 Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| Seriously 30 days a year unless you want to plateau - with that amount of time you always have time to improve some area of you skiing. Some people could just do more vert in a day. |
That seems about right, if you're at a reasonably high level, but I'm sure you need much less at the earlier levels (although of course more will allow more improvement). I used to do only one week a year until about 6-7 weeks experience and didn't feel any major problem getting back into it. After about that experience level though, I found that my muscles and reflexes didn't get going enough maintain the range of movements I could manage at the end of the previous week until half way though the next - even though I knew what I was trying to achieve. Now with about 30 weeks experience 30 days a year seems about right to keep improving. I do find though that after about 8 days reasonably hard skiing I need a break as my legs are getting a bit shagged - so I try and make it several week long or week end trips rather than a continuous spell.
Also though, please remember
| Martin Bell wrote: |
| It's not just a matter of "weeks"; regular 2-hour sessions at a dry slope or indoor snow slope can be useful. Regular race training on dry slopes is particularly good for youngsters; it's amazing what is now possible through SL courses on plastic with the new breed of SL skis. |
And not only the youngsters  . I started training on plastic 2 years ago. I noticed a huge change in my skiing after 6 months of a couple of hours a week, which continued through the next 6 months to the extent I was a completely different skier then. And continuing with this at a regular 2 sessions a week (one coached, one self-coached), I've been very flattered to be told by a number of people this summer who have said that I'm again a totally different skier now to what I was a year ago.
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| Apparently the average is around 3,500 meters in lift served terrrain. |
Wow, what lightweights people are. I alway feel short-changed if less than 5000 in a day (maybe 4000 if it's a technical instruction day), a typical one would be 6000-7000, a heavy day over 8000, and I did notice it a bit the day after doing 12000  .
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 6-07-07 10:42; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN,
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I started training on plastic 2 years ago
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Where do you go and are there some good instructors? I don't much like the idea of skiing on plastic, but if some decent lessons on a plastic slope will help me get fit/improve my skiing a bit... But I don't want to have to drive for miles to get to somewhere reasonable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, Are you north or south London?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, which side of town are you? I'm at Aldershot and our club is good for those looking as much for technique improvement as racing per se (and to tell the truth is actually better for the former). Our coached session is 8am-9:30 Sat mornings. The other likely places accessibly from London are Bromley, Brentwood, Welwyn, and Hemel. Bromley and Wycombe Phoenix (who now train at Hemel) have particularly good race teams. Nick W is a member of Hemel, and gsb is a member of Wycombe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
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| Apparently the average is around 3,500 meters in lift served terrrain. |
Wow, what lightweights people are. I alway feel short-changed if less than 5000 in a day (maybe 4000 if it's a technical instruction day), a typical one would be 6000-7000, a heavy day over 8000, and I did notice it a bit the day after doing 12000 . |
GrahamN, where is that quote from? I don't see the originating post for context?
I assume that's total vertical? Agreed, I wouldn't be happy with less than 4000m for a 4hr ski session.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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comprex, it's davidof at the bottom of the previous page (08:55 BST)
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Got it, thanks! I see that as more of a comment on the huge number of beginners that make up the average.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| FastMan wrote: |
But as one of the Little Tiger's instructors, I can assure you that approaching my level of skiing is not so far beyond what most have the potential to aspire to. I've spent decades guiding the majority of my students to such levels. It's not a lack of potential that keeps most from getting there, it's lack of desire, or lack of the dedication to do what needs to be done. It's possible for most, but it doesn't come for free. Each individual determines if they're willing to pay the required price of admission to join the exclusive club. |
Arno
That quote is the advice of the coach that wrote the information just above... take it as you wish because "you can lead a horse to water..." and "cast not your pearls before swine..." |
are you saying you can only do hard work in the presence of an instructor?
the thing is, little tiger you're coming across as telling 2 very good skiers (fatbob and JT) and, it seems, me that their/our approach to skiing is wrong and there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgment that people have different goals from their skiing and even those who have the same goals will approach achieving them in the different ways.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Spyderman, GrahamN, sarf London. And it's defo technique improvement that I'm after, not race training.
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There's lots of issues here.
The first How much time do you need a year on snow to improve?
I think Spyderman was spot on with the observation that it depends on where you start, and that if you only have a week under your belt, you can improve enormously with another week (or even a single day in a snowdome!!)
On the other hand it could take years of practice and experience and honing your skills to the nth degree to work your way from the bottom of the top 20 skiers in the world to being in a position to win the Mens downhill season, by shaving those last 30-40 seconds off your average race time.
