 Poster: A snowHead
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| richmond wrote: |
| bar shaker wrote: |
I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having. |
Says who? If you have a kid below the age of 4 or 5, or possibly older, it will either not be sking at all or not for a lot of the time. You (a) leave it at home with a trusted carer, (b) take it with you and take a trusted carer with you; (c) take it with you and stick it in a reputable creche for some of the time; (d) don't go skiing. For many, (a) and (b) are not practical options; what on earth is wrong with (c)? Sure, you take advice on the quality of creches, you check when you get there and each time you visit to take or pick up the kid and, if you're not happy, you take the kid out. It may come as a surprise to some people, but many kids enjoy spending time with other kids in a well run creche.
This is not the first post recently containing self righteous drivel about the undesirability of putting kids in creches on skiing holiday. Where on earth does the idea come from? Don't you send your kids to nursery school? |
Well said richmond 
We took our kids when they were young and they loved the creche and activities they were in - believe it or not parents can tell when their kids are happy or not. I agree that it would be selfish to do leave them 8-6, but I've yet to meet any parent on a ski trip who didn't take them out themselves most days between the.
Strange as it may sound - parents occassionally want to get away from their kids for an hour or two, however much we love them. Everyone having a bit of space makes a more relaxing holiday IMV
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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HH, I think you've been hard done to, but unfortunately I don't think it would be worth your time to pursue litigation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skisuit, I think the inference, on a moral basis, is that you should not go on holiday with young children unless you or a trusted person will look after them, and if you can not guarantee this then you should not take the holiday. Not my view necessarily but it seems to be the inference nevertheless.
edit - for clarity i am confused with all this agree, not agree, agree 'quoting'
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 21-01-09 11:39; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I would say it was about 1 and a half to two miles. I think it would easily be out of their range to class as "close" and that is why they chose to stop people booking childcare if they were satying in that hotel.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Skisuit wrote: |
| jonty wrote: |
| bar shaker wrote: |
I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having.
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What a ridiculous generalisation. |
Sorry but I agree.
My daughter was 1 and half when we first took her on a ski holiday and there was no way I was putting her in childcare as its her holiday as well. We did go with family and they offered to look after her occassionly but I only did this for few hours in the week (my choice) again because they are on hoilday as well. I gave up skiing until she was old enough for ski school or me and my husband took it in turns, took look after her so the other could ski. Putting a child into ski school is different to childcare. They cant ski at home but can play with toys and other children anytime without paying money to do it. I now have a 6 months old son and will be doing the same thing, giving up skiing until he is old enough for ski school.
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Skisuit - that was your personal decision and that`s absolutely fine. But to impose your personal views on childcare on others would be wrong. We all make our own decisions based on a host of different factors. IF it is being suggested that no-one should put their child in a creche/with a nanny then I`m afraid I think that`s ridiculous and prescriptive. My apologies is that`s not what you`re suggesting.
I wouldn`t dream of criticising an individual who decides not to put their child in a creche. Equally, I would take exception to someone telling me,or implying, that I am a poor parent and/or somehow immoral because I chose to use a creche.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
My daughter was 1 and half when we first took her on a ski holiday and there was no way I was putting her in childcare as its her holiday as well. We did go with family and they offered to look after her occassionly but I only did this for few hours in the week (my choice) again because they are on hoilday as well. I gave up skiing until she was old enough for ski school or me and my husband took it in turns, took look after her so the other could ski. Putting a child into ski school is different to childcare. They cant ski at home but can play with toys and other children anytime without paying money to do it. I now have a 6 months old son and will be doing the same thing, giving up skiing until he is old enough for ski school.
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We also did not put my youngest daughter in creche the first time we went with her, and took turns between skiing and childcare. However all children are different, my daughter is happy in creche for a morning playing with others, painting and playing with different toys to the ones she has at home. As stated somewhere else in this thread, parents know when their child is happy or not and of course if she was not happy going I wouldn't put her in that situation. It just amazes me that people sometimes make martyrs of themselves needlessly.
My eldest daughter, 7, does ski at home, every week in fact. When Izzie is old enough I'm sure she will want to too. Sorry but dont agree with your argument that ski school is different to creche...you are still leaving them in the care of strangers.
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Thanks to all of you giving your support in both threads of this thread!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
stoatsbrother wrote:
HH, if I were you - I would post a thread about them on a well known ski forum and get my revenge that way...
by the way - this bit of the forum does not get searched by google - you might want to ask for this to be moved to "the Piste" ...
