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Getting Rid of Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret,

Here's some maths. One pair of skis with say a turn radius of 17m - a skier with a stance width of 30cm. Lets suppose the skier executes a lovely smooth arc (part of a circle say, with a radius of the afore said 17m) and keeps the skis parallel and inclined to the snow at about 30 degrees. One skis radius of circle would have to be 17.15m while the inner one would have to be 16.85m.

Now heres the maths: 16.85m as a % of 17.15m is 98.2%. Relationship between incline of ski and radius of circle is in fact linear, so 98.2% of 30 degrees is 29.5 degrees.

Conclusion in this fairly average exampe the inner ski would only actually have to be angled by 0.5 degrees more than the outer in order to stay nicely inside it. It's tiny - biomechanics and ski boots would be quite happy to allow it.

Everyone - please stop worrying about. Toofy Grin

Now how is it I can get 10 pints of beer into an 8 pint blood supply without my arteries busting ? Laughing
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
beeryletcher wrote:
Now heres the maths: 16.85m as a % of 17.15m is 98.2%. Relationship between incline of ski and radius of circle is in fact linear, so 98.2% of 30 degrees is 29.5 degrees.

Strictly, the tangent of the angle of inclination. The point is well made though. snowHead
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
beeryletcher wrote:
skimottaret,
Now how is it I can get 10 pints of beer into an 8 pint blood supply without my arteries busting ? Laughing

You haven't included your two pint bladder and speed of micturate fluid formation . . in all things there is balance wink
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Masque,

haha - right idea Mr Masque - wrong bladder - mine's a five pinter ! Smile
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
beeryletcher, PS, thanks for the maths, I've been using exaggerated examples to illustrate the bio-mechanisms involved in skiing and I'm certain that we can define and refine a definitive treatise of the whole process and all the factors involved.

I'm stunned by skimottaret's comment that bio-mechanics are not part of basic ski-instructor training . . . that might go some way to mitigate veeight's obdurate stance. How can an activity that is completely dependent on the physical and mental abilities of its participants to control their interface with, what to all intents and purposes is a very dangerous environment . . . not include basic physiology as a primary principle in the introduction to the teaching process???

There are lots of things I do wrong on skis . . I blame age, infirmity, and laziness . . . but I understand why I'm screwing up and I've obviously been blessed in what little instruction I've had as that they have both been able to see what I've been doing, comment on my lapses and let me get on with my own learning process.

I'm going to record some thoughts, post them in another thread (this one should be closed) and invite constructive comment to build an informed reference for people who want to understand how it all works . . . Life, the Universe, Everything . . . wink

Cheers, John snowHead
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Masque, A general Bio mechanics thread would be a great, i tried a while back with a few threads, but the anti BZK's brigade scared many off...

Body Mechanics
Pelvic Tilt
Stance width
Optimal Balance point

V8 (i think) is canadian trained and they definately do more mechanics stuff, BASI at L1 and L2 virtually nothing other than CoM and force vectors, planes of movement and warm up cool downs.

At ISIA level it starts to kick in but not in any great depth AFAICS....
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Masque - Austrians definitely do study biomechanics AIUI. They have a much better grasp on what bits of me do not work and how that pans out. So despite language issues I often skied with them at home. My understanding is this is what makes the staatliche stuff so full on - lots of depth of study not just skiing. I remember one staatliche unable to tell me the muscle names in english playing "point to muscles" to explain things to me.

Some French instructors also seem to have good biomechanics - Fred from ESF in Les Deux Alpes comes to mind.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
skimottaret, Interesting threads. The issue here may be the assumption that there are enough people interested enough to talk about it wink

It was only the gross and wilful ignorance of some of the comments here that dragged me out from under my horse blanket. Rather than a discussion it may be better to offer a finished diatribe to have its bones picked clean rather than an open forum. A sort of skiing primer . . .

