 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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techno jargo transltion
Unconsciously incompetent - you are c**P and you dont know it ( you may not care)!
Consciously incompetent - you are c**p and you now know it, your going to do something about it!
Consciously competent - When you think, you can make positive changes and performance is improved.
and finally Unconsciously competent - you new learned skills are automatic, now you need to re visit the learning loop.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| veeeight don't start! |
Isn't that what boredsurfin says to the Ford dealship at least once a week?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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elbrus, Precisely!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've skiied with Fatbob, and "nervous" is an understatement - he was down right camera shy!
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elbrus, guess what? I actually managed to work those out! And where does commonsense come into all this? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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JT, technobabble, management-speak and now soft porn. Dear oh dear. 
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JT, post it! What's the worst that could happen - oh, yeah, actually, for your own sake, maybe don't! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
It wouldn't be so very bad if that was how I normally ski....but I was admiring some guys laying down some huge carved turns and thought I'd try it.....(the sort where you can scrape the snow with your inside hand and they were vertically horizontal - it looked very cool) well, I got nowhere near what they were trying to do and so it looked liked I had this giant outrigger of a ski... I wondered why fatbob was so puzzled. So on review, I had this A frame thing going on which I have never ever had in my life.
If that was my regular thing, I'd have to hold my hand up, post it and be damned as it were
What I will be concentrating on this year is to get my good angulation back ( I don't know where that went ) and recentre my stance, FWIW
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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JT, to get recentred, try skiboards for a couple of runs. Apart from having everyone laughing at you, they can be good for getting you back to the centre.
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brian
brian
Guest
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You know it makes sense.
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brian, if he doesn't take lessons, he'll end up skiing like that the rest of his life... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One of the things that a coach or instructor can help with is the development of internal feedback. If a skier can feel that they are say, skidding or carving, they are then able (hopefully) change what they are doing and feel the difference.
Once a skier can feel what's going on under their ski's they will be able to make faster progress when out free skiing for fun. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks, Bob and JT, for your responses to my question. I get what you're saying, and respect your right to make your own choices on how you pursue the sport, and your development while in it. I come from such a different philosophical place, I doubt what I have to offer would be of much help to guys like you. I've spent 30 years in a very structured environment where training was intense and continuous, and the results were extremely high. The skills my students walked away with after multiple years in my program were of a variety only a small group of skiers on the planet even have a concept of. There's a rather defined set of skills that need to be developed to allow one's skiing to move in the direction of that level. Once these skills are developed independently, they can be combined into a package that makes for an extremely competent and versatile skier. This skill development approach is the most productive path I know for busting off of stubborn intermediate ability plateaus
I know many don't have the time or money to pursue a full time training program the likes of which I'm describing here, much less the access. This is why I'm currently in the process of developing a Internet training program that would allow people to self train according to a well founded skill development system. But even to utilize this self administered training program will require the student to sacrifice freeski time in favor of dedicated drilling. The main benefit will be financial, but the results will only reflect the efforts the participant is willing to commit.
I personally have always found the learning/growing process very rewarding, as have the students I've worked with. It never seemed like a sacrifice, the process itself was the enjoyment, the source of the payoff if you will. Each stride forward, each step up the ability ladder, provides a high and opens a door to a new level of experience and enjoyment in the sport. But that's not everybodies mind set. We're all beings put together of different stuff. I can only offer to those so inclined my experiential knowledge of what works,,, lend them a map that will take them where they want to go.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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FastMan,
I appreciate your fairminded approach. I can perfectly see how your approach works for racers or in the US adult market. When I go to the US I see a hell of a lot of very good skiers who aren't in lessons/programmes but "just do it". It is impossible to tell how many of them grew up in junior race programmes. I suspect that many were and ideally this would be the model for all of us. Unfortunately its a luxury. If people get a kick out of it then that's fine but those who denigrate others because they don't buy all the technobabble or are calibrated differently as to what is fun need to lighten up occasionally.