Didn't know any of it was searched by Google, thanks for the tip!
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Now how did that happen?
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| Skisuit wrote: |
| jonty wrote: |
| bar shaker wrote: |
I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having.
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What a ridiculous generalisation. |
Sorry but I agree.
My daughter was 1 and half when we first took her on a ski holiday and there was no way I was putting her in childcare as its her holiday as well. |
What's that supposed to mean? I'm not convinced that a 1.5 year old has the concept of 'holiday' pinned down. Anyway, why does that preclude her from going into childcare? She might have preferred it for all you know.
| Quote: |
| We did go with family and they offered to look after her occassionly but I only did this for few hours in the week (my choice) again because they are on hoilday as well. |
You're lucky to have that possibility; lots of people don't.
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| I gave up skiing until she was old enough for ski school or me and my husband took it in turns, took look after her so the other could ski. |
Good for you, but that doesn't make using childcare wrong.
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| Putting a child into ski school is different to childcare. They cant ski at home but can play with toys and other children anytime without paying money to do it. I now have a 6 months old son and will be doing the same thing, giving up skiing until he is old enough for ski school. |
Nice bit of justification for doing what you wanted to do, get rid of the kid and get skiing again.
The comment 'What a ridiculous generalisation.' is correct. It obviously suited you not to use commercial childcare; to generalise from that to say that no-one should is ridiculous.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jonty wrote: |
In theory you do have a remedy (although nothing is certain in law).
A misrepresentation was made to induce you to enter the contract. The fact that it was oral (i.e. verbal) has no significance except from an evidential standpoint. I have little doubt that a judge would accept your version of events.
The misrepresentation sounds in negligence and/or became incorporated as a term in the contract.
There are 2 types of contractual term: 1) conditions 2) warranties.
Breach of the former entitles the wronged party to (amongst other things) rescind the contract i.e. set it aside. Breach of a warranty merely entitles the wronged party to damages i.e. monetary compensation.
Without going into the tedious details , suffice to say the term in your contract would be regarded as a warranty.
Breach would entitle you to damages.
Similarly, any remedy for negligent misrepresentation would lie in damages.
However, the amount of damages would be modest. I would have thought a couple of hundred pounds at most.
In order to obtain that, you would have to engage in lengthy correspondence, waste enormous amounts of time and q possibly go to Court. You would ideally require legal assistance. It`s unlikely (given the sums involved) that such costs would be recoverable.
It`s a matter for you but I wouldn`t have thought it was worth it.
Re First Choice`s standard terms - I found (in the distant days when, to my shame, I acted for travel companies) that most district judges were sympathetic to claimants and not slow to find a way around standard terms & conditions.
Nevertheless, there is always a substantial element of risk. |
Highly unlikely misrep would work. 1. The statement must have materially induced the contract- I'm not sure a judge would deem the proximity of a creche sufficiently material to a ski holiday contract. 2. A statement of opinion which is unfounded cannot be a misrep- i.e. it was the agent's opinion that the creche was close- just because your opinions of 'close' differ that is not a grounds to bring a misrep claim (unless the agent had no idea and outright lied to you).
Anyway enough of the scintillating law chat.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Should children wear helmets while in creche?
Should nannies and creche employees follow a recognised offpiste training module?
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| Tommy4681 wrote: |
| jonty wrote: |
In theory you do have a remedy (although nothing is certain in law).
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Highly unlikely misrep would work. 1. The statement must have materially induced the contract- I'm not sure a judge would deem the proximity of a creche sufficiently material to a ski holiday contract. 2. A statement of opinion which is unfounded cannot be a misrep- i.e. it was the agent's opinion that the creche was close- just because your opinions of 'close' differ that is not a grounds to bring a misrep claim (unless the agent had no idea and outright lied to you).
Anyway enough of the scintillating law chat. |
Interesting point but I`m not sure I agree. Firstly, the representation (as I understand it) was one of fact: i.e. there was a creche in close proximity to the hotel. Whilst there can be differences in opinion as to what constitutes `close`, I doubt many judge`s would consider a round trip of an hour as close. I certainly wouldn`t. Secondly, there clearly was reliance upon the representation (whether framed in contract or tort). Sufficient materiality is primarily relevant in determing whether the (mis)representation became a condition (i.e. fundamental) of the contract; or, merely a warranty (not fundamental). I suppose you could argue that as a family - booking a family holiday - it was a condition but I suspect the argument wouldn`t get very far.
