 Poster: A snowHead
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| JT wrote: |
| And back to the original point that rob@rar made, if they are that nervous then maybe they shouldn't be there. |
Actually, that's not the point I made. I said that if a skier was so nervous that they required an unreasonable amount of space around them then maybe they should stay on the nursery slopes. I think the figure of 20m was mentioned.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"shouted at to get out of the way"
This was never mentioned Rob....no shouting unless it's deserved 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Robbof wrote: |
"shouted at to get out of the way"
This was never mentioned Rob....no shouting unless it's deserved |
You need to be loud enough to make yourself heard. What to you might be a clear voice warning someone of your intent to pass them might well be construed by a nervous skier as someone shouting at them to get out of the way.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney, it is very easy to pass a slow moving skier or boarder on a narrow path, and to do so safely. I do it all the time. |
And how, exactly, is that possible? |
You just ski past them. It's not difficult. |
In the siuation described, it is totally impossible.
Perhaps you don't have much experience of the type of tracks we are talking of here, and are thinking of something rather wider?
We are talking about the sort of width where you could maybe get 4-5 people across it if they were all standing shoulder to shoulder.
It would only take somebody who turns suddenly a second or less to cross this type of track.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, I wasn't at any point suggesting "shouting at" a skier, let alone shouthing that they get out of the way. However letting them know that you are there can be helpful. They still have right of way, you stuill have to avoid them, but they are aware of your presence therefore can choose to consider that as they decide where to ski.
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Since we're into repeating ourselves, I will say again that I don't 'shout at people to get out of the way.' The most likely circumstance in which I will give an indication on which side I am passing (and this is something I find myself doing extremely rarely in any event) is on a path which is wide enough for it to be safe to pass on either side. If I am the slower skier in that situation - and that happens too - I am grateful to know on which side I am being overtaken. Incidentally, before I overtake at all, I will slow right down and take a little time to assess the competence of the person in front of me: sometimes that person is so nervous and/or incompetent, that absolutely anything could happen, in which case I will stay back. Often, however, the person you are trying to pass is a perfectly competent skier or boarder who is just being selfish.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney, it is very easy to pass a slow moving skier or boarder on a narrow path, and to do so safely. I do it all the time. |
And how, exactly, is that possible? |
You just ski past them. It's not difficult. |
In the siuation described, it is totally impossible.
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In which case I'd slow down. What right do I have to expect slower skiers to get out of my way?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've never mentioned shouting either...
rob@rar, You could say that taking up 2mtrs of a path with a slow snowplough is a bit beyond them and an unresonable amount of space, but anyway....... I wouldn't mind so much..I accept they may have gotten the route wrong or have no choice etc. I wouldn't expect them to get all huffy about my skiing as long as it was considerate and polite.
In cases like these..it is better to get past and get out of the madhouse..
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rob@rar, qoute - 'What to you might be a clear voice warning someone of your intent to pass them might well be construed by a nervous skier as someone shouting at them to get out of the way'
i totally agree with you. I have been lucky to get a lot of boarding in over three seasons so I am quite competent now but still have a fresh memory of being an absolute beginner, and the worst case I found as a beginner boarder on a narrow flat track is for someone to click poles of give a warning before passing. The novice boarder is likley to take actions that will reduce the chance of falling in front of the skier or boarder trying to pass and basically the knowledge that some is immediately behind is likely to result in the novice immediately turning around to look and/or turning on to a heel or toe edge across the track because this is the safest/easiest way for a novice to control the board, to stop or to avoid falling by catching an edge.
When passing a novice boarder in such circumstances my suggestion is to try to read what they are doing, and pass as quick as possible and as far to the side as possible without startling them either by saying 'coming through' or clicking poles or anything else. simply 'leave them be' and pass as promptly as possible. I would even suggest that you slip past behind them rather than in front of them so that they do not know that you have even passed them until they can see you.
The only time clicking poles etc. is warranted is if the boarder is really struggling and almost stopped and in this case it is worth letting them know that you are trying to pass
No idea what helps a novice skier in the same situation though
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 16-05-08 10:38; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney, it is very easy to pass a slow moving skier or boarder on a narrow path, and to do so safely. I do it all the time. |
And how, exactly, is that possible? |
You just ski past them. It's not difficult. |
In the siuation described, it is totally impossible.
