 Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
I thought the thread title was about milegae - no one doubts the value of instruction but on average I'd guess that given other equal variables a person skiing 3 or more weeks a year will improve faster than a one week a year skier if they are remotely pushing themselves regardless of whether they have lessons. |
I'd say that someone "pushing themselves" and not having lessons will be getting worse... oh they will often ski FASTER, or more agressively... but they will simply be cementing bad technique into place...because most folks idea of "pushing themselves" is skiing stuff that is too steep etc for their skill set -so they ski defensively...
If they were "pushing themselves" by working on skiing slowly on easy terrain (as David Murdoch described above) then they may improve... Skiing slowly and technically well is just so very hard to do.... but that is not most peoples idea of pushing themselves is it?
Guided mileage - or selected mileage (ie what is REALLY at your level or what you need to work on) is brilliant for improvement.... "pushing" mileage is usually terrible for technique... it leads to horribly defensive skiing....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
There are two types of skier, leisure and sport. Nether shall the twain meet. 
Most, if honest will place themselves in the former. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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boredsurfin,
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it is a case of nether the twain shall meet
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What's with this 'nether' then? No, don't answer that. And please let me have my very occasional aspirations. Without aspirations, man is as nothing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
Anyway I didn't think this area was exclusively about instruction but more about exposure to different ideas or tips even if some are incomprehensible or overengineered to my mind. Its not to say I don't enjoy it - its all valid but I do like to challenge the orthodoxy that badge wearers are the only people who can help to improve your skiing, I believe its more in the individual's power. |
OK - just show us ONE world cup athlete that has done it all on individual power.... ONE will suffice as a suitable proof for your challenge I guess... although there are an awful lot of the other sort out there...
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 6-07-07 0:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, Aspire is a very dangerous adjective, as you know 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger, Sorry to interupt your flow but.....do you actually read/believe in what you post on here?
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| little tiger wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
I thought the thread title was about milegae - no one doubts the value of instruction but on average I'd guess that given other equal variables a person skiing 3 or more weeks a year will improve faster than a one week a year skier if they are remotely pushing themselves regardless of whether they have lessons. |
I'd say that someone "pushing themselves" and not having lessons will be getting worse... oh they will often ski FASTER, or more agressively... but they will simply be cementing bad technique into place...because most folks idea of "pushing themselves" is skiing stuff that is too steep etc for their skill set -so they ski defensively...
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"pushing yourself" also includes constantly changing the idea of what "pushing yourself" means.
Those changes can come from within or without.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| little tiger, Sorry to interupt your flow but.....do you actually read/believe in what you post on here? |
hmm! Thought as much .................................... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
OK - just show us ONE world cup athlete that has done it all on individual power.... ONE will suffice as a suitable proof for your challenge I guess... |
No, one -change- suffices. Bode Miller on shaped skis.
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boredsurfin, worse than that... so do my instructors... 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| comprex wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
OK - just show us ONE world cup athlete that has done it all on individual power.... ONE will suffice as a suitable proof for your challenge I guess... |
No, one -change- suffices. Bode Miller on shaped skis. |
Bode was coached - sorry bzzzzzt!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, Perhaps My Snow sports would be a better audience 
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 6-07-07 0:32; edited 1 time in total
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| little tiger wrote: |
| comprex wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
OK - just show us ONE world cup athlete that has done it all on individual power.... ONE will suffice as a suitable proof for your challenge I guess... |
No, one -change- suffices. Bode Miller on shaped skis. |
Bode was coached - sorry bzzzzzt! |
Not to make the change he wasn't. That came out of his creative play. And it made all the difference.
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You know it makes sense.
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the premise fatbob had was that it was ALL done on individual power... not trained and coached to a level where you know your abilities and have a definite measure (clock) to define what works....and what does not...
remember Fatbob does NOT believe in training and coaching
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| little tiger wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
Anyway I didn't think this area was exclusively about instruction but more about exposure to different ideas or tips even if some are incomprehensible or overengineered to my mind. Its not to say I don't enjoy it - its all valid but I do like to challenge the orthodoxy that badge wearers are the only people who can help to improve your skiing, I believe its more in the individual's power. |
OK - just show us ONE world cup athlete that has done it all on individual power.... ONE will suffice as a suitable proof for your challenge I guess... although there are an awful lot of the other sort out there... |
FISH!
I talk about apples then get asked to prove pears unless I'm missing something here 
Nevertheless I'll bite
"Power" = drive, ambition, focus, innate talent etc. I'd be very surprised if any world cup athletes have been ordinary joes who have been transformed by exceptional coaching.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
the premise fatbob had was that it was ALL done on individual power... not trained and coached to a level where you know your abilities and have a definite measure (clock) to define what works....and what does not...
remember Fatbob does NOT believe in training and coaching |
I congratulate you on your flawless logic.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I'd be very surprised if any world cup athletes have been ordinary joes who have been transformed by exceptional coaching. |
Bob, WC racers are exceptional athletes whose skills were honed and potential fulfilled through the assistence of outstanding coaching.