AS an aside and this is possibly a source of some of my bias. There are a lot of very good snowboarders out there. How many have got to their level by continuous incremental tuition and how many have learnt as they went after early lessons? I don't think snowboarding has ever had the same depth of teaching infrastructure as skiing but people still get pretty good at it. Freestyle obviously now has specialist coaches as do other competitive disciplines but a lot of what is possible has been defined by individuals themselves - did a coach teach Terje how to ride the Baker banked slalom switch in a time approching that of the fastest regular riders?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, so if it's sarf-wist you're probably best off coming to us, or sarf-east to Bromley. Don't know what they have in the way of programmes, but you should be able to find out here. Also maybe check out Bowles near Tunbridge Wells - ski is an instructor there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
are you saying you can only do hard work in the presence of an instructor?
the thing is, little tiger you're coming across as telling 2 very good skiers (fatbob and JT) and, it seems, me that their/our approach to skiing is wrong and there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgment that people have different goals from their skiing and even those who have the same goals will approach achieving them in the different ways. |
I don't think I said that did I? Simply that the guidance of a coach/instructor avoids the obvious pitfalls (the reason we tell doctors they cannot self prescribe is because you cannot be objective diagnosing yourself... does that apply here??) and that the key is practice of good movement patterns not reinforcement of poor ones...
and I think Fatbob started it right on page one with this
| fatbob wrote: |
little tiger
I fear you're a bit of a technique snob. I am sure the instructors you ski with are much better skiers than most of us could ever aspire to but to suggets only the intensively coached can enjoy relaxed skiing seems a bit far fetched.
We all have a bit of a giggle at the truly inept I'm sure but plenty of people enjoy skiing at theri own pace without regular coaching. |
I had addressed nothing to him or JT at this point... as I've stated previously... if they dislike the concept of technique so much why read or post in threads about the same? Exactly what is it about the fact that I find instruction and practice useful to improvement that makes them feel the need to attack me? I do not go to the threads on their trips and post comments on how they might need lessons because their technique looks crap... they come here and attack me for stating that IMHO there is a very simple way to achieve a fairly high level of skiing...
If I can ski as well as I do given my TOTAL lack of any natural ability then a reasonably athletic person should be able to ski very much better with a lot less work.
Fastman's experience seems to back up that idea... and he has coached some with quite a bit of talent and a lot of dedication... and total gumbies like me!
Even more so the experience of the coaches and instructors I've skied with seems to back that up also... and I've skied with a fair share of them.
If folks choose not to wish to use their natural ability - so be it... but it seems ridiculous to then get annoyed with others because their lack of desire is being pointed out by someone else having one... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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re the "Nature vs Nurture" debate, I think it's pretty obvious you need both to get to a high level. To get to any particular level you probably need less of one the more you have of the other. Having skied with both JT and fatbob, I'd say they were both pretty good skiers, and are capable of handling some pretty advanced terrain, but could probably both be technically much better skiers (and so handle even more advanced terrain) with a bit of coaching. As JT said though, it's a question of priorities - do you want to spend your available snow time doing technical exercises, or getting out there and just doing 'stuff'?
One of the reasons I do so much dry slope work is that I can do the technique development there (although it has to be said that the opportunity for working on deep snow strategies there is somewhat limited ), and then spend the vast majority of my snow time doing 'stuff' - mostly with guides, or on instructional courses where the "pushing it" bit is provided by the instructor searching out terrain to stretch the technique.
| Megamum wrote: |
| I guess the question is really what consistutes 'improvement' - is it doing something in the same way as most folks accept is correct, or just getting better at the way you decide to do something? |
I think that both can be considered as improvement, at any given level or just above it. The benefit of working on the "correct" way though is that at some point the "incorrect" way will result in hitting a brick wall and improvement is halted until you change the way you are trying to do it. I think the "correct" way of doing stuff is the result of a load of trial and error in the past and someone worked out that this way worked best. We then get the benefit of that information without having to make the mistakes they did. As in most things in life, the "correct" way may also change in time if circumstances (e.g. available technology) change - which is what I guess the mgmt BSsers call a "paradigm shift".