Sadly, whichever route you take, the answer is the same. Even were HH to succeed, her remedy would be modest.
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You know it makes sense.
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| richmond wrote: |
| bar shaker wrote: |
I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having. |
Says who? If you have a kid below the age of 4 or 5, or possibly older, it will either not be sking at all or not for a lot of the time. You (a) leave it at home with a trusted carer, (b) take it with you and take a trusted carer with you; (c) take it with you and stick it in a reputable creche for some of the time; (d) don't go skiing. For many, (a) and (b) are not practical options; what on earth is wrong with (c)? Sure, you take advice on the quality of creches, you check when you get there and each time you visit to take or pick up the kid and, if you're not happy, you take the kid out. It may come as a surprise to some people, but many kids enjoy spending time with other kids in a well run creche.
This is not the first post recently containing self righteous drivel about the undesirability of putting kids in creches on skiing holiday. Where on earth does the idea come from? Don't you send your kids to nursery school? |
That sort of comment, IME, usually comes from people who don't have any children of their own.
It certainly is not a rational comment that would be liklely to be made by anybody with any real life experience of the subject.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bar shaker wrote: |
I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having.
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Thanks for telling me what kids are for.
I, and my kids, hold a different view but maybe we'll end up behind you on a flight or a transfer coach one day and you'll get a chance to expand on your argument.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'd be very surprised if any parents left their kids with "whoever" - why do you think all the holiday companies are keen to shout about the (British) qualifications that their nursery staff have.
Out of interest, will those who don't use childcare be attempting to teach their kids to ski themselves, or will you trust that to the hands of the professionals? My personal view is that children who have been to nursery (home/holiday whatever) are better and more adapted to being left and coping with unfamiliar situations.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry you've had such a disappointing experience with First Choice HH and I sympathise with your situation. It wasn't a cheap holiday that you booked so you're quite right to expect it all to be hassle free. I think that it's shocking that they didn't highlight the childcare issue sooner and by the time you noticed it, it was too late to try and rectify satisfactorily. When you go on a group holiday it's not unreasonable to expect the group to stay together and not be split up.
Before little geetee arrived I used to go on a group holiday every year to somewhere in Europe - usually France or Italy. The person that booked the holidays booked us with First Choice on a few occasions. The last two of these holidays were pretty bad and our friend booked with another company after that. The first of those holidays was to Risoul. One of the problems was that the food was appalling and most of the group (there were 20+ of us) were ill at some point during the week. The staff were completely apathetic and had a couldn't care less attitude. Then the other holiday was to Serre Chevalier where the reps demanded our passports in return for the ski passes we'd ordered. They were electronic ones and they wanted to hold our passports for ransom in case we lost the pass and didn't cough up for a new one. We told them to get lost but did leave a money deposit instead. I wondered if the reps had possibly ordered season passes and were on the make as a season pass would be much cheaper than 14 weeks of 6 week passes. However, the real bug bear was that they had misrepresented the room layouts and said that bedrooms would share a connected bathroom. This wasn't the case. Most of the bedrooms slept 4 people with 2 on a mezzanine level. It didn't go down well at all with our group of nearly 30.
I would need a lot of persuading before going with First Choice again. I wouldn't rule out TO's entirely though as we had a great time when we went to Whistler with Ski Independence. However, in my mind First Choice = Last Choice. We book practically all our holidays independently these days. Then if something goes wrong it's generally our own fault for not researching properly.
As for not taking children on holiday? Well there's no way we would/could leave DD at home. We used the Nanny Network in Whistler in the early days and we were confident that she was happy and well cared on the days we skied. Now she goes to ski school and has a great time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Why do snowheads threads always deviate away from the original subject? The OP and the concept of where you leave your children on a skiing holiday should really be two threads. I find (and I'm not starting a new point here) that this is one of the downsides of this forum that threads splinter into too many "conversations".
OP - I sympathise that you were inconvenienced but were given the option to cancel or use a different hotel so I'd say "let it go" and learn from this one.