Did you see Michael Jordan try to play baseball,,, or Golf? Get my point?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 6-07-07 0:50; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You can beat yourself up too much about all this. It's a hobbie to most of us and we like to do as much as poss and as well as poss'.
Its a technical sport but we do most of it because of the buzz we get. I'm not looking for the perfect turn, just another good run in good snow with some good ski buddies most of the time. Sure, I push things a bit but you can burn yourself out.
I agree the most fun I had was in that 1st beginning week. I have had some blinding days since and some very memorable ones last year. I'll even go back for more of the same but it is, for most of us, a hobbie.
Lighten up a bit, if you enojoy it, thats enough, All this talk can sound like a driven obsession and is a bit too intense.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob,
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race”
Calvin Coolidge
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Of course, JT. How intense the pursuit of excellence is ultimately up to the individual. Neither side, the casual or the intense, should criticize the other. Neither is wrong, just different. But with that said, the reality of how improvement comes, for those who seek it, is not all that flexible.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| I'd be very surprised if any world cup athletes have been ordinary joes who have been transformed by exceptional coaching. |
Bob, WC racers are exceptional athletes who's skills were honed and potential fulfilled through the assistence of outstanding coaching.
Did you see Michael Jordan try to play baseball,,, or Golf? Get my point? |
Absolutely agree, Can't see I've said otherwise. No. Was he not as good as at basketball but still better than 90+% of the population?
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| little tiger wrote: |
I'd say that someone "pushing themselves" and not having lessons will be getting worse... oh they will often ski FASTER, or more agressively... but they will simply be cementing bad technique into place...because most folks idea of "pushing themselves" is skiing stuff that is too steep etc for their skill set -so they ski defensively...
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I'd say this is complete dangly bits......
'Assuming they had bad technique'... why must they have bad technique..? just because they have hadn't a stackful of lessons..?
I know a few naturally sporty people who ski pretty well without lessons, and I know a few people who have had an awful lot of lessons who don't.
It is possible to pick out the mechanics and apply them without lessons. This is not to say that lessons aren't helpful to a lot of people..................for all the good instructors out there..........but this kind of pious crock of shite gets my goat.
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| fatbob wrote: |
little tiger
I fear you're a bit of a technique snob. I am sure the instructors you ski with are much better skiers than most of us could ever aspire to but to suggets only the intensively coached can enjoy relaxed skiing seems a bit far fetched.
We all have a bit of a giggle at the truly inept I'm sure but plenty of people enjoy skiing at theri own pace without regular coaching. |
It's true, Bob, that relaxed enjoyment can be experienced at lower skilled levels. People can discover ways to negotiate the slope in emotional comfort without necessarily developing a broad skill set. But as one of the Little Tiger's instructors, I can assure you that approaching my level of skiing is not so far beyond what most have the potential to aspire to. I've spent decades guiding the majority of my students to such levels. It's not a lack of potential that keeps most from getting there, it's lack of desire, or lack of the dedication to do what needs to be done. It's possible for most, but it doesn't come for free. Each individual determines if they're willing to pay the required price of admission to join the exclusive club.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
I'd say that someone "pushing themselves" and not having lessons will be getting worse... oh they will often ski FASTER, or more agressively... but they will simply be cementing bad technique into place...because most folks idea of "pushing themselves" is skiing stuff that is too steep etc for their skill set -so they ski defensively...
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| JT wrote: |
I'd say this is complete dangley bits......
'Assuming they had bad technique'... why must they have bad technique..? just because they have hadn't a stackful of lessons..?
I know a few naturally sporty people who ski pretty well without lessons, and I know a few people who have had an awful lot of lessons who don't.
It is possible to pick out the mechanics and apply them without lessons. This is not to say that lessons aren't helpful to a lot of people..................for all the good instructors out there..........but this kind of pious crock of shite gets my goat. |
JT, you're right,,, it's absolutely possible to self teach and end up highly technically competent. But the fact is, such an outcome is not the rule. Generally, people who just go out and do it, with no quality outside guidance will just refine the survival orientated habits they employed from the get-go to higher levels of inefficient expertise. Especially when they push the terrain thresholds. What LT says is generally quite accurate",,, excluding the rare few individuals you refer to. Certainly her comments are not deserving of the label "a crock of brown stuff.