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 6-07-07 20:48; edited 1 time in total
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ooops
I see that Fastman already described it much better than I can ever manage to do...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
I'd say that someone "pushing themselves" and not having lessons will be getting worse... oh they will often ski FASTER, or more agressively... but they will simply be cementing bad technique into place...because most folks idea of "pushing themselves" is skiing stuff that is too steep etc for their skill set -so they ski defensively...
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This is what you said... quite authoritively and matter of fact.
To me, there isn't any leeway in those words... it is absolute
So I said it was dangly bits...
Fastman chipped in and its all there from page 2.
I know you have very strong views about instruction.....I've heard some of them 1st hand..... thats fine, what suits you... but others might not nessecarily agree. And I don't.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JT wrote: |
| little tiger wrote: |
I'd say that someone "pushing themselves" and not having lessons will be getting worse... oh they will often ski FASTER, or more agressively... but they will simply be cementing bad technique into place...because most folks idea of "pushing themselves" is skiing stuff that is too steep etc for their skill set -so they ski defensively...
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....
To me, there isn't any leeway in those words... it is absolute
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check out the bold part for a start...
JT,
what you did not post was the post I was responding to
| fatbob wrote: |
I thought the thread title was about milegae - no one doubts the value of good instruction but on average I'd guess that given other equal variables a person skiing 3 or more weeks a year will improve faster than a one week a year skier if they are remotely pushing themselves regardless of whether they have lessons.
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which fatbob wrote after i told him to stop posting here if he disliked instruction so much...
Yes I stand by my comment... if you are pushing yourself REGARDLESS of whether you have lessons ... ie if you are pushing yourself without taking lessons but just relying on the mileage alone to make you a great skier then you will in fact be going backwards towards that goal... because you will be reinforcing skills that may in fact be less than useful... at some point if you WANT to improve you are going to have to undo this...
Want an example?
How about my ex? Exceptional natural athlete re surfing and swimming... great eye amazing natural balance great sense of flow very graceful naturally.... Now eventually he became an instructor trainer and trained instructors and skiers all around the world... BUT before he could get to there he spent quite a bit of time undoing some of his bad habits... he is the first to admit that even for the athletically gifted a few lessons are kind of handy! they give you a focus to use all that mileage on...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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JT my advice to you is let her "win" she doesnt seem to understand this is a forum for "debate" and "points of view". she dominates threads with long winded pedantic arguements that she refuses to give up on, clinging to small points of issue and spoils what can be a lively give and take. [/b]
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skimottaret, you have no idea how many ski instructors I know that can tell almost your exact story... they have a couple of beginner lessons, think they are pretty good at self teaching... get to what they think is a reasonable or even good or very good level.... and somehow end up doing an instructor clinic.... and discover how much they do not know yet .
Suddenly they decide their skiing is nothing like as good as it could be and spend a fair bit of energy improving it...
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, dont really understand your last post are you talking about your ex? but i will take the same advice i gave JT and go to bed......
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, no just a heap of the instructors I know... not my instructors but instructor buddies I drink coffee with, ski with, eat with, cook with, drink with etc...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
There's a topic elsewhere where, inter alia comments are being made about needing more than a week a year.
My own opinion is that that assertion is correct. I mean, you wouldn't expect to be able to learn to play tennis (or golf) at a high level if you only put in one week a year, would you?
My skiing improved generally most and fastest when I did full seasons - i.e. 16 consecutive weeks of at least 5 days a week on snow. Although I will admit that it made the fastest marginal improvements with a few lessons with a couple of really, really good instructors.
That said, I felt a huge difference two seasons ago when I managed 57 (IIRC) days skiing. I would point out that I held down a full time job at the same time.
What do you reckon? |
If you are over 30, you need atleast 2 consecutive weeks of snowtime per year.