Then we've had this huge protestation that the only way forward is loads of practice and instruction. Yes, good instruction helps folks like me, but there may come a time when I'm happy to be able to ski most of the mountain (at least I hope that time will come!) and it feels sufficiently like 'riding a bike' to not need more than the occasional refresher to keep my skiing that good. Although, one instructor I spoke to said that they are encouraged to always think about what they are doing to stop if from becoming to taken for granted. This is the tack taken by the Institute of Advanced Motorists. By the time I passed their test they had taught me that I should always be thinking about how I am driving and register more of what was around me than when I started their coaching. I thought my driving was OK before (and it was much better than some), but I've really recognised how much better I am now that I've remembered to watch out for certain things again.
Then we have the issue do you need instruction to improve. Well..............who taught the first instructors, or did they just work it out for themselves? Of course they did and so can people that never have a lesson even now. It's just that some people find instruction helps them to enjoy things, or they like the teaching process or many other reasons. Me, I like the idea that I'm finding out how to do things properly and hope it will help me enjoy the whole mountain quicker.
Also, Do you need some form of latent ability to do a sport - I think a bit of latent ability helps, but most people, bar disability that can't be overcome, can be taught the principles to do most things and be able to carry out most tasks. I think the latent ability perhaps helps with the honing of the skill and perhaps has some bearing on the overall enjoyment factor. I hope I have a bit of latent ability - I do feel that I possess some natural skills in balance and learing ability that will help me ski.
The biggest barrier to time on snow for me (and I would think most folks) is cash, annual leave entitlement, and family commitments. If I don't think I could improve with one - two weeks on snow each year and the odd trip to a snow dome I'd give up now. Yes, we'd all love 13 weeks on the snow each year, or six consecutive weekends each season, but in reality its only going to happen to the privilaged few (and I do wish you'd all stop braggin' about it ). The rest of us will have to make do with what we can get our hands on, and ulitmately I should think we'll all improve lessons or not!!
Here endeth my treatise
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, so what are you saying then? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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boredsurfin, naughty person.
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boredsurfin, That anyone can improve given any amount of time on snow. (Now someone's going to add, why didn't I say that in the first place!)
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, consider the proposition that external instruction helps achieve -consistency- at any given level faster. Therefore, by Hurtle's earlier standard, more happiness.
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| Although, one instructor I spoke to said that they are encouraged to always think about what they are doing to stop if from becoming to taken for granted. This is the tack taken by the Institute of Advanced Motorists. By the time I passed their test they had taught me that I should always be thinking about how I am driving and register more of what was around me than when I started their coaching. I thought my driving was OK before (and it was much better than some), but I've really recognised how much better I am now that I've remembered to watch out for certain things again. |
Or, as previously stated,
constantly changing the idea of what "pushing yourself" means
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| to work your way from the bottom of the top 20 skiers in the world to being in a position to win the Mens downhill season, by shaving those last 30-40 seconds off your average race time. |
I think the 20th best skier in the world would be defying gravity to do that! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boredsurfin, wasn't that David Goldsmith's idea, or was that the other way round?
Megamum, nice post (both of them) - showing moderation and a lack of extremism. We could all learn from that!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, One tip to take with you on the slopes next season:
To maximise your post count try and avoid big long posts. Little and often is the trick 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There are plenty of people that go away for a season to ski.
Most of them become *stronger* skiers, but not necessarily more technically competent skiers.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Frosty the Snowman,  Big grins here!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| comprex wrote: |
| what "pushing yourself" means |
If you are pushing yourself, will you not be in the back seat?
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Whose?
Still have those 210 cm Miller Softs, tandem mount not a problem, LMK your boot sole size and you can have the pilot seat at Stowe?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 6-07-07 11:45; edited 1 time in total
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Frosty the Snowman,
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Little and often is the trick
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So many answers but a family site
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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boredsurfin, I had heard you were the former
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Frosty the Snowman, Johnboy's a farmer
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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To continue to develop performers need to re visit the learning loop. ie they move between the phases of development in to acquired skill, then back in to development again to build a "new" skill, which will then become acquired....and so on. In modern coaching, with better performers, coaches and instructors give less "instruction" and create more " learning opportunities" for the learner to stretch their skills. conscious competence (CC) and un conscious competence (UC) are both competent. However, in the first phase (CC) the performer is always considering. That's
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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edit -the key to continued developmet.
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elbrus, assuming you can find your way round the technobabble
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You know it makes sense.
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elbrus, do those in the know still talk about 21 days from CC to UC? (I've heard that timescale used in a variety of learning scenarios)
If so, then the minimum number of days for any skier to ever properly improve is 21 in a row - the first day is about being taught the skill, and then the next 20 are about "owning it" - which does not come from the instructor, but from the student repeating the skill to move it from CC to UC.