I'm not passing judgement. If they're enjoying the sport within their manner of approaching it, then more power to them, and carry on. I'm just sharing my observations of reality.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 6-07-07 2:23; edited 1 time in total
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| FastMan wrote: |
| Get my point? |
| fatbob wrote: |
| No. Was he not as good as at basketball but still better than 90+% of the population? |
OK, I'll try again. He was a freakishly gifted athlete who was not even good enough to play minor league ball, outside of being granted a spot as a seat selling novelty. Had he put the time/training/effort, and received the coaching in baseball he did in basketball,,, it's pretty reasonable to assume that with his absurd natural athletic gifts he could have honed his skills, and played at the top level. And the opposite holds true. If he had pursued basketball in the manner he did baseball, I'm sure people would not know who the heck I'm even talking about.
To realize one's full potential takes it all,,, hard training, great coaching, steadfast dedication. Regardless of how much potential exists. Shortcuts exist only in the minds of marketers and dreamers.
But to make sure I'm not discouraging any readers,,, let me assure you all that getting to that top 10 percent figure Bob referred to is not at impossibly tough . A good portion of skiing's participants could get there quite quickly under the proper training program. Yes, even you!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry I can't help but to jump in. This thread has turned into a battle between the "learning is everthing" vs. the "I enjoy doing it badly" crowd! I think I can see both sides.
*** On the one side, there're those who enjoy the learning process almost just for the learning's sake!
I'm one who ENJOYS THE LEARNING! I could not care less about what I achieve, top 20%, 10% or top 1%. The reality is I'm usually not even top 10% in most sport, but I enjoy the learning process so much I keep trying. So much so I'm quite glad I'm NOT at the top 10% because I've got so much LEFT to learn still. Every little improvement was reward enough to motivate me to learn more intensely. The process continues...
*** Then, there's the other side. The learning was merely a "neccessary evil" to endure for the enjoyment it opens up.
Not everyone enjoy being humiliated, or to "work" on one's holidays. For many, as for me in some other (usually non-sporty) activities, I don't intend to get any better. I enjoy doing it, however badly. Sometimes, the balance dictates even if I know I WILL enjoy it more if I get better, there's not much incentive to bother because whatever enjoyment I have is, well, "good enough" for the moment. So, even though occasionally I would try to "improve" a bit, it's not the purpose of the activity, just a momentary passing itch.
All that talk about enjoying more as one get better is NOT universal. Not for everone, nor all the time even for those who enjoys learning. For those who are "learn-a-holic", I hope that fact is not too hard to grasp?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FastMan,
If the poster had temprered her post with the words 'may' or some such rather than the absolute tone that she used, I'd be more.sympathetic.
But I think she might love the sound of her own voice a little too much. Having a stack of lessons regarding skiing gives her a point of view thats all.
.......and what works for you works and all that, but it isn't gospel.
As it happens,
I've seen fatbob ski and he would be in the top 1-2% of  technically, IMO.
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| JT wrote: |
FastMan,
If the poster had temprered her post with the words 'may' or some such rather than the absolute tone that she used, I'd be more.sympathetic.
But I think she might love the sound of her own voice a little too much. Having a stack of lessons regarding skiing gives her a point of view thats all.
.......and what works for you works and all that, but it isn't gospel.
As it happens,
I've seen fatbob ski and he would be in the top 1-2% of technically, IMO. |
Your "absolute" comment is legitimate, as her contention of outcome is definitely not absolute. But her perspective certainly is the rule, so your response of "crock of doo-doo" makes her much closer to correct than you. That's what can happen when one lets their anger/emotion override their intellect and commitment to accuracy. Little Tiger has learned very much through her respectable multi-year pursuit of excellence in the sport. Her acquired base of knowledge now surpasses that of many (dare I say most) instructors. If you can find it within yourself to overlook the sentence structure and presentation style you seem to abhor, you might be surprised to find that a wealth of valuable information dwells within her comments.
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You know it makes sense.
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ABC, I like your attitude and perspective. I totally agree, to each his/her own,,, and I certainly have no interest in pushing learning on the technically content. I just wonder,,, and this is to those who classify themselves as such; what are you looking to derive from your time spent in the INSTRUCTIONAL forum? Sincerely curious.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 6-07-07 5:11; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| Martin Bell, but... and accepting your prior comments...if you had an ideal student with normal work life commitments and healthy work-life balance (?) - what would be your suggestion as to their skiing cadence? |
Well, leaving aside dry/indoor slopes for a moment, say that person had a choice between a single fortnight's trip or 6 weekends spread through the season, perhaps at two or three week intervals. Both amounting to 12 days on snow. You could almost argue for the latter, as the student would be physically (and mentally) fresh each weekend.
(With one proviso: low-altitude skiing. For sea-level dwellers skiing somewhere high like, say, Colorado, the acclimatisation effect becomes very beneficial in the second week.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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this is to those classify themselves as such; what are you looking to derive from your time spent in the INSTRUCTIONAL forum?
