up call and it's the reason I wear a lid today.
midgetbiker, I had the exact same experience about 5 years ago, slipped from standing on a scoured mogul field in Davos, sizable dent in the lid and saw a few stars but would hate to think what'd have happened if i wasn't wearing it.
In my book, safty is your own responsibility, in your skiing/riding, the terrain you're navigating and what you wear to protect yourself. It is a matter of personal choice, but I'll always recommend one to anyone who'll listen. If it helps, think of it this way - you wouldn't go away without holiday insurance, and a helmet is just another bit of insurance cover against having your day (or holiday or worse) ruined.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 18-02-09 11:16; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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A mate of mine said "if you are thinking of buying a helmet, that is the time to get one", I took his advice and a few weeks later I took a big tumble in which my head hit the piste first, when I was on the ground I was quite convinced I would have to be taken off the mountain, fortunately I gathered myself together and carried on for the rest of the day. I am quite convinced that my helmet saved me from something much worse.
Here are some thoughts;
my Julbo helmet is light, unobtrusive and comfortable,
I don't ski any more dangerously with or without the helmet, there are plenty of other bits to hurt apart from my head,
I am most concerned about being hit by other out of control skiers, I think the helmet would help in some such accidents,
I am less likely to leave my helmet, goggle and glove combo in a restaurant or bar than one of these items individually (I had a problem in the past of either leaving my goggles or woolly hat in restaurants),
I bought my helmet after noticing a lot of skiers in ADH were using them, therefore I would not look a prat if I wore one, however in the 3V this year far fewer people wear them, I don't know if this has much to do with the 3V mentality.
I think a lot of reasons for not wearing a helmet on this thread are excuses rather than reasons.
Concluding ... if you want to wear a helmet, don't let the perceived image talk you out of it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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These threads dramatically increase the frequency of me hitting my head!
Maybe modern helmets should include some "cats whiskers" type technology.
As we all know a cat can measure if it can go though a gap by testing the gap with their whiskers.
Evolution as designed to the whiskers to grow to the approximate length that corresponds to the body shape.
Basically if they can fit the whiskers in the gap then they can get their body thorough.
In application, Some sorta heads up display in special goggles that notifys the skier/boarder that the oncoming gap requires evasive maneuvers.
Some simple message could be flashed in the skiers vision on the best course of action ... say ..."DUCK!"
Tux
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| Quote: |
Also it demonstrates to me that your guest caused the problem by his/her actions (hanging on to the button lift too long) which is one of those darwinism things - harsh but true - learn and evolve or maybe skiing's not for you.
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Sorry Carled, but whether or not the person caused the problem by his/her actions is completely irrelevant. Helmets (or seat belts) aren't only about protecting you from other people's mistakes. It was the second time he had ever been on a drag lift, it was a nursery slope drag lift and the first time he had let go too soon and slid back. So it was a perfectly understandable thing to happen and "evolution" was happening quite quickly. I do agree that some people are carless/accident prone, but so what? If anything, that should make them a more certain candidate for a helmet. And if anyone who fell off a drag lift should give up skiing how many of us would be here?
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You know it makes sense.
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kristof, Get Well Soon... even Mrs Me has bought a helmet now.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Tommy4681 wrote: |
| The problem is that there's no real way to test whether a helmet would have made a difference in any given accident |
No absolutely scientific way - but try hitting your head hard with a hammer, first with a helmet and then without. Do you feel the impact being spread out and absorbed in the first one? Are you now in hospital from the second?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I read things like this and just roll my eyes  I can't believe I'm actually getting drawn into posting on this thread but I have to say something...
Will you lot please get a life.....
If you want to wear a helmet then wear one, if you don't don't (until they are a legal requirement)
If anyone is trying to blame an accident on wearing a helmet (or being somewhere they wouldn't have normally been had they not been wearing a helmet) then they are just trying to find excuses (human nature) for thier inadequacies. I don't believe for one minute that putting a helmet on would instantly make anyone think they could ski a more difficult line or handle off piste terrain that would otherwise be beyond them, and if this is what wearing a helmet does do to you then you need counselling!
The fact of the matter is that research keeps being quoted to show that helmets offer little or no assistance in an accident.... Hang on.... how do we know this? there are probably hundreds of head clashes with trees, rocks, people etc... that don't come to anyones attention because there have been no injuries, we don't know what the state of play would have been with no helmets.