The body is in decline. The body learns slower and forgets faster.
At this age, 2 back-to-back weeks are worth atleast 3 annual one-week trips.
If you are under 30, a week per year will do it. But don't expect to be Franz Klammer anytime soon.
Lessons are the icing on the cake for all riders. The can make good into great. They are notably useful for unlearning bad or subconscious habits.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 6-07-07 22:59; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, GrahamN, thanks so much, guys. None is exactly on the doorstep, but I'll have a think.... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Megamum wrote:
I guess the question is really what consistutes 'improvement' - is it doing something in the same way as most folks accept is correct, or just getting better at the way you decide to do something?
I think that both can be considered as improvement, at any given level or just above it. The benefit of working on the "correct" way though is that at some point the "incorrect" way will result in hitting a brick wall and improvement is halted until you change the way you are trying to do it. I think the "correct" way of doing stuff is the result of a load of trial and error in the past and someone worked out that this way worked best.
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GrahamN, I think the correct way of doing things is an interesting point in itself. Who is to say what is correct and for how long that will remain the case. At the moment there is an 'accepted' way of tootling these little carving skis down the mountain. Before their invention everyone already thought they were skiing properly on their enormous planks. Upon their invention someone decided somehow that their shape lent itself to a certain technique and cobbled together something that at the moment works and is accepted. There is no certainty that that this will not change in the future.
For example, when I learned to ride horses 30 years ago, riding style had already changed from that accepted the 20-30 years previous to that time. Equipment had changed little, but technique had marched forward and changed. Those people riding in the previously correct style were now deemed incorrect, despite probably being experts in that technique. I learned the then modern riding technique and was quite good at it - you might call me quite an expert. Now, technique has changed again and if I get on a horse now, using equipment that still hasn't changed since I learned to ride I now don't ride 'correctly' because the defintion of 'correct' has changed again - and no doubt will again in the future. I have little doubt that skiing technique will not stand still either - so who defines what is the 'correct' way to ski (or ride a horse for that matter). I read the thread regarding whether instructors need to update their skills with interest because of exactly this argument.
B.t.w. w.r.t.
| Quote: |
We all have a bit of a giggle at the truly inept I'm sure but plenty of people enjoy skiing at theri own pace without regular coaching.
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Fatbob please don't laugh at them (it was once me though hopefully I've crept just past that point now - it may even have once been you), they are probably trying their hardest and you won't do their confidence any good if they catch you doing so
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, You're absolutely right about things changing. If the first instructor says, "Bend your knees", the next one will say, "Straighten up." One will encourage you to, "Hug a tree, hold a tea-tray etc" but the next will say, "Lower your arms". Whilst you have just got to grips with, "Always have your upper body facing down the slope", along will come the guy who tells you to, "Follow (not lead!) your body round with the carve of the skis".
And if anyone laughs at you, just think they were once beginners too and probably worse. Alternatively, just think they're complete arses and forget about them!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, actually folks carved on those old skis too.... it just required more ability usually to perform that particular skill than on todays skis... IIRC Fastman, and my 2 regular instructors all carved back in the days on those skis.... none of them ski "old style" they just changed over
maggi,
That is why my choice is to have some consistency to my instruction... also by focusing on skills rather than a certain "look" you can avoid some of that (I had a problem with looking like a canadian aftger skiing with them for a bit... then ditching the canadian look.... then having to look like a canadian again... no real problem because we were still working on the same skills - but it was frustrating as you describe.... so we did a deal that we could all live with)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| maggi wrote: |
| Megamum, You're absolutely right about things changing. If the first instructor says, "Bend your knees", the next one will say, "Straighten up." One will encourage you to, "Hug a tree, hold a tea-tray etc" but the next will say, "Lower your arms". Whilst you have just got to grips with, "Always have your upper body facing down the slope", along will come the guy who tells you to, "Follow (not lead!) your body round with the carve of the skis". |
I'm suspecting there might be a different problem at play as well.