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My take on this is everyone who browse this particular forum are TO SOME DEGREE interested in learning the technical. It's the attitude that "if you're not dedicated, you might as well don't bother" that grates on many nerves.
Having argued for both sides, I think most snowheads falls somewhat between the two extreems. So, say, the original poster who started the thread about getting off the intermediate plateau, he's interested in learning but by no means dedicated. And I might hazard to guess, if push comes to shove, he may very well get "turned off" by the too-serious type who had no patience for his not-so-dedicated yet willing-to-learn-sometimes attitude.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| little tiger wrote: |
fatbob,
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race”
Calvin Coolidge |
i think this argues more in favour of milage than lessons. who wants to be an "educated derelict" - skiing the same blue runs but with perfect technique?
hey, guess what, it's different for everyone. sure, it's difficult to improve without some lessons, but the ideal ratio of lessons to practice and just messing about is different for everyone. for most people, perfect technique (if such a thing exists) is not an end in itself. functional technique which allows them to ski the things they want to ski is the goal.
i took a whole season during which i had one formal lesson. i improved massively. at the end of the season, i did half a BASI course (knee knack half way through) which was also very beneficial because I learnt what i was now doing right and i found lots of stuff to improve
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| FastMan wrote: |
But as one of the Little Tiger's instructors, I can assure you that approaching my level of skiing is not so far beyond what most have the potential to aspire to. I've spent decades guiding the majority of my students to such levels. It's not a lack of potential that keeps most from getting there, it's lack of desire, or lack of the dedication to do what needs to be done. It's possible for most, but it doesn't come for free. Each individual determines if they're willing to pay the required price of admission to join the exclusive club. |
Arno
That quote is the advice of the coach that wrote the information just above... take it as you wish because "you can lead a horse to water..." and "cast not your pearls before swine..."
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Learning is a process that requires a change in behaviour (changing what you are already doing). this process takes time as you brain re programmes conflicting pieces of information (ie the idea you currently hold, and the new idea introduced). Most skiers want answers and instant solutions, unfortunately it doesn't work like that. A ski lesson can take you from the unconscious incompetence phase to the conscious incompetent phase (you become aware that change is needed to improve performance). You then move in to the development phase and that takes time and practice. The centres in the UK are a good source of maintenance training. Here you can improve movement repetition etc. To really get better you need to spend at least a couple of weeks in the open mountain. That's the only way you can realistically work through the learning phases I think.
Peter Silver Gillespie
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Edit - Pete Silver-Gillespies words. I cant take credit!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
There are two types of skier, leisure and sport. Nether shall the twain meet.
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Absolutely, but within the "leisure" group there's a lot of variation. I am definitely a leisure skier, even though I spend a lot of time at it, now we have an apartment in a ski resort. But I do like to improve, do recognise that just swooshing round the mountains won't achieve that (albeit it pushes up your confidence level) and do like to take lessons. I have friends who have skied for ages, a week a year, who haven't improved since I first skied with them 15 years ago, because they don't take lessons and just enjoy pootling about. My potential for improvement is limited by my age, my inability to afford too many high quality lessons and, I guess, a lack of natural athletic talent. I have skied with some very talented athletes (two of my nephews) who have made prodigious progress in a week, and who would be better with four weeks of quality instruction than I could ever be. One of them, on day three, after two hours of private lessons, when I was practising turns on the inside foot, and succeeding not more than 60% of the time, asked curiously what I was doing, and when I explained, he just did it. And obviously wondered why I was making such a production about it!
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pam w,
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I am definitely a leisure skier...but I do like to improve, do recognise that just swooshing round the mountains won't achieve that (albeit it pushes up your confidence level) and do like to take lessons... My potential for improvement is limited by my age, my inability to afford too many high quality lessons and, I guess, a lack of natural athletic talent.
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That describes me too. There are obviously lots of people who are not polarized at the extreme ends of this debate. It doesn't bother me if little tiger occasionally gets carried away with her passion for the pursuit of excellence - her basic assertion that you can't achieve anything without effort is self-evidently correct and doesn't deserve any criticism at all.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| I felt a huge difference two seasons ago when I managed 57 (IIRC) days skiing. |
You weekend warrior, you!
Seriously 30 days a year unless you want to plateau - with that amount of time you always have time to improve some area of you skiing. Some people could just do more vert in a day. Apparently the average is around 3,500 meters in lift served terrrain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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having seen JT, & fatbob, ski I can confirm that they both nervous skiers. To see them both struggle on the gentle blues of the Les Deux Alpes glacier was rather embarrassing. Needless to say that until both invest seriously in a band of their own personal instructors, neither will be getting an invite on my gnarly La Grave trip next year.
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FAQ