Kids in the Creche - I didn't ski for a couple of years when my children were young. I wish I hadn't missed those seasons from a ski point of view but from a parent point of view I didn't want to dump the babies as I believe (and still do) that we holiday together. For some parents, they are less worried about leaving the children in some kind of care, but for us this has never been what we wanted to do. My experience of those parents who "dumped their children for the slopes" has not exactly been a positive one. But I wouldn't condem anyone for doing it, on a non skiing level I just can't see why you would and I suppose I feel that being a parent is something that may at times require sacrifice such as not skiing as much/often as you used to before you had children. I don't think it's about what you do with your children but more about the underlying spirit of how you do it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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HH, For the future - can I suggest the US or Canada?
Ski Hill based Child care - in our experience - has been of high standard - perhaps because of customer expectations and a service culture. It also helps that you can drop the sprogs off on the way to ski, and pick them up on the way back. Our youngest would hide when we came to collect him from Lake Louise daycare as he liked it so much - and when he was 3 started on two one-hour lessons a day whilst there. He had a great time and still talks fondly about his "snow school" before he started skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, taking babies and young children on long haul flights, now that could start another "conversation" altogether ...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Tis the nature of forums
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It's not really. In most forums discussions are kept on topic which helps makes sense of long posts. More active moderation would mean that topics could be kept relevant. But it certainly is the nature of SH.
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. . . .you had your children with you 24 hours a day I assume . . .
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Yes! No grandparents or childcare - so we did have the responsibility of looking after them every hour of every day in the first three of years.
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We skied less when our kids were young, as we didn't want to dump them all day
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I think this is the point that some parents don't feel that they would compromise their skiing for their childcare obligations.
As you say, each to their own.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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Tis the nature of forums
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It's not really. In most forums discussions are kept on topic which helps makes sense of long posts. More active moderation would mean that topics could be kept relevant. But it certainly is the nature of SH.
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It is the nature of ALL forums unless they are very heavily moderated.
As you say, more active moderation could keep threads on topic. But that would destroy most non-technical forums, because they rely on people being willing to treat threads as conversations.
And it would also be impractical for any forum run by volunteers (as Snowheads is). You can only moderate that actively with full time paid moderators.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I sympathise with the OP. If you have children, you don't want to put skiing on hold whilst they're young, you want to be able to take them with you and be secure in the knowledge that they are being well looked after whilst you're enjoying yourself. Same as with any holiday really...
Those of us without children will probably never really understand, but different people have different priorities and a TO has to try and cater for as many as possible...
I totally understand the grievance here but I can't see how the TO could have done any more. They offered a full refund and it was due to circumstances beyond their control that the OP was not able to book a suitable alternative holiday. It also sounds as if the reps offered some help in resort too. It's an unfortunate situation due to the error of one person, the one who took the original booking and gave false information...
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| Quote: |
It is the nature of ALL forums unless they are very heavily moderated.
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It's certainly not the nature of all forums in fact SH is the only forum I visit (and yes, I do visit quite a few) which does not remain on topic. (And I am aware that with this very post I am contributing to that effect). It's not only about moderators it's also about forum behaviour and its users understanding the ways forums work effectively and the nature of posting/cross posting.
My point is, a forum is more useful if the discussion topics remain relevant to the original post. There are ways of addressing this without full time pad moderators but it does require a willingness to do so.
That said, the fact that SH is active makes often makes up for this shortcoming.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It also sounds as if the reps offered some help in resort too
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What? By writing a telephone number on a slip of paper for me? That was all the help I got!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Kids in the Creche - I didn't ski for a couple of years when my children were young. I wish I hadn't missed those seasons from a ski point of view but from a parent point of view I didn't want to dump the babies as I believe (and still do) that we holiday together.
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Please enlighten me...are you a man who works full time? If so I can appreciate that you would cherish every second of your holiday being with your children. As virtually a full time Mum who gave up her career to look after her gorgeous children, I feel somewhat differently to you. I cherish the two and a half hours skiing I get to do for 12 mornings of a year, my girls are happy in ski school/creche and benefit greatly from a fullfilled mother who can find balance in her life. As I said previously, we all have "family time" in the afternoon sledging, making snowmen, swimming etc. It's a win win situation and I suspect you begrudge your missed years of skiing when so many others managed to find a happy medium.