The only way to know for sure is in a situation such as motorcycle helmets where everyone wears them, then the data can be compared to a period when few wore them... that would give conclusive proof.
There is a point or severity of impact that would prove fatal with or without a helmet but come on..... anyone on here claiming that helmets offer little or no protection are talking absolute and utter bollox.... they are saying this so that they can justify in thier tiny minds the not wearing of one (which is just bloody selfish, just think of the families, the husban's, wives, children, rescue services, hospital services, holiday reps etc.. etc... who will suffer to varying degrees if you have a serious accident and aren't taking all reasonable preventative measures)
To finish my little rant consider this....
If I take a house brick and bring it down on your head as hard as I can I will more than likely kill you, if you were wearing a decent helmet it would hurt like hell and may even cause a concussion, but it would be unlikely kill you and may not even fracture your skull so how in the hell can any of you stand up and say they offer little or no benefit..... All I can say is SELFISH FOOLS!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm sure it has been at least 15 days since the last helmet thread....??
I started quoting but have given up now.... some incredibly stupid statements and idiotic ideas and over scientific'nesses....
If you are going to headbutt a rock would it hurt more and do more damage with a helmet on or off?
There is no debate.... if you don't like them, don't wear them....it is your head afterall!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Anyone who thinks the arguments are all on one side is a simpleton. I can see how pretending the world is black and white may help them cope.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| sps89 wrote: |
Maybe you would drive better without a seatbelt as well.
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Stupid comment. |
Not a stupid comment at all. Almost certainly the best way to reduce accidents on a road would be to put a big spike in the middle of the steering wheel, rather than an airbag.
You might not be safer in the event of an accident, but you would definitely drive more carefully.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Dear agony aunt,
A week ago I was engaging in interesting activities with a previously unknown female who had a relatively high risk factor. I was wearing a prophylactic and I therefore felt that nothing could happen to me. However, the prophylactic burst at an inappropriate time and this has led to rather unpleasant clinical results.
I am certain that I would not have been exploring that particular terrain had it not been for the sense of safety that the prophylactic gave me. I am therefore considering not using such prophylactics in the future. I am certain that this will lead to me sticking to well-known, low-risk terrain.
Concerned Reader"
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laundryman, if that is supposed to 'dig' at me then no worries 
I guess I am a simpleton!
If you can not handle the extra weight on your neck by wearing a helmet then don't wear one (but be careful when picking up your spoon to eat your soup; the extra weight of the fork may cause you problems when trying to co-ordinate the hand to mouth movement and make a terrible mess!)
Personal preference.... it is up to you what to do....
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Anyone who thinks the arguments are all on one side is a simpleton. I can see how pretending the world is black and white may help them cope. |
IMV the only reasonable argument I've ever heard for not wearing a helmet is the lack of overall risk of serious head injury for the average skier. I managed to ski for 20 odd years without a helmet and only banged my head a couple of times, with no consequences other than a lump and that strange metallic taste you get in your mouth. But the technical arguments against wearing one are IMV all weak and pathetic. I wear one now mainly for warmth and comfort, but the added protection against minor bumps and perhaps not so minor cuts is nice too.
Make up your own mind whether or not to wear one, but please spare us the 'dangers' of wearing a helmet. The level of protection they provide may well be questionable, but anyone who thinks a modern ski helmet may be more dangerous than wearing a bobble hat really has lost the plot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Vipa wrote: |
| Will you lot please get a life.....! |
Thanks but I already have one.
| Quote: |
| There is a point or severity of impact that would prove fatal with or without a helmet but come on..... anyone on here claiming that helmets offer little or no protection are talking absolute and utter bollox.... they are saying this so that they can justify in thier tiny minds the not wearing of one (which is just bloody selfish, just think of the families, the husban's, wives, children, rescue services, hospital services, holiday reps etc.. etc... who will suffer to varying degrees if you have a serious accident and aren't taking all reasonable preventative measures) |
| Quote: |
| All I can say is SELFISH FOOLS |
I'm awfully glad it's not anything like yours appears to be! 
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I'm just waiting for the helmet that weighs a few grams, is <5mm thick, is 100% breathable, will flat-pack to go into my suitcase, and costs nothing to buy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| James the Last wrote: |
Not a stupid comment at all. Almost certainly the best way to reduce accidents on a road would be to put a big spike in the middle of the steering wheel, rather than an airbag.