'Bio-mechanics for Dummies' -or- 'Sh*gging teaches you more about skiing that sh*tting will'

It's a probability that, in this ever expanding midden of snowHeads, that many lurkers just want to find a small nugget or jewel of illumination that will connect the dots for them to achieve a simple goal. Presentation is paramount . . . Madeye-Smiley

Gotta go, long day ahead Little Angel
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little tiger, spot on the French do spend a lot of time on physiology, I have no experience with Austrians but could see it there as well as there coaching is so strong. BASI is well behind, sadly the physilogy and anatomy "module" is buying two books and sending them the receipt... There is nothing skiing specific at all. Sadly, even during a week of theory they dont touch on it...

Masque I was hoping to get some input on Body mechanics from the resident physicians, physios and personal trainers. That would be really interesting IMO and perhaps instead of an open forum setting out a treatise may stimulate more discussion...
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Can I appeal to ALL snowHeads; If during a lesson an instructor comments on your "Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead" or the identical nature of your ski tracks, then PLEASE do not beat him, or her, to death with any large blunt (or sharp) objects near to hand.
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Frosty the Snowman, GBH OK? wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Frosty the Snowman, Do you really think that any instructor would get into the techi level of this discussion with a client on the hill... Or is your point a dig about how nerdy discussions have no place on snowHead 's I thought this thread has taken a turn for the better
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret, no none of them, just my feeble atempt at light hearted drivveliness. You know full well that I think this type of discussion plays a pivotal part in the forum Smile

EDIT: I mentioned 20 pages ago that I had shared a lesson with masque at the eosb and the instructor had mentioned his EITL and I had pissed myself laughing.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Frosty the Snowman, My interest in the thread was because I have had trainees argue with me on the hill. It can be a lot harder to think of suitable responses at -10C.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Wahey. 27 pages wink

Sharing a t-bar this week with a well known and highly regarded (on here) ISTD trainer, I related the crux of the past 26 pages to him, and he was absolutely incredulous that any good skier and/or instructor should even contemplate that they should diverge their feet/boots/skis at the start of the turn, and came to the conclusion that the fools that propogated the inside ski skis a tighter radius camp as well as the diverge your skis camp can't possibly have ever ski'd a clean set of arcs in their life.

We then stood for a while watching some good high level GS racers create some nice clean cresent moon shapes around the gates, with parallel shins, equal edge angles.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
veeeight, You really are a waste of wax. NO one has argued that to begin a turn you deliberately diverge your skis, Divergence is caused by the bio-mechanics of the human body as it absorbs the progressive angles of lean required by the carving turn. Controlling it is the deliberate act.
Differing turn radius of individual skis is proven as it is the reason for similar radius of tracks. It's obvious that you do not have the abilities to even read 27 pages accurately, much less conduct any real-world observation and you certainly don't have any concept of how the flexible relationship of two legs and feet in articulation effects human movement let alone the skiing process.

Misrepresenting the views in this thread to mock us isn't clever, just the sad 'click' of the key to the lock of a closed and terminally stunted mind Crying or Very sad
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

NO one has argued that to begin a turn you deliberately diverge your skis

Oh yes they have. Multiple people, multiple times. Do read carefully!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
veeeight, So let's get this straight . . . you're not an idiot only because some people have said that to begin a turn we start with ski diversion . . . and because of that, all your wilful ignorance is ameliorated? That moves us forward I suppose rolling eyes

All our tail skidding, wedge turn, aspiring carvers will take great comfort from being wrong.

Stop grasping at excuses for being a prick and bring some informed debate to this subject or shove your head back up yer butt and save my fingers from spending more time trying to eliminate the coprolite between your ears.
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Masque wrote:
you're not an idiot

Quote:
Stop grasping at excuses for being a prick

Quote:
or shove your head back up yer butt


Masque with respect, I'm not convinced your communication is moving the argument forward. The last time I checked ( though to be fair it could well have changed rolling eyes ) holding a belief which goes against the main-stream isn't illegal and shouldn't warrant that form of response.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
david@mediacopy, other things are influencing my mood but if you think that I'm stepping over the line I'll remove it But (there's always one). I'm utterly tired of veeeight's obdurate and wilful ignorance that has now just become destructive and I don't feel any remorse in reacting directly toward him in the same manner. He's offered nothing but faux maths, execrable science and laughable explanations for both and has now just reverted to mocking condescension . . . Should I 'suck up' my feelings or treat him in the manner I personally feel appropriate . . . it is a judgement call.