...this could then give us a new definition of the plateau - where anyone who does less than 21 continual days is.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think it's much harder to learn anything as a grown up.
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brian, Too true - more power to that as an observation!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FastMan wrote: |
| ABC, I like your attitude and perspective. I totally agree, to each his/her own,,, and I certainly have no interest in pushing learning on the technically content. I just wonder,,, and this is to those who classify themselves as such; what are you looking to derive from your time spent in the INSTRUCTIONAL forum? Sincerely curious. |
I'd like to challenge this assertion that this is purely an instructional forum. The reason the discussion got a bit side tracked was the original point that mileage made you a better skier was hijacked to my mind by someone who is one of the professionals' loudest advocates. To my knowledge this isn't labelled Instructors only and we've had the debate recently about whether only badge holders should be allowed to post advice which I think was concluded otherwise.
Its obvious - good and appropriate instruction will help to make you better in anything. Obviously top athletes will avail themselves of this as much as possible.
Top athletes will also avail themsleves of anything that will give them the edge hence doping/EPO etc. I recall "studies" that indicated that most high level athletes were so driven they would take a performance drug that would definitely shorten their life if they could guarantee not being caught and have a realistic chance of a gold medal.
Next question is coaching cheating?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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elbrus, You've done the same management training as me. The training route (if memory serves) goes:
Unconsciously incompetent
Consciously incompetent
Consciously competent
and finally Unconsciously competent
(you probably don't want to try quoting that if you've 'had a few')
As indicated by previous posters the circle is repeated whenever a point is learned, be it better balance or a whole new way of turning. In the middle of the list above comes the 'learning the new technique' and the 'practising the new technique'. However, instruction isn't a necessity, but really for practising skiing, being on the snow/dry slope is.
So in theory if practise leads to improvement then whatever extra time you spend on the snow should help, whether you have instuction or not. Even if you never have a lesson, you can practise the technique that works for you and improve.
I guess the question is really what consistutes 'improvement' - is it doing something in the same way as most folks accept is correct, or just getting better at the way you decide to do something?
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 6-07-07 13:18; edited 1 time in total
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brian
brian
Guest
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Megamum, psssst, it's "competent". Quick, edit it before Hurtle turns up
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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brian, Psst....thanks!!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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brian,
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I have to say I don't know many....can't recall any atm...skiers that don't want to improve. If they have a degree of competence they may well be aware of what they would like to fix. They may balance this little issue against not having too much time to spend fixing something that is technical but not limiting in any great way. In most of the groups I ski with, you come to respect and appreciate someone may have a different take on skiing's technical elements. You might nick their idea or technique or vice versa, you'll encourage and like it when they pull off a good move or ski a nice line. They may be having a good day or week and you just have to give them credit. By the same token, they might be struggling for one reason or another, and you will not want to see that. You might pitch in with a tip or two, or you might just cajole them along and wait for them to come good.
If the group didn't have this kind of atitude, you'd probably not be in such a rush to ski with them again. That is not to say they are complacent..they will mostly have spent an awful lot of time getting to their level...and a whole lot more money but there will also be compromises. Do I spend money on instruction, guiding or another week in the snow....take your choice. My own quandry has always been lessons against experience...and I've gone for experience everytime. How has that cost me? am I a lesser skier..? In what way might I be a lesser skier. I garuantee that if I had spent time in lessons it would have been at the cost of some of the blinding days and trials and tribulations I've had. If I want to look pretty and stylish, I think I can handle that in a given place, if I want a sense of achievment of "did I ski that?".... I think back to a time when I dreamt of skiing something like that.
Which path has given me the latter...?? Lessons would have tighten up my technique, I'm sure, but they wouldn't have gotten me to the places I've been to... I am equally sure of that.. I wouldn't have the confidence of knowing I belong there, because I wouldn't have done all the things I have done.
I am not against lessons at all.....and I often say on this MB, get instruction if you are stumped, I just think with the time constraints most of us have, it is a compromise and your choice which way you go....
If I had to do it all over again.. I'd spend the 1st 5 years in lessons ..those were the years that cost me, I think.... and then follow the path that I have taken which is to get out there and do it. Nothing proves you can do it otherwise, IMV.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
we've had the debate recently about whether only badge holders should be allowed to post advice which I think was concluded otherwise.
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I don't recall any conclusions being drawn
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Can all this blah not just be summed up - at least in a forum which is not, in the main, peopled by world class racers - as: do whatever's best for you  That will be different not only for each person, but for each stage in each person's development.
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FAQ
