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Getting Rid of Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Frosty the Snowman, Laughing Laughing
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veeeight wrote:
Wahey. 27 pages wink

Sharing a t-bar this week with a well known and highly regarded (on here) ISTD trainer, I related the crux of the past 26 pages to him, and he was absolutely incredulous....blah, blah blah


Whatever makes you feel good Wink
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uktrailmonster wrote:
veeeight wrote:
Wahey. 27 pages wink

Sharing a t-bar this week with a well known and highly regarded (on here) ISTD trainer, I related the crux of the past 26 pages to him, and he was absolutely incredulous....blah, blah blah


Whatever makes you feel good Wink


Or less stupid. rolling eyes
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Not to be cruel in keeping it alive, but... Little Angel

Here's an image of simple circles where the left ski-path is red and the right ski-path blue.

I personally guarantee that each circle drawn is of exactly the same radius.

All I did was duplicate an initial circle and move it a few mm to the right. I then duplicated that pair a couple times and moved them into positions above-right and below-right of the original. Each circle is of the same radius so there are converging and diverging "paths". (Note that if the 'skier' were to continue turning much further their ski paths would cross.)

Conceivably, if each ski is tipped exactly the same amount and held right next to the other (ignoring the biomechanical problems of doing that) would we get this pattern...?

Is this image the basis for your stated positions in this thread Veeeight?

.ma


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 11-12-08 1:02; edited 1 time in total
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Michael A, OMG - there was an Elephant here all along...... snowHead
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Hey now! I may be a bit *chunky* but it's not that bad (yet).

I'm just trying to understand exactly what Veeeight has in mind. The 'tracks' I drew might be very workable but there's no way to know unless Veeeight supplies any missing elements which may adjust things one way or another.

.ma
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Michael A, You hit the button . . . but please don't do it again . . . drawing circles on the snow is not the same as skiing linked carving turns.
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Michael A, Embarassed sorry, not you, rather the thread Very Happy

I've long had the suspicion that all the maths in the thread have been missing something. Maths and Physics aren't my strong point but I know what my feet & legs tell me and have a fair idea of how ski's work.
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Michael A, I think that would fit V8s "park and ride" model in the sense that both skis are doing exactly the same thing, except that he doesn't accept the resulting converging/diverging effect it would naturally create. Which your diagram depicts very nicely.

You can make the tracks parallel (if that's what floats your boat) only by a little fudging of each ski path radius with subtle steering. Discussed a million pages back in the thread by who I would regard to be experts eg. MB & Fastman
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One thing which seems clear to me (although I gave up doing maths as an auxiliary subject in the second year when we hit Green's Theorem and I realised my brain couldn't take it any more) is that the centre of circles drawn on paper is in the plane of the paper, whereas the centre of the "approximately circular figure of which the edged and bent ski is a part" must be somewhere above the plane of the snow.
How this relates to skiing I have no idea, I just go along and enjoy the ride Toofy Grin
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Yoda wrote:
One thing which seems clear to me (although I gave up doing maths as an auxiliary subject in the second year when we hit Green's Theorem


Thank you numbnuts . . I now have to go reboot my head Madeye-Smiley
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sorry this bump just had to be done now that the relatives have left and all the arguements have ceased at home Madeye-Smiley
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skimottaret, may your balls be wrapped in holly and pan-fried in rancid goose fat . . . then fed to the cat. Evil or Very Mad
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Masque, snowHead snowHead
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Masque, Laughing so to add more goose fat to the fire where is your thread on Body Mechanics NehNeh
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skimottaret, very much on the back burner at the mo. Besides, talking about force vector insertion points through the foot and how there is a huge difference in the torsional sheer applied between the uphill (outside) foot and the downhill (inside) foot and how that affects the overall stance in the carve and why it requires some to have a significant 'A' frame. That doesn't begin to address the subject of boot stiffness, flex and fit. I have to think about this carefully and consider illustrations.
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Perhaps if it's taken 28 pages to come up with the answer to this thread's question, maybe the definitive answer is to take up boarding Laughing


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 30-12-08 18:55; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[huge sigh of relief]

Laughing
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Sorry to bring this up again but there have been some quite enlightening points and diagrams by Bob Barnes on this subject over at another place:

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/79391/parallel-tracks/

(I have posted this link purely out of interest, for those who wish to explore the geometry with open, enquiring minds.
And remember, there is no "right" and "wrong" in skiing; the "best" skier is the one who gets to the bottom with the biggest smile.
Except in ski-racing, where it's the one with the fastest time - but that usually produces a big smile anyway!)
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Martin Bell, Holly and goose fat . . . you've been warned wink

I have worked out how and why this occurs and ultimately it's a fairly simple combination of bio-mechanics, ski shape, construction and a single vector of combined forces . . .

