Which waterproof breathable?

A snowHead

Thinking of getting a new jacket for this year. The last time I bought one the choice was simple Gore-Tex or wet. Now there seems to be a multitude of waterproof breathable fabrics to choose from, Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex XCR, Gore-Tex Paclite, Dermizax, Defender, Venturi, Omni-Tech, HyVent, SmartSkin to name a few. And then there is the further complication of 2 or 3 layers Puzzled

Does anybody know which is best?

A snowHead

Difficult one, in many ways it's down to personal choice, I like 3 layer Goretex, it's hard wearing and more resistant to damage than some of the other products, but it's often more expensive, if you are just going to use it for skiing for a week or two each year for say three seasons you might as well buy a cheaper jacket in fashionable colours, if you wanty something that can be used more often and for longer buy something more expensive, look for a jacket that you can wear plenty of layers under and that has plenty of room arround the arms for good mobility, a wired hood that can be set to give a narrow eyeslit is great for really bad weather.

Mine by the way was from Berghaus and is an extream mountain climbing jacket designed for really horrible weather, it's lasted me for at least 5 years now of regular use

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I was going to recommend Berghaus too, if performance of the overall garment is more important than fashion. The construction of the garment is as important as the fabric.

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I am also looking to get a new jacket this season and will be very interested in this thread. AFAIK GOre Tex XCR is the most bomber waterproof out there and around 25% more breathable than the std Gore tex but not as breathable as some of the other (?) new materials, it seems every brand has their own proprietary fabric. there has always been a trade off between waterproof and breathable. The trend now is towards soft shells which are very waterresistant and extremely breathable, have a softer feel and are less bulky/restrictve and lighter. You would still use a layering system similar to hard shells. Unless you plan to ski in rain or severe storms I think they are they way to go. I find that 95% of the time I do not ski in these sort of conditions but then my old jacket is Gore Tex Smile

If you don't mind paying up for brands like MH, Arcteryx, Patagonia you cannot go wrong either way.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I found Paramo's stuff very good for skiing. It's found a little warm by some - but that's less of a problem at 2000m. However, I tend to be a bit warm generally, and my Velez coped perfectly well with -27 wind chill and warm sunny valleys last year in Laax. I also use it as my main outdoor waterproof and everyday winter coat too, so I'm definitely getting my money's worth. Their Taiga fleece was great, too (though having both on one trip might constitute overkill).

Of course, as in all things, it won't be to everyone's taste. For example, the Velez doesn't have much in the way of pockets, but their other jackets have more.

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I would be interested to hear from anyone with softshells on how the soft fabric stands up to skis' edges (when carrying them). My Gore Tex hard shell is pretty worn on my right shoulder. Cheers.

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I have an Eiger Gortex XCR (stretchy version) with lightweight inner.

Is by far the most comfortable jacket have ever worn and exceptionally light, even with the inner fleece bit.
Has notable advantage of being one of the very few jackets with a soft liner on the inside of the collar - is made from the same fleecy stuff as the inner. Thus collar is significantly more supple, soft and comfortble than those with stiffer necks. This was a prime consideration when buying the jacket, and is an area inexplicably often overlooked, given it's importance re. movement/visibilty and heat-loss.

Not cheap, but worth evey penny.

Also, look for ones with fully detachable hood - personal preference I know, but I find a rolled-up hood particuarly uncomfortable and thus restrictive. Likewise, they're not too easy to stow comfortably after use and wouldn't want a wet hood stuffed into a small space on an expensive jacket.

After all it is free

I've worn an Arcyterx Gore-tex XCR jacket now for 2 seasons of hard use and it's fantastic - costs a lot initially - but seems to last forever. However I did see a Scandy brand called Haglofs brochure - looks great kit and a bit more reasonable than some - sells at a superb ski touring shop in Aviemore - www.mountainspirit.biz

I wear a columbia Titanium omni-tech thing. Seems fine.
(soft collar and detachable hood too!)

Unless you are going to the arctic then buy according to your wallet and whatever features you want (snowskirt? pockets galore?). And then actually buy a Berghaus cos everyone in the know will think you're very serious. Of course there is probably a higher level of in the knowness...

