 Poster: A snowHead
|
I was thinking back over things that instructors were doing with me this year, and I've finally realised that the start and end of the season featured the same exercise, just put in different ways. It's not one I'd done before, or thought about much, but I'd like to hear what you think about it.
As I remember it (and that's the important bit, cause that's what I've learned, whether it was what they wanted to teach me or not is a different matter)...
Instructor one:
To get the best performance out of a carved turn, start off on your toes (which will mean more pressure on your cuffs), and as you go through the turn, you move from toes to the balls of your feet to the arch - so as you are coming out of the turn, most of your weight is acting through the arch of your foot
If you were to do this standing still, it's the equivalent of pushing your foot through the turn.
When I tried this, I found I could generate more controlled speed through a turn. It felt good, but took some time and practice to dial into it.
Instructor two:
This started off with an exercise, then the explanation. The exercise... firstly get out of your skis, but keep your poles. On a reasonably flat area stand with your left boot pointing straight ahead. Now take your right boot, and place it behind you perhaps 30-40cm back, and point it at a right angle - so that it is pointing to the right, away from you. You want it far enough back that the boot is on its edge. Now, while keeping your left boot stationary, move your right boot round in an arc, keeping it on its edge the whole way round until it is in front of you, at a right angle, but now pointing out to the left.
Now twist your right foot round so it is facing forward, and put your left boot on edge, and repeat the exercise. After you've done 4 or 5 with each foot, turn round and look at your tracks. They should hopefully be like perfectly carved single footed turns - a sharp cut in the snow, no blurred edges, same depth the whole way round, etc.
Now, put your skis on and repeat the exercise when skiing a gentle slope... As you start a turn to the left, you'll have a bit of inside tip lead, so push your right ski around the arc and through the turn. You come out with a bit of tip lead in it, ready for the next turn.
When my turns weren't going well, I just went back and did this exercise, and that got me dialled in quickly. The exercise felt strange, but the effect was good.
Would any instructors like to comment (+ve/-ve) on this (or ask questions)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
Now, put your skis on and repeat the exercise when skiing a gentle slope... As you start a turn to the left, you'll have a bit of inside tip lead, so push your right ski around the arc and through the turn. You come out with a bit of tip lead in it, ready for the next turn. |
Your pushing includes pushing the hip?
The hip above the loaded foot (new outside) is used as a pivot point for the new inside?
edit: (hey, that's the opposite of what you're describing, I like it anyway)
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 25-05-07 22:25; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I'm just holding back for the moment, let someone else put their head above the parapet. It's all too easy to take pot shots on this forum, but no-one seems to want to stick their neck out 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
pull
dam missed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
head above parapet and slightly pissed
to me horribly complicated and not a particularily dynamic execise. Sounds as though instructor 2 is trying to get you to "waist steer" in fastman speak but starting with the outer leg lagging would lead to a weak position and potentially too much upper body rotation. I am sure i will find out tomrrow #2 will be a WC level skier so i am talking b#llocks
off to bed now...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Foxy, why don't you post the video to the second xcercise?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Wear The Fox Hat, What are you doing with your shoulders and torso? Straight down the slope? Following the turn?
Exercise #1 is mildly reminiscent of the short lived and probably mostly forgotten "Jet Turn"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
David Murdoch,
ahh that brings back memories of Martin Heckleman with the odd accent in Ski Tips 2, the jet turn was the dumbest thing i ever heard of. How about that fora sweeping statement. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Memories, bah, I still have the video. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
I have no idea about instructor 2, I'd have to try it, but what instructor 1 is doing just sounds like what you'd normally feel when carving - hips forward and up at the end of the turn into the new one will put you more on your tows and as you go through the fall line you'll naturally come back slightly due to the acceleration and needing a strong position to resist the forces. I find that getting people to think about where they are on their feet (whilst not the ultimate goal) sometimes helps to get the hips doing the "right" thing. We all learn differently though
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I had lessons with Diverskify at the EoSB and he had us doing exercise 2 "Boot skiing" something to do with makeing nice shaped turns if I remember corectly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
skimottaret, A fine generalisation. IIRC, when JCK invented it, it would have been quite useful (Rossi Stratos would have been the tool of choice I believe?). Dead cool if you could do it and a large section in the Sunday Times "We learned to ski".
