 Poster: A snowHead
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Skiing in St Anton last year when an avalanche came down and covered part of a return to resort blue run called Happy Valley. I've never seen so may people / dogs searching, probing, etc. very swift response by the emergency services , and this on a "safe" run. Fortunately no-one found buried. Never underestimate the power of nature.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Liam wrote: |
| I think the question you could ask is " Has anyone ever been caught in an avalanche on piste?" |
I was caught in an avalanche on the Jean Beranger piste in Val Thorens on the 21st of November 1992. The avalanche killed three of my friends and four other people. I have never got over it and still suffer depression in the weeks leading up to the 21st of November every year.
We thought that as we were on the piste we did not need to take any precautions. Since then I have always worn a transceiver and carried a shovel and a probe when skiing, regardless of location.
I would highly reccomend that everyone that skis takes a morning to learn how to use the kit. Most resorts will have a guide bureau that will teach you how to use a transceiver, most courses are only half a day long. The kit and the course cost far less than the rest of your ski kit or the price of your holiday and the value is incalculable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philingle wrote: |
| Liam wrote: |
| I think the question you could ask is " Has anyone ever been caught in an avalanche on piste?" |
I was caught in an avalanche on the Jean Beranger piste in Val Thorens on the 21st of November 1992. The avalanche killed three of my friends and four other people. |
I was going to quote that infamous event in my original reply, but they happen so rarely that I didn't think it was worthwhile highlighting it. Sobering to think that a member of this forum was caught up in it. Even at this distance from the event my condolences on your loss.
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Not "on piste" as we know it in Europe, but there was an in-bounds avalanche death at Snowbird in the USA yesterday - and they generally try to control anything "in bounds" the same way pistes are protected here. The report does also point out just how rare these are.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5079104
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| There was a pretty serious avalanche on piste at val thorens in 1992 burying 10 people and killing 7 of them. |
I was out skiing that day in VT and it still makes me feel sick when I think about it...  There is no way that the resort should have been open. I had a coach load of fellow students from Chambery and the wait for people to arrive back was terrible. They all did...not so lucky for the bus from Lyon.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, Not questioning your knowledge but i read that report from Salt Lake City and wondered what in bound meant.
Thinking about it i considered the term out of bounds would mean off piste. So in bound would mean on piste.
I have never skied that side of the pond so am only guessing. Also the way the report seems to really emphasise that the poor lady Heather Gross RIP was in bound also makes me question it because from other reports of off piste casualties they dont seem so sympathetic.
Makes you realise against nature we are just passengers regardless of how good we are (or think we are).
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ianbradders, They have a different way of describing the situation you ski in over the pond.
Each ski resort has a defined area which is patrolled and (theoretically) avalanche protected. That is the area known as "in bounds", but it includes both groomed trails (on piste) and ungroomed areas (off piste to us). That area will normally have fences all around (at least where the edges are not defined by cliffs), and anything outside those fences is "out of bounds" - it will not be avalanche controlled, nor patrolled, and in some places in North America you just aren't permitted out there at all (although that is much rarer now than it was a few years ago).
But all this means that there are areas in most North American ski resorts which supposedly have similar protection levels to European on-piste, while looking more like European off-piste. Yesterday's death happened in such an area.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney, thanks for the reply, i know you are never 100% SAFE ON THE MOUNTAIN (especially the way i ski).
but i guess in europe when we are off piste we feel somewhat protected because the piste patrol will still be quite close, relatively speaking.
i guess it just reinforces the need to look after #1 and conversley enjoy every minute.
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ianbradders, It's the other way around actually whilst you are in the ski area. The ungroomed stuff in bowls, trees and steeps inside a ski-area-boundary which would often be called off-piste in Europe, is patrolled, controlled and opened and closed properly in North America. In addition - as someone who skis both each year, there always seem to be way more patrollers around in the US/Canada than Europe.
Backcountry - in the US/Europe is a different matter again.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Not much more than on the link you gave, I mentioned it on the first page of the Pistehors link above.
It is very dangerous at the moment, especially closer to the border with Italy but a pretty generalized risk on steeper slopes at all altitudes and areas.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Also remember a 3m slab avalanche up on the Bellcote glacier in Mar 99 that thankfully triggered naturally overnight but it was about 700 metres long and 200 metres wide by 3m deep..  Bit scary when I skied down the slope with guests the day before...it was just off to the edge of the piste down a nice 35 degree slope as you come down from the top of the Bellcote..cant remember piste name but was a huge slide... if that had been during the day it would have been catastrophic...
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Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother, I'm sure you know this but your post was ambiguous: There is no resort boundary in Europe and consequently no in bounds / out of bounds as there is in the USA.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As a simple comparison would the following work?
Europe = USA
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1. On piste = On piste (inbounds)
2. Off-piste itineraries (marked)= Off-piste (inbounds)
3. Off-piste (unmarked) = Backcountry
3 is not avalanche controlled or patrolled.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DB, 3 is a bit of a problem - in that quite significant off-piste in Europe can be between pistes (looking a the piste map, yet not an itinerary. I wouldn't call it back country myself - though it isn't avalanche controlled or patrolled.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Any clearer?
Europe = USA
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1. On piste = On piste (inbounds)
2. Off-piste itineraries (marked)= Off-piste (inbounds)
3. In resort off-piste (unmarked between pistes etc) = out of bounds
4. Remaining unmarked off-piste = backcountry
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles,
Hey come back here.