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snowman,

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

I've been using NorthFace kit for years bought a hyvent jacket last year just an impulse buy really but its got a goggle pocket with a cloth for your goggles velcro'd in and the best bit by far i thought is a pouch sewn into the inside back of the jacket for a hydration system as for breathablity i couldnt complain and i do for want of a better word sweat alot when skiing can't seem to get used to bimbling around and end up skiing hard constantly if i need to i zip a windstopper fleece in but very rare as good as any goretex i've got if only it had pit zips

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bootneck,

Wow, five lines in one breath. Do you do a lot of texting by any chance? Smile

oops sorry yes i do but i'm watching tv at the same time. Not paying attention. snowHead

You know it makes sense.

bootneck,

What are the ski shops like in Liverpool? I was born & bred in Garston but left in '82 - I think there was only EB's then.

My son's just started Uni there so I'll probably be there more often than the usual annual trip to see my two sisters.

Thought I might do a bit of shopping when next there. Any recommendations?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Yeah still pretty much only EB bit crap really there are a few outdoor shops for clothing etc but for ski equip your stuck with EB or EB i mainly go to manchetser or the snow dome in castleford for ski gear. Your son will love uni here which one is he going to? Ok thats if he ever see's the uni nightlife is fantastic

A snowHead

bootneck,

Thank's for the info.

He's at John Moore's (it was the Poly in my day) taking Geography - or Human Geography to be precise, whatever the hell that is!

He's in halls at Atlantic Point so not far to go for the night life. It was his birthday in the middle of fresher week last week. Apparently he can't remember much about it - fresher week that is, not just his birthday.

A snowHead

I went to John Moores great rugby team if he plays football team is a bit insetuous all friends already etc but as i found nothing pulls the women like a rugby shirt and tie

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

http://www.adventuresportsonline.com/wbjackets.htm

http://outside.away.com/outside/gear/gearguy/200403/20040301.html

Lowe Alpine's eVENT® Fabrics are supposed to be more breathable than even Goretex XCR.
http://www.sportsgearguide.com/onepressrelease.asp?number=207

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spyderjon, Human Geography, the study of how human activities are affected (and affect) the physical world. E.g. settlement patterns, industry placement based on mining, infrastructure, etc.

Another material to consider is Ventile. It's cotton and very breathable. Cotton makes a poor baselayer as it holds sweat and moisture and next to the skin that can cool you too much when you're not active, etc. However as a shell, ventile works very well when it's not exceptionally wet. So though it doesn't cope with say a Lake District or Scottish downpour, it should cope with snow very well. Ventile was invented to make RAF flying suits in WW2 to provide some protection when they ditched in the sea (dual skin ventile works better against wet than single skin as the outer skin expands when it gets wet and forms a reasonable seal protecting the inner skin).

I have an excellent West Winds (who make ventile suits for the Antartic Survey) ventile wind-shirt (single skin) which copes with summer (spring & autumn) showers perfectly well. Worn over a fleece it'd probably make an excellent ski top and you could ditch the fleece in warmer weather. It doesn't need reproofing, is easy to wash and repairand less chance of static on very cold, very dry days. Worth a look, I'd say.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Mark Lehto, I too have Columbia Omni Tech - a Titanium jacket and very pleased with it. The pit vents and adjustable cuffs are great for letting some air in on hotter days. (It's my second - a washing machine with a stuck theromostat boiled the first and it went all crinkly and hard.) Is the soft collar on yours part of the fleece lining ? By juggling with zips, you might find you can take the lining out and wear / wash it separately. Watch out for the popper loops that hold the lining sleeves to the inner of the jacket cuffs. Took me ages to find out - Slush & Rubble didn't bother to explain that feature.

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skanky,

That's what my son said - sounds like a three year beer'n'babes scive to me!

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spyderjon, they're the best sort! Actually, it has more use than a lot of degrees these days.

After all it is free

DB, thanks for the links. In the meantime I found out that though LOwe Alpine had Event in their 2003 programme they have now ditched it and are using Gore tex XCR. However surfing around for info I see that Event is considered by many to be better than XCR (if you can find it). A great source of info and many additional links is this page:
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/clothing.html

This is where I always recommend Keela as I've been doing since the end of the first season I wore one (3 seasons ago). I don't think there's a better value breathable out there and I seriously want to know about it if there is.