Back to the question, I'd agree with iblair, #1 sounds like a normal turn. Then againk, I could envisage #2 in the same way. No idea how it would help youget back into the swing of things, but then I'm not a huge fan of needing exercises to do that anyway...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| veeeight wrote: |
| Foxy, why don't you post the video to the second xcercise? |
There is a video of it somewhere - I think. I'll try to find it later today.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| David Murdoch wrote: |
Wear The Fox Hat, What are you doing with your shoulders and torso? Straight down the slope? Following the turn?
Exercise #1 is mildly reminiscent of the short lived and probably mostly forgotten "Jet Turn" |
DM, shoulders & torso are following the turn.
Yes, I can see a similarity to the "Jet Turn", but not as exaggerated a move (from memory, with the JT you ended up almost on your heels when coming out of the turn, this is more subtle - you're never further back than the middle of your arch)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
Sounds as though instructor 2 is trying to get you to "waist steer" in fastman speak but starting with the outer leg lagging would lead to a weak position and potentially too much upper body rotation. I am sure i will find out tomrrow #2 will be a WC level skier so i am talking b#llocks
|
Not really starting with the outside leg lagging, but in the same way that many skiers would have some inside tip lead going into a turn, then you are pushing the outside ski through the arc from the position of starting slightly behind the inside ski, and then as you complete the turn, you have pushed the outside ski forward to being in front of the inside ski. You've completed the turn, and you've got a little inside lead as you go into the next turn.
Instructor 2 isn't a WC racer, so you're safe there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Sounds more like knitting than skiing to me 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Wear The Fox Hat,
| Quote: |
Instructor 2 isn't a WC racer, so you're safe there
|
Few, I was hammered when i posted that and only had a look at the web to check on an ebay bid for skis (outbid sadly) and decided to post drunk, always a bad move....
on exercise one an ex slalom racer teaching us was keen to use that drill as a way to stop the skis chattering on ice and to "use the whole sweetspot" in the bottom of the turn. he explained it as starting off with weight very forward on the shovels of the ski and as the turn progressed slightly transfering your weight back from the toes to the arches to keep as much of the edge engaged as you can....
To avoid "jet turning" and getting on the tails at the transition after having gone from toes to arch you then think about "sucking" your ankles back during the beginning of the new turn.
ps if you have it posting video would be good to understand better..
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I'm not clear whether we're talking about an inside tip lead or outside tip lead. Would make a big difference. Personally I think the middle of the arch is a little far back, I prefer just feeling the front of the arch. However Ex one sounds fairly normal to me too. Ex 2 sounds as though you'd end up with weight on the inside ski - I'm not clear about that one at all. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
...and here's a different explanation of it (from one of the other students)...
| ex-Coal Miner wrote: |
The objective is to do the drill, and then take the sense and feel of it with you on the next few runs.
Start on a gently sloping surface, just slightly off from being completely flat, say the almost-flat part at the start of a nice run. Click out of your bindings, and keep your poles with you. Facing down the slight slope, you want to start by making a circle in the snow with the right leg. Do this by, have your left foot/left boot aimed in the direction you are heading, forwards. Liberally flex the left leg at the knee like you would in a turn. If you had a garden stake or yardstick, and you put that through two belt loops on the front of your pants, the yardstick should stay 90 degrees/perpendicular to the direction you are heading (down the slope), i.e., the stomach and hips in this should not turn. Hands on your hips, or initially use your poles for balancing, start with your right boot behind you, turning with the femur bone, and use the inside edge of the boot to slowly make a nice smooth circle in the snow, radius of about two or three feet.
It should be a nice, clean symmetrical half circle, starting from behind and ending in front of you. Move the boot slowly. The impression the boot leaves in the snow shouldn’t be flat, but should be angled like a carve from a ski on edge, throughout the entire semi-circle. Use the inside edge of the boot to do this. You’re not making the circle with your hips or your body’s midsection, use the femur bone of your right leg to do it. The only thing turning is your right leg, and you’re looking and facing forward like you do when you’re skiing.