AND if you want to know the secret . . . I want MONEY wink

And yes I have worked out how different loadings can bend two skis into similar arcs to leave what are apparently 'parallel('sic) tracks and Geometry, whilst still important, is not the overriding control to what's happening Cool


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 7-05-09 23:19; edited 2 times in total
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Stuff the line drawings, Martin Bell, there's an imminent bash at Hemel you might have read about. What about a demo? Toofy Grin
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Martin Bell, the diagrams and conclusions seem to duplicate quite a lot of what we covered on this thread. Just to clarify sideshow_bob and Bob Barnes are different people Smile Interesting to see one of the more antagonistic posters on this thread is far better behaved and accepting on the Epic thread Smile
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Sideshow_Bob, yes, very interesting, and the animations from Bob Barnes make the point excellently. Several points:
1) No dangly bits about the geometry being just some two dimensional construct with no relevance to the real world;
2) Bob Barnes' assertion that skis diverge and converge quite naturally, and may be parallel only for brief periods in the path - and virtually no disagreement with this;
3) almost universal acceptance that parallel tracks are no particular goal (of enlightened teaching anyway), and is really of interest to only those trying to pass (possibly misguided) instructor tests;
4) "a certain person" is really keeping his head down, and what little he has contributed has been almost completely ignored - and one of the two responses was by someone who misunderstood the diagram being discussed (this is also something I've noticed other times I've had a peek over there)
Laughing
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Just the same arguments over there, just 25 pages less of the shoite Embarassed .
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GrahamN, I picked up on those points too from that interesting and thought provoking thread.

Also noted that there is reference to the effects of actively or passively steering the inside ski when discussing the apparent paradox of the inside ski tracking a tighter radius while have less vertical force to bend it. There was also an interesting analogy with car steering, which could be extended to include the effect of steering Ackerman (When applying steering lock, the inside wheel is steered to a greater angle than the outside wheel to compensate for the tighter radius of the path that the inside wheel will follow). Ackerman in the context of skiing would mean a passive or active steering of the inside ski to drive it round a tighter radius.
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Hi, just thought i'd pop my head in and shout .............BIG COCK
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hilarious, you should post the same on Epic as they are just as anal over there....
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Interesting thread over there.

One question remains in my mind: who was the skiing 'guru' who planted these thoughts in the young man's head in the first place?

One can only hope that the young man's brain has now been purged of this foolishness. I'd hate for the follies of a man's youth to become the stone prison of his old age - floppy cock that he is. Twisted Evil
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You know it makes sense.
Is this the bump thread?
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I'm looking forward to when rob@rar & skimottaret cover this in their Hemel coaching clinics - it's obviously an important topic wink
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cathy, do you think they'll take the circle diagrams with them?
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I would expect nothing less!
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wow 1111 replies, not a chance im reading it all... did we get an answer in the end, im a little interested
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dulcamara, I'm afraid there is no choice but to read it all. When you've done that, could you come back and summarise the main points please Very Happy

fr0sty, you'll be most pleased to hear we covered inner ski tip lead at the Hemel instruction on Sat evening. Regrettably no diagrams were used though Confused
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cathy, Not a chance, got to page 2 then started again on page 27, I think i will just assume that I am right..... tip lead is bad, don't do it!!!

exercises to discourage it, hit student with pole everytime they do it... you would be amazed how fast they will work it out (probably markedly faster than the hundreds of us)
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then draw 2 sketchy S's in the snow and explain confidently that this makes it obvious why you should do it!! finally draw two lines down the middle of the S in order to plant the idea that you diserve a tip for your confident drawing. BANG ski instructing 101
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Toofy Grin
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You're a very bad man Smile
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i might be bad but i don't have excessive inner tip lead anymore NehNeh
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Can you prove that with a pretty diagram?
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