Sometimes a drill is exaggerated to emphasize a point. So by the time you go to the next instructor, he look at the exaggerated movement and frown... And start having you "correct" those exagerated movements! 
At a higher level, more emphasis are place on "snow feel" rather than a copy-cat movement imitation. There's less of those kind of raise your hand, lower your shoulder kind of strict "style" focus.
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| Quote: |
LITTLE TIGER SAID;
Megamum, actually folks carved on those old skis too.... it just required more ability usually to perform that particular skill than on todays skis... IIRC Fastman, and my 2 regular instructors all carved back in the days on those skis.... none of them ski "old style" they just changed over |
See, this is what I'm trying to tell you folks,,, the girl has acquired an outstanding base of knowledge. Little Tiger is absolutely right; carving did not emerge as a new technique with the introduction of the shape ski. It's been a staple technique in the race community for as far back as I can remember (yikes, that would be when I was racing in the early 60's). The only difference is that now increased sidecuts provide a wider range of turn shapes that can be carved arc to arc, which allows carved turns to be executed at more reasonable speeds, thus making it a technical option available to the masses.
But Megamum, you are very right too. What is considered technically "right" and "wrong" is certainly very trendy and temporary. I'm speaking specifically of what we see come out of teaching organizations like PSIA. Invariably we see new themes emerge rapidly, only to be replaced with supposedly even better themes in short order. It's endless,,, I've watched it happen for decades. It was just a few years ago that "proper" was considered to be completely square to the skis, with 50-50 weight distribution between inside and outside feet. Now they're coming to understand counter and outside foot dominance do have some virtue.
I chuckle every time I see new themes burst onto the scene, and instructors pile on to endorse them without really understanding the true technical fundamentals of the sport. The reality is that there are technical truths that have held up through the ages, and still do today. I guess I'm aware of this because I've lived, raced and taught through all the idiotic "themes" as they came and went. The more knowledgable don't get swept away by the new themes. They understand it's a sport of skills which are used as needed to suit the particular situation, or to best achieve what a skier purely out of choice may want to do. That basket of skills has changed very little over the years. The more of these various skills skiers can develop, the more options they will have at their disposal to perform in the manner they choose, or achieve the outcome they desire.
As an example: from a strictly energy usage standpoint, standing relatively fore/aft centered (equal weight on front and back of foot) provides the most bang for the buck. Move way forward,,, or way back,,, and suddenly we are leveraging against the boot and holding ourselves up via extra muscular strain. But,,, such fore or aft stances can provide situational benefits. Moving forward at the start of a turn hyper loads the front of the ski, which when needed provides a very aggressive start to a turn. Moving aft coming out of a turn can allow the skis to release the energy stored in them forward, promoting a smooth flow into the new turn. Or,,, hyper loading the tails can provide a means to sharpen the finish of a turn when needed.
There are plenty more examples, but I think you get my drift. While there are definite differences in states of efficiency, there are times when moving out of those most energy efficient states can provide real benefits. It's just as Megamum says,,, right and wrong is not absolute. What some consider "wrong" are actually skills skiers should keep in their pockets, always available to use when needed. The truth is, it's not so much a matter of right or wrong, as it's an issue of deficiencies. When skiers have limited skills, and depend on a single options for all situations, performance can at times be more challenging than it need be.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
If you are over 30, you need atleast 2 consecutive weeks of snowtime per year.
The body is in decline. The body learns slower and forgets faster.
At this age, 2 back-to-back weeks are worth atleast 3 annual one-week trips.
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This yaer I had 2 ski holidays that were 2 weeks apart.
I found it quite useful to have everything fresh in the mind.
Therefore Whitegold may have a point
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, Brentwood in Essex may be good for you depending on your location in london it is straight out on the A12
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Megamum, For sure, fashions come and go. I think its good to think of things in terms of what works - take for example your riding style. Your horse doesn't know you ride 'old school' but it still does the things as you ask of it.
ps. Is it true all horses are called Dobin ?
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FAQ