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In which case I'd slow down. What right do I have to expect slower skiers to get out of my way? |
Every right! I'm better tha everyone, I'm British so everybody should get out of my way or they are gonna get it!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| However letting them know that you are there can be helpful. |
It can also be counter-productive. Having shadowed a lot of lessons this season, mostly with inexperienced and occasionally nervous skiers, I'd say that it's more often counter-productive. Unless, of course, your intent when whispering/speaking/shouting a warning is to get them to change the speed they are skiing at or the line that they take?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 16-05-08 10:38; edited 1 time in total
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I can still remember my ( very recent) feelings as a beginner when folks 'clicked' or worse said or shouted something (in whatever language they thought pertinent) as they passed me. My first reaction was always that they knew they were about to do something 'dangerous' , then that they didnt realise how 'crap' I was , quickly followed by a lack of self-confidence and minor panic on my part. I probably had more 'incidents' due to those sequence of events than anything else.
I say nothing when I pass people but , as has already been stresssed, always try and behave as if I am the better skier and that is my responsibility to keep the other slope user out of trouble.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| I can still remember my ( very recent) feelings as a beginner when folks 'clicked' or worse said or shouted something (in whatever language they thought pertinent) as they passed me. My first reaction was always that they knew they were about to do something 'dangerous' , then that they didnt realise how 'crap' I was , quickly followed by a lack of self-confidence and minor panic on my part. I probably had more 'incidents' due to those sequence of events than anything else. |
In my experience of skiing with nervous and novice skiers this is entirely typical, and the reason why I don't think it should be done.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Agenterre, yes
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Poster: A snowHead
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The pole clicking is back.... Someone please explain and put me out of my misery!! Whats it all about???????
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Robbof, The 'uphill' skier taps their ski poles together, to emit a 'warning' to the person about to be overtaken.....not sure if it is 'one click - I am coming to your left' or 'two clicks - I am coming to your right' though. Surely the 'rules of skiing' should have a common interpretation? It is outrageous !! People could get killed....or worse 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ha ha!! Worse than killed!
How about shouted at AND killed!! 
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rayscoops, Cross-posted
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney, it is very easy to pass a slow moving skier or boarder on a narrow path, and to do so safely. I do it all the time. |
And how, exactly, is that possible? |
You just ski past them. It's not difficult. |
In the siuation described, it is totally impossible.
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In which case I'd slow down. What right do I have to expect slower skiers to get out of my way? |
None at all.
But then nobody has suggested they should.
Again, you are answering a point that has not been made.
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| Robbof wrote: |
| The pole clicking is back.... Someone please explain and put me out of my misery!! Whats it all about??????? |
It's about impatience.
Just the same as somebody flashing their lights at you from behind on the motorway.
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Robbof, no-one else knows what it's all about either. Following a similarly anal thread on here last year I carried out an informal poll of my friends and acquaintances on the subject and found that a) none of them had a clue what I was talking about and b) several of them thought I was losing the plot. 
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I can't believe that anyone who has skied much has never come across pole clicks..whether they think them a good idea or not... it is just more stuff that you come across. It is like side-slipping...nobody has to teach it..., you just get it...!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| Again, you are answering a point that has not been made. |
As I said, to my reading it is a corollary of a point that is being made. I assume that those people who helpfully give a verbal warning to the skier/boarder in front of them intend that person to actually do something with that information, even if it is only to keep to the same trajectory they currently have? If you don't expect the person in front to do something with that information what is the point in giving it? It follows, to my logic at least, that the person behind who is giving the warning expects the person in front to do something. So the point about rights and responsibilities is made, if not directly.
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rob@rar, Yes, you are asking them to do something.
But not to "get out of the way", rather to avoid moving into the way.
And 90%+ of the time, that is exactly what they would be doing anyhow. If they are all over the place, then you just have to live with it, for as long as necessary. You can only ask it of people who are obviously skiing in control, without making sudden moves, and all you are saying is to not change that at just this momenet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
Yes, you are asking them to do something.
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Which is exactly my point. What right do I have to expect another slope user to do something because I am trying to pass them? Whether it is moving out of the way or not moving into the way is irrelevant. If I can pass them safely without requiring action on their part I will, and if I can't I'll be patient for a few moments until I can pass them safely.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rayscoops,
ahh..now that is a code.... so boarders can't follow to a secret stash.
Does nobody listen to the language of the hill...?????
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You know it makes sense.