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"A happy parent is a good parent" (as I once said)
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm a bloke who works full time, and when my kids were pre skiing age, I found that on skiing hols, spending time with them for few hours after skiing each day, plus a couple of full days and an afternoon or two, was plenty, thanks. I enjoyed that - it was a good deal more than I saw of them during a normal fortnight - but it was enough. Since when has it been the object of one's life to spend as much as possible of one's time, up to 100%, with one's kids? Too much vicarious living going on here for my liking.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| HH wrote: |
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Kids in the Creche - I didn't ski for a couple of years when my children were young. I wish I hadn't missed those seasons from a ski point of view but from a parent point of view I didn't want to dump the babies as I believe (and still do) that we holiday together.
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Please enlighten me...are you a man who works full time? If so I can appreciate that you would cherish every second of your holiday being with your children. As virtually a full time Mum who gave up her career to look after her gorgeous children, I feel somewhat differently to you. I cherish the two and a half hours skiing I get to do for 12 mornings of a year, my girls are happy in ski school/creche and benefit greatly from a fullfilled mother who can find balance in her life. As I said previously, we all have "family time" in the afternoon sledging, making snowmen, swimming etc. It's a win win situation and I suspect you begrudge your missed years of skiing when so many others managed to find a happy medium. |
Well said.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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It is the nature of ALL forums unless they are very heavily moderated.
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It's certainly not the nature of all forums in fact SH is the only forum I visit (and yes, I do visit quite a few) which does not remain on topic. (And I am aware that with this very post I am contributing to that effect). It's not only about moderators it's also about forum behaviour and its users understanding the ways forums work effectively and the nature of posting/cross posting.
My point is, a forum is more useful if the discussion topics remain relevant to the original post. There are ways of addressing this without full time pad moderators but it does require a willingness to do so.
That said, the fact that SH is active makes often makes up for this shortcoming. |
Johnnyh - you seem to have started a third topic of conversation running 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Please enlighten me...are you a man who works full time?
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yep . . . and my wife gave up her career to look after the children and we both just didn't want to leave them in a creche. I don't see why that's a problem, it leaves more spaces for those of you that want to.
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you begrudge your missed years of skiing when so many others managed to find a happy medium.
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I don't begrudge anything and I would do it the same if we had the chance to. The happy medium for you may not qualify as the quite so happy for others. In my experience the "me time" at the expense of the children comes from "me" parents and not the "we" families. You of course are entitled to feel differently about what you do . . .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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HH, I get away skiing every year (well for the past 3 seasons)without the kids. I am a great Dad and and my solo ski trip doesn't change that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Whoever thinks you have kids to spend all your time with them seems a bit barmy to me. That cannot be healthy for the kids or the parents. Needy parents have needy kids.
They **** you up, your mom and dad.....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Plus I hate being screwed over by anyone. You booked a specific holiday because you thought you had covered all the bases.
Unfortunately, someone elses cock up affected your holiday. Very, very frustrating!
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Blindside, ah! One of my favourite poems
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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It is the nature of ALL forums unless they are very heavily moderated.
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It's certainly not the nature of all forums in fact SH is the only forum I visit (and yes, I do visit quite a few) which does not remain on topic. (And I am aware that with this very post I am contributing to that effect). It's not only about moderators it's also about forum behaviour and its users understanding the ways forums work effectively and the nature of posting/cross posting.
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Are most of the other forums you visit "technical" ones? i.e. dedicated to specific fairly limited areas, with general discussion discouraged?
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My point is, a forum is more useful if the discussion topics remain relevant to the original post. There are ways of addressing this without full time pad moderators but it does require a willingness to do so.
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Define "useful". SH is intended (AFAIK) mainly as a discussion forum, although certain of the boards do have more specific purposes.
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That said, the fact that SH is active makes often makes up for this shortcoming. |
I suspect that a lot of the members don't regard it as a shortcoming, and it would probably be a lot less active if people did not treat it so informally.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, mine too. And the fact that they were f***ed up in their turn is no bl**dy excuse!
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HH, I get away skiing every year (well for the past 3 seasons)without the kids. I am a great Dad and and my solo ski trip doesn't change that.
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No, it probably makes you a better Dad for it because you are fulfilled and the kids will really appreciate you when you are home. If God had intended children to be stuck to their parents sides for 24 hours a day 7 days a week 52 weeks a year then he would have made the umbillical cord far stronger I suspect!
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FAQ
Ok I mock - for many people in reality some form of childcare is essential, be it grandparents or nursery, so that they can return to work. We'll try to avoid getting sidetracked on whether people should return to work or not 