As I understand it (haven't skied over the pond yet) "Inbounds" in American means everything is avalanche controlled within a marked boundry including prepared / unprepared along with marked / unmarked runs. In Europe only the marked (prepared and unprepared) routes are avalanche controlled. So "out of bounds America" can mean "inbounds" in Europe - no that doesn't sound right oh $****&"§"!%%&??? (runs away too) bye 
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Its much more simply than that....In Europe the piste is on piste....everything else is off piste or back country !!! Just some are more off piste than others !! There is no boundary.
In the US it really does depend on the resort. But most have a boundary and everything inside of that is considered in bounds and therefore not back country or offpiste.
Jackson Hole has the clearest definition of this...
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Alex A,
..... but in Europe aren't the marked Off-piste itineraries avalanche controlled?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Alex A wrote: |
Its much more simply than that....In Europe the piste is on piste....everything else is off piste or back country !!! Just some are more off piste than others !! There is no boundary.
In the US it really does depend on the resort. But most have a boundary and everything inside of that is considered in bounds and therefore not back country or offpiste.
Jackson Hole has the clearest definition of this... |
Indeedy doody. Problem is when you try to agree what's what with the insurance companies.
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But yet there are places in Europe and I'm thinking specifically places I've seen in Tignes, VdI and 3V where there ropes and signs saying that you are leaving the ski area and you go out at your own risk. If this is not clearly out of bounds area what is. I'm sure that this has been mentioned above as well
Examples; Top of the Grand Pre for Tour de Charvet, top of Col De Palet for dropping into Champangy, top of Mont Vallon for dropping over the back
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Interesting to note that it looks like Dogtag dosen't (or is reluctant to) cover Delrium Dive type areas from that. Fair play to them for popping up here to discuss it though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yeah know what you all mean and I was thinking about the areas in Espace Killy when I wrote the message.
Put it this way...the examples used above and that I sadly witnissed with VT were very much innocent piste skiers taken out by avalanches in bounds that came from high above...
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This is basically the first time I've ever even thought about avalanches - being a 100%* on-piste type of a chap.
Am actually faintly scared of forthcoming Zermatt trip, what with it having more snow than I've ever seen before, and still falling...
*might occasionally cut between runs, or cut corners, or just go off the side of the marker poles. NOT interested in discussing this, so don't start.
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You know it makes sense.
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I was caught on a (very) small slab avalanche on piste many years ago. Strange feeling. Came to a stop at the side of the piste and the trees were moving uphill! By the time I'd worked out what was happening it had stopped.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| stevew wrote: |
| But yet there are places in Europe and I'm thinking specifically places I've seen in Tignes, VdI and 3V where there ropes and signs saying that you are leaving the ski area and you go out at your own risk. If this is not clearly out of bounds area what is. ........ |
 Leaving the ski 'area' at your own risk in Europe is one thing. Losing your lift pass in the States is another. OK, that's an old article. Here's something more recent.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| stevew wrote: |
| But yet there are places in Europe and I'm thinking specifically places I've seen in Tignes, VdI and 3V where there ropes and signs saying that you are leaving the ski area and you go out at your own risk. If this is not clearly out of bounds area what is. ........ |
Leaving the ski 'area' at your own risk in Europe is one thing. Losing your lift pass in the States is another. OK, that's an old article. Here's something more recent. |
The US system just makes more sense and is clear cut. The different geology is part of the reason for this.
Take Jackson Hole. Inside of the "ropes" / "Boundary" is a ski area that has both groomed and lots of wild un groomed slopes / cliffs / couloirs / tree skiing / EVERYTHING ! Skiing in this section you are 100% in a controlled / patrolled environment. I perosonally believe that you are extremely safe in this area.
Outside of the ropes there are specific gates where you can enter the back country. They have signs saying you must have shovel / peeps / probe etc... It has a sign clearly showing the avalanche risk too.
As soon as you step foot in this area its at your own risk. Totally black and white.
Now take Europe and Tignes for example. It would be impossible to create such a boundary as within the so called ski area you have massive mountains (eg Grande Balme). Going from the piste at the Grande Motte and belting it across the glacier, hiking up and then skiing down a glacial slope before hiking to the top of the Grand Balme and then dropping into the North Face couloir is very much of the same ilk as outside of the roped area in Jackson Hole. However there are no signs and you will see silly skiers doing these runs with no safety gear at all and no ability in many cases.
Half the problem in Europe is the scale is so much bigger. You cant create an area like you can in resorts in the US. The only resort that is similar to Europe is Whistler. All the others its very easy to seperate the two areas.
Alex
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A skier was caught by an avalanche inbound in Vail last Sunday:
http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20081215/NEWS/812159867/1058&title=Vail%20skier%20caught%20in%20in-bounds%20avalanche
| Quote: |
VAIL, Colo. — A skier was caught in an in-bounds avalanche in Vail Mountain’s Blue Sky Basin on Sunday.
The skier was buried to his waist but was unhurt, said Scott Toepfer of the Colorado Avalanche Information Center.
<snip>
Toepfer, a longtime former Vail ski patroller who has skied Vail since its first season in 1962, said he can only recall one other time when a skier was caught in an avalanche in-bounds on Vail Mountain. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowball, thanks - you are right of course - poor choice of language by me. There may be an implicit boundary formed by geography in Europe, but the situation is way fuzzier than in the US as Alex A points out, where there are large chunks of "off-piste" which is fully patrolled and avvy controlled.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| arv wrote: |
| Reached the piste at Lake Louise and Big White this year... I think someone was killed at Big White. Not sure though.. |
Yes, a young snowboarder was killed at Big White early last season by an on-piste slide in the cliff area. It is steep there and there had been a lot of snow, but the slide was totally unexpected.
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