You might not be safer in the event of an accident, but you would definitely drive more carefully. |
sorry - that is tosh
If you looked at the steering wheel of a 1950s US car you would see that they effectively tried that one already - with catasrophic results.
And what about protection from others hitting you... and causing you to hit the spike...
This is one of these silly things that some journalists trot out every few years without engaging their brain.
Now if you didn't have soundproofing and side windows insulating you from the sensation of speed that might be a different matter. I drive way slower in my low ragtop with the top down than my ordinary car.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Vipa wrote: |
| .... Hang on.... how do we know this? there are probably hundreds of head clashes with trees, rocks, people etc... that don't come to anyones attention because there have been no injuries, we don't know what the state of play would have been with no helmets. |
The best evidence I have read was the incidence of head injuries in Scotland - which did not change with the increasing use of helmets. That said, the doctor who published the information has removed it from the web.
| Quote: |
| If I take a house brick and bring it down on your head as hard as I can I will more than likely kill you, if you were wearing a decent helmet it would hurt like hell and may even cause a concussion, but it would be unlikely kill you and may not even fracture your skull so how in the hell can any of you stand up and say they offer little or no benefit..... |
Hmm. I have a spare helmet. If I can set up a suitable 'head' (perhaps a water melon?) and can find the time (in short supply) I will give it a go.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB, I presume you are not intending to draw attention to the bad grammar, but to the video. I very much doubt the assertion that a life was saved. Had the impact been that severe, I believe the cyclist - even wearing a helmet - would have been concussed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am going to throw another bone for the argumentative dogs to snarl and snap over, by adding that one reason I wear my helmet so much is because it's by far the most satisfactory way of listening to my music.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| DB, I presume you are not intending to draw attention to the bad grammar, but to the video. |
Shocking - That was probably written by a guy who didn't wear a helmet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm rather miffed that you're all using exactly the same arguments as the last ten times this was debated, rather than exploring the appropriateness of my alternative example
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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horizon,
Please do keep to the main subject of the discussion (argument).
We are arguing about helmets not what you put on your helmet. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Vipa wrote: |
| .... Hang on.... how do we know this? there are probably hundreds of head clashes with trees, rocks, people etc... that don't come to anyones attention because there have been no injuries, we don't know what the state of play would have been with no helmets. |
The best evidence I have read was the incidence of head injuries in Scotland - which did not change with the increasing use of helmets. That said, the doctor who published the information has removed it from the web.
| Quote: |
| If I take a house brick and bring it down on your head as hard as I can I will more than likely kill you, if you were wearing a decent helmet it would hurt like hell and may even cause a concussion, but it would be unlikely kill you and may not even fracture your skull so how in the hell can any of you stand up and say they offer little or no benefit..... |
Hmm. I have a spare helmet. If I can set up a suitable 'head' (perhaps a water melon?) and can find the time (in short supply) I will give it a go. |
Scotland probably not the best place to gather ski accident stats, after all some seasons you can only ski a few weeks, then it gets crowded and very bad weather. As for helmets, I've decided to invest in one when I go to france in March, been skiing for 20 years without any bad injuries, but now I have family and am extremely folicly challenged, I will opt for one on safety grounds and keeping my head warm, are they really that uncomfortable? Never tried one on.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| xelon wrote: |
| .........are they really that uncomfortable? ....... |
Nope.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Vipa wrote: |
| .... Hang on.... how do we know this? there are probably hundreds of head clashes with trees, rocks, people etc... that don't come to anyones attention because there have been no injuries, we don't know what the state of play would have been with no helmets. |
The best evidence I have read was the incidence of head injuries in Scotland - which did not change with the increasing use of helmets. That said, the doctor who published the information has removed it from the web.
| Quote: |
| If I take a house brick and bring it down on your head as hard as I can I will more than likely kill you, if you were wearing a decent helmet it would hurt like hell and may even cause a concussion, but it would be unlikely kill you and may not even fracture your skull so how in the hell can any of you stand up and say they offer little or no benefit..... |
Hmm. I have a spare helmet. If I can set up a suitable 'head' (perhaps a water melon?) and can find the time (in short supply) I will give it a go. |
Would be interesting
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| achilles wrote: |
| Hmm. I have a spare helmet. If I can set up a suitable 'head' (perhaps a water melon?) and can find the time (in short supply) I will give it a go. |
Coconut might be a better analogue for a head?
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FAQ