Once the half-circle is complete, turn the right foot forward, advance your body forward, and flex the right knee. Then put the left foot behind and do the same ("slide the edge of the boot through the curve") with the left boot. Repeat until you’ve done ten or 12 of these, and have advanced appropriately forward from where you started.
The circles in the snow should be symmetrical and clean shaped, not oblong or elliptical.
The feeling you get from this is what you should feel when you get back in your bindings and go down a run and do some nice, clean, smooth turns. This really works, you become much more aware of how you’re moving a ski through a turn. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, enough of this tai-chi pish, got any skiing vids ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I may be missing it, but I don't actually see an exercise in no 1, it just sounds like a normal turn. The main thing to be careful of though with pressure changes like this is to ensure you recentre at the end of it (something I'm fairly poor at myself). Ways I've been told to ensure this are a) pull forward from you solar plexus or b) try closing the ankles joints fore/aft.
The #2 exercise without skis sounds a bit bizarre, but if it works then fine. I did a bit of concentration on the skis-on thing earlier this season though. I wonder how much this is actually doing what you think you're doing and how much it's correcting an incorrect mental picture. One thing pointed out to me this January (and also last summer) was that I was essentially leaving my outer leg trailing being me during the turn, with a resulting loss of control. Thinking about pulling it forward, and pushing the inner foot back, so it felt to me as if I was trying to do a telemark actually got the inner and outer feet pretty much at the same point in the turn, and got the tips pretty much parallel despite feeling as if the outer tip was well in front. Once the position becomes dialed in mentally though the strange feeling goes away.
(Edit: I assume that bootcam vid isn't trying to do this - I see a fairly pronounced inside tip lead on pretty much all the turns)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 28-05-07 18:08; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Wear The Fox Hat, I included that "leg swinging" drill in a 1997 instructional video I made called "Carving Skills". I claim no credit for inventing it; I nicked it from some other instructor or magazine article (I forget exactly where, probably in the US). It can help accustom some people to various concepts: round arc-to-arc turns, hip angulation, early edge angle (aka "getting inverted" at the start of the turn). As you mentioned, it can also introduce the idea of tip pressure at turn initiation, tail pressure at the end of turn. (A skill that can be useful in some, but not all, skiing and ski-racing situations.)
It's a useful, harmless little piece of mental rehearsal. No more, no less.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| At the time we were skiing on "marginal" (i.e. slushy) conditions, on a fairly flat run out, |
...ah, nun ist alles klar! This may be controversial, but the more grabby/slushy the snow I find the more you need to sit back on your skis to keep speed up, getting the skis to aquaplane. There were a few runs this year it got really wet, and I got as far as having to forget ski technique and pretend I was on water skis!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, At the EoSB this year the excellent Diverskify (Dave from Newgen Meribel) had us doing that very same exercise. I think he called it foot steering. It was our last lesson and we didnt get to practise it much but it seemed to have great potential and is something I would like to be given more instrucion on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| II wrote: |
| I had lessons with Diverskify at the EoSB and he had us doing exercise 2 "Boot skiing" something to do with makeing nice shaped turns if I remember corectly. |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, At the EoSB this year the excellent Diverskify (Dave from Newgen Meribel) had us doing that very same exercise. I think he called it foot steering. It was our last lesson and we didnt get to practise it much but it seemed to have great potential and is something I would like to be given more instrucion on. |
Yes I seem to remember you were the star of the class doing that 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, don't think this one is going to make 8 pages interesting thoughs all the same
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Wear The Fox Hat, No vid, but there is a rather interesting photo somewher of another exercise the excellent Diverskify did with our group.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 29-05-07 8:34; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
CEM, good!
General discussion, some agreement, polite exchanges, and maybe it's sparked a few ideas/memories for others as well as me (but the thread isn't just about me) - I like it! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, please, share it with us (along with an explanation of what you got out of it!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Apologies for the soft romantic camera shot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, what's it about?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
It was about pushing down on the ski as you start to bend the knee when reaching the fall line in the turn. We were wondering how you could be bending the knee and still be "pressing down" on the ski (I think), and about doing it smoothly. oh and about which bits of the foot to be using.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, Alternatively, this is just the preparatory shot and the next one has you as a dead ringer for Sarah Ferguson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