Holding a belief is fine and there is always ambiguity in that . . . but this discussion is not about belief, it's abut a practical and bio-mechanical process that is identifiable, measurable, quantifiable, and reproducible . . . that's applied science with the wonderful variable human factor to make it interesting. veeeight does not have a belief, he has a theory that so far he has been unable to explain with any degree of competence, which for a person in his position, is untenable . . . so I call him a prick . . . harsh, but in my head, applicable.
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veeeight wrote:


We then stood for a while watching some good high level GS racers create some nice clean cresent moon shapes around the gates, with parallel shins, equal edge angles.


V8, please explain how you think the skis are getting separated further from turn initiation to turn apex (to produce your crescent moon track shape), if not via divergence. The other reasonable option would be manually pulling the inside ski sideways to create the larger amount of separation, and if that was done your clean inside ski track would be tossed out of the window. Neither of those options will work and still produce ALL the results you state you see. Please explain to me what idea is spinning around in that head of yours that makes all these numerous individual concepts you're promoting in regard to track types and shapes work together and make sense to you.
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First post on this site - I was searching for posts on Head Monster 78s and wondered how I ended up here, but I see "head", as in "shove your head up yer butt" has been highlighted a few times: it's a funny old world.

Anyway, if Beeryletcher is correct (and I'm sure he is), we're dealing with angle differences in the region of half a degree. I don't think V8, or anyone else, (apart from the Bionic Man), could spot that sort of difference in the leg angles of a fast-moving skier - especially from a ski lift. Slightly daft, therefore, to claim exactly parallel shins / equal edge angles.

Anyone tell me where the Monster thread is?
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archski, err welcome to snowHeads snowHead

Laughing
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Thanks
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FastMan, more than happy to, on the hill, or in a conversation. But not on here. All I will say is that you try it for yourself, just tipping, no rotary. Christ. That sounded like a HH copyrighted sentence! Laughing
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Ah, a novel tactic, by way of a change to answering questions that haven't been asked and refuting points which haven't been put: when a difficult question is posed, simply refuse to answer it. wink
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
david@mediacopy wrote:


Masque with respect, I'm not convinced your communication is moving the argument forward. The last time I checked ( though to be fair it could well have changed rolling eyes ) holding a belief which goes against the main-stream isn't illegal and shouldn't warrant that form of response.

The laws of geometry are just that: laws. They cannot be broken, even by V8 and his stupidity.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
veeeight wrote:
All I will say is that you try it for yourself, just tipping, no rotary.

Ok Let's. You tell me exactly what I need to do in "tipping" and we'll move it along in a civil, constructive discourse.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I think everyone should just give up! You're never going to persuade veeeight round to your way of thinking. You should just post a sweet smiley in response Very Happy And the 'discussion' will die.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
cathy, Frosty the Brains-in-his-Coin-Purse . . has a lot to answer for Confused
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Masque, indeed! I bet he never guessed there were so many worms still around Madeye-Smiley
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
cathy, there are always worms around a corpse . . . Cool
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Good grief, I come back here for the first time in months and this thread is still going?
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paulcl, well actually no - it had thankfully ground to a halt until you posted! Go away!! Toofy Grin

Nothing happening here - move along now.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
cathy, how shall we move along? wink
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Monty Python's armless, legless knight is brought to mind.

Or, following on

Always look on the bright side of life Smile
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laundryman wrote:
cathy, how shall we move along? wink


I think freestyle wink Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
A picture a borrowed from Epic Ski forum;

http://www.snowmediazone.com/the_zone/showphoto.php/photo/14770/ppuser/688

To my 'eye' the skis are not turning at the same radius and the skier has a geat 'A' frame wink How come he is so good Puzzled
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
stewart woodward wrote:


How come he is so good Puzzled

because he's wearing Spyder of course. wink Laughing
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Masque wrote:
cathy, Frosty the Brains-in-his-Coin-Purse . . has a lot to answer for Confused
Ok, I promise to remove the gun from the back of all of your heads. You are no longer under duress and may stop posting on this thread of your own free will Laughing
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