Except, this time there's a new development: U can now buy them from snowHeads. (Just sorted out last week)

I normally go on about why it's brilliant but it's all in the shops now.

Keela's own site is a little dated http://www.keela.co.uk/ but might be usefull.

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admin, Seriously good price. What is the breathable material? - couldn't spot it when I looked at the site - could be the wine....

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Snowman,

Thanks ofr the link.

Yes I looked at Lowe Alpine's site and couldn't see Event only Gore tex XCR. Could be Betamax v VHS all over again with mass production beating outright performance. For skiing, breathability is probably more important than outright waterproofness (is that a word?) but everyone seems to be going Gore tex. Must admit my Arcteryx SV (Gore tex XCR) jacket has been bombproof, even hit a rock with my shoulder and drew blood but the jacket was fine.

One of the most important features of a jacket for me is underarm zip vents, especially on those spring days when the sun is out.

Maybe we would be better wearing a more breathable less water proof layer and keeping the Gore tex jacket in the backpack for those sleety snow days.

A lot of ski clothing is made from Schoeller fabric s(even Arcteryx are staring to use it in a big way) anybody used this and gore tex XCR who would like to comment on the pros/cons of each?

http://www.neice.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=000008

snow reports

They talk about principles of fabric technology here, their general fabric tech here, about their specific fabrics here.

The Munro uses:
FABRIC Innovation 5
LINING ADS Laminate
WEIGHT 920grms

DB, TRAIL (hill walking magazine) reported a couple of issues ago that Lowe had ditched eVent because as Gore is a wider known brand name it sells jackets better - even though eVent is technically better (supposedly!)

You know it makes sense.

admin, thanks.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

crispy, these things happen. I bought a betamax VCR Sad

A snowHead

You guys sweat when you're skiing? How uncool Wink

I too had a superb betamax machine, but you have to remember that the most popular car in Britain was the Ford Cortina. Today the likes of Tesco and Asda outsell Sainsbury's and Waitrose, whilst Currys and Dixons have claimed for years to be selling "HiFi" - where are the trades descriptions people when you need them?. No-one ever went broke underestimating the public's lack of regard for quality.

A snowHead

Anyways, how about this for a stylish ensemble? (belated edit - apologies but this link was no longer valid).

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Looks like something out of Scott of the Antarctic

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From Snowmans link I found this ....

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/breathability.pdf

In terms of breathability Entrant Gill XT Laminate, Event laminate, Schoeller Dryskin extreme and expanded PTFE membrane all do better than Gore tex XCR. (Schoeller make many fabrics so it's important to get the right one).

One of the biggest clothing mistakes (lets not get into fashion Wink

) I made was to use a windproof fleece under a shell. In general the more windproof and waterproof a garment is the less breathability it has so the fleece kept the moisture in and the shell couldn't perform.

http://climbing.com/equipment/softshells219/

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Both Rab and Craighoppers use eVent.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Montane use eVent, too.

After all it is free

I've used a soft shell as my main jacket for the last 2 seasons with a goretex or similar as a back up. I can recomend mountain hardwear expensive but fantastic lots of pockets highly breathable and really warm and i think most people would be suprised at just how waterproof they are.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

You'd be unlucky in the Alps to need Goretex for a prolonged period and in my experience can comfortably get away with less technical clothing.

However if you do a lot of skiing and want to use your jacket in the UK as well, or for other sports then I would agree with DG and go for some bomb proof goretex. Preferably from a British manufacturer like Berghaus, Karriemor, Sprayway or similar since they design for the really worst weather.

A 2 or 3 layer goretex jacket will last for ever, shouldn't flap too badly in a gale and is less likely to get cut or worn by carrying skis, wearing a rucsac or crashing over rocks !

If you think you'll need protection from driving snow, strong winds or heaven forbid rain or sleet, then a first class, controllable volume, fixed wired hood is essential. Wear what the climbers wear and I don't think you'll go wrong - as long as fashion isn't an issue !

Help!!

Which waterproof breathable?

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