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this thread reminds me why I like off piste so much..........
btw I got some poles with powder baskets this season, I click 'em to knock the snow off 'em 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't know what the big deal is - if I'm out on a mountain bike on a bridleway and come across a bunch of walkers in front of me I'll quite often call out a "on your left" or "on your right" as appropriate. Now usually the wheezing will have alerted them to me beforehand but generally this goes down quite well rather tahn suddenly them hearing me at the last minute. I assume this is common practice.
I do this when skiing too on narrow tracks where I identify someone may not be totally competent in front of me on the basis that someone might prefer to know I'm there rather then suddenly have to deal with someone unexpected overtaking. Waiting until the track is wider is not necessarily an option on a track a few km long with heavy traffic e.g. the ski out form 7th Heaven on Blackcomb. Personal responsibility not taking things down to the lowest common denominator is the answer i think.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rayscoops,
| Quote: |
I have also noticed that the Alpha Male or Female (the one who always leads-off) in a group of skiers click their poles when heading off after a stop (at a ridge of a piste ) to announce that they have started moving again. Most strange
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I've skied with an SCGB rep who did that (not particularly Alpha Male, just an ordinary, nice sort of bloke) and I was for ever getting left behind until I discovered that's what the signal meant! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I don't know what the big deal is - if I'm out on a mountain bike on a bridleway and come across a bunch of walkers in front of me I'll quite often call out a "on your left" or "on your right" as appropriate. |
I'm assuming that none of these walkers suddenly keeled over in front of you because they were so frit, or irrationally started to hop sideways because they were worried about losing control of their feet? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob,
| Quote: |
I don't know what the big deal is - if I'm out on a mountain bike on a bridleway and come across a bunch of walkers in front of me I'll quite often call out a "on your left" or "on your right" as appropriate. Now usually the wheezing will have alerted them to me beforehand but generally this goes down quite well rather tahn suddenly them hearing me at the last minute. I assume this is common practice.
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Makes sense to me. It won't make sense to rob@rar, though, because the walkers are equally entitled to use up the whole of the bridleway and, since they are below you and going more slowly, it is incumbent upon you to follow them all the way down the hill if they don't deign to make way for you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, exactly.
I too had never encountered the pole clicking until last season in Selva. Even then I had no idea what it was about until the thread on here about it. I hadn't heard any this season though so thought it had died out, maybe I'm just moving faster
In a group of mates, especially being on a board, I don't mind someone yelling out "passing on the left" etc. on a flat track if there's not much space and you all want to keep any speed you've got up it's a nice warning. However, I wouldn't do it to a stranger, I'd rather just stay behind them till an obvious gap appears, it always will so just be patient.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
Yes, you are asking them to do something.
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Which is exactly my point. What right do I have to expect another slope user to do something because I am trying to pass them? |
You don't have any right. You are merely allowing them the opportunity to choose to act considerately towards you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| I don't know what the big deal is - if I'm out on a mountain bike on a bridleway and come across a bunch of walkers in front of me I'll quite often call out a "on your left" or "on your right" as appropriate. |
I'm assuming that none of these walkers suddenly keeled over in front of you because they were so frit, or irrationally started to hop sideways because they were worried about losing control of their feet? |
By your logic, fatbob should assume that they might do just that! As it happens, I did exactly that on a path in Richmond Park once, and in my confusion as to what was happening behind me, jumped into the path of a cyclist, instead of away from it! Almost very messy.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Makes sense to me. It won't make sense to rob@rar, though, |
Makes perfect sense to me because hill walkers won't panic at the sound of an approaching cyclist, and won't lose control making an accident more likely not less. I think you should spend some more time with nervous and novice skiers and then maybe you'll see my point
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| As it happens, I did exactly that on a path in Richmond Park once, and in my confusion as to what was happening behind me, jumped into the path of a cyclist, instead of away from it! Almost very messy. |
Well there you go! Illustrating my point, albeit in an unusual context.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, had the cyclist clearly signalled his intentions to me, it wouldn't have happened, and we'd both have been happy bunnies.
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| You don't have any right. You are merely allowing them the opportunity to choose to act considerately towards you. |
Which is absolutely fine if your warning doesn't actually make the problem worse. But In my experience it does if you ski up to a skier who is in the nervous and novice category, as others have said in this thread from recent personal experience. I simply can't see why there is a problem with waiting until you have the opportunity to pass a skier without needing to give a verbal warning 
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