 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hi guys, first post here, so will expect some stick.
I would consider myself a fairly competent skier, can get down anything pisted (bumps not great, but not too worried), but I seem to sit back way too much. This could be a pretty laid back/even lazy style that seems to have developed over the years.
Because of this (I guess) my thigh burn gets very intense very quickly.
My question is this - I there an easy 'ski thought' that I should have in my head to get my weight forward? When I do this, it certainly improves style etc, but I just seem to go back to old lazy way after just a few turns... 
Cheers in advance.
IMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
IMT, welcome to 
I'm not an instructor, but try getting your hands forward. If they are forward it will be easier for the rest of you to be forward.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
IMT, welcome to snowHeads. No reason you should get stick for that post as it's got to be the one of the biggest problems for us reacreational skiiers.
Try one thought and see what works best; such as keeping hands forward, keep feeling front of boot on shin, lift toes up. etc.
I'm sure others will have other tips too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
IMT, welcome to s. I used to be much worse about this than I am now.
What sorted it for me was getting a set of boots in which I felt comfortable to rest my shin against the front of the boot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the welcome guys, and the advice - keep 'em coming.
IMT 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Try skiing slightly slower. Many skiers (myself included) often find themselves in the back seat when skiing close to the ragged edge. Slowing it down slightly makes it easier to maintain posture.
Keeping your hands forward can help, but it can look a bit stupid if overdone  A good strong slightly forward reaching pole plant helps a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Get a video or photo of your typical stance and see if you can say yourself where you should be balance wise. Start off every run with this thought to keep putting yourself in a good position. Maybe a lesson will do this better.
Or start in a small plough position with knees/ankles flexed, shin on the cuff of the boot, try these turns as short as poss, close the plough and maintain those short turns. You can't do this very easily if your weight is back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lean forward. Relax. Push your knees forcibly over your toes. Place your hands out at 10 to 2'ish. Make a strong plant every time with your poles.
Your thighs could be burning for several reasons. Overweight, poor aerobic fitness, underdeveloped muscles, etc. etc. But don't worry too much. Most people's thighs burn after a minute of crouching down. Even downhill racers are hammered after 2 mins in the squat position.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
Try skiing slightly slower. Many skiers (myself included) often find themselves in the back seat when skiing close to the ragged edge. Slowing it down slightly makes it easier to maintain posture.
Keeping your hands forward can help, but it can look a bit stupid if overdone A good strong slightly forward reaching pole plant helps a lot.
|
Probably a good one (Actually all good) - I do tend to just hammer down the slopes (safely of course) but should really slow down and concentrate a bit more.
You're a good bunch.
IMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
IMT, I have just had a lesson on this (have been doing it for years) our instructor said the whole group was doing it. He made us do the following;
suck in your tummy & round your back
shins on the front of your boots
lean forward so you can't see the front binding past your knees
& this is a new one for me, drop your shoulders - this is supposed to be really important, relax your shoulders so they are loose & relaxed - (he made some of the class ski down looking like monkeys!)
stand next to a mirror at home & practise this & find the balance point - SZK explained this really well recently, will try to find the post.
good luck
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whitegold, there is only one reason for burning thighs when you ski - leaning back. You might only be 2 cms too far back but that's it. No other excuses unless peeps get burning thighs through standing and walking normally.
IMT, There are a series of balance exercises which will help your posture automatically, but you do have to practise them. I listed them on another thread, but if you can't find them on a search, let me know and I'll do it again - very under the weather today, so doing the min poss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
IMT, There are a series of balance exercises which will help your posture automatically, but you do have to practise them. I listed them on another thread, but if you can't find them on a search, let me know and I'll do it again - very under the weather today, so doing the min poss. [/quote]
easiski - Was this a recent post?
Ta
IMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
IMT, Quicker to run through I think:
using traverses the width of the slope: hop the whole ski, hop the heels only of the ski, hope the toes only of the ski, hop heels and toes alternately
ski on the downhill ski lifting up the uphill ski, do this and wiggle, waggle the uphil skis. do the same on the uphill ski.
Ski on the uphill ski and then roll onto the inside edge for the turn.
Obviously it may take you some time to master all the above, but to fix your position without haveing to think about it, you need to spend about half an hour a day doing these exercises. they do also make a good warm-up. If you're in a good position you can ski on one ski without any probs BTW, if not - you can't do it!! Obviously you should do at least a traverse to each side in each exercise. If you do these religiously your position and balance will improve on it's own.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
easiski,
Cheers, I think I get it - will give it a bash in a few weeks. Hope you feel better soon.
IMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
well this link has some drills to dial in early season balance http://www.modernskiracing.com/seasonstart.php for the season start.... and I know Rick has some dryland drills for teaching stance awareness.... if you ask nicely he may include some here.... (and you may have to wait a little while) ..... Gary from that site also posts here as backtomasters and may also have some links
There is a nice article on balance in the technique section as well....
easiski, can attest I have been plugging away at some of these and others from her... and seem to be making progress.... (at least i don't take a day to recover now )
Many of these drills and exercises are similar to the stuff I have been using for a while to learn some basic stance and balance.... and I can vouch that the persistence pays off....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
IMT, try wiring up an electric circuit to a 12 volt battery with a large amperage. The circuit will need to be closed when the shins are pressed onto the front of your boot, only delivering a hefty shock once the shins detach from the boot (and open the circuit).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
IMT, as a suggestion, borrow a pair of Snow Blades - I find on these that sitting back very quickly learns to falling back and helped me keep weight central.
Also good fun for the odd afternoon
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
chris,
LOL, that's the one!!
Boris,
Think i'd end up in heli rescue on those things...
little tiger,
Thanks for that, will check it out.
IMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
roll your shoulders forward so that they are rounded - think king kong
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
AxsMan, the hopping is with both skis simultaneously.
I can vouch for these exercises, they work really well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Kramer, Oh, er so is that 'hop' really a 'jump' (i.e. two legs not one?) Sorry if I'm being dim 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
AxsMan, ok, you're skiing along in a traverse, with both skis on the ground, then with your weight forward, you try and get the tails of both skis to hop momentarily off the ground, whilst keeping the tips on the ground, and maintaining your forward movement, and then repeat.
Next do the same thing, but lean back, and try to get the tips to come off the ground, whilst keeping the tails on, and repeat.
And so on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| easiski wrote: |
| Whitegold, there is only one reason for burning thighs when you ski - leaning back. You might only be 2 cms too far back but that's it. No other excuses unless peeps get burning thighs through standing and walking normally. |
Easiski -- Not sure I concur.
For sure, leaning backward burns more than leaning forward.
But leaning forward still burns, albeit at a relatively slower rate. The knees are bent and thigh muscles are being exercised. When any muscle is worked, it eventually builds up acid and burns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Kramer wrote: |
AxsMan, ok, you're skiing along in a traverse, with both skis on the ground, then with your weight forward, you try and get the tails of both skis to hop momentarily off the ground, whilst keeping the tips on the ground, and maintaining your forward movement, and then repeat.
Next do the same thing, but lean back, and try to get the tips to come off the ground, whilst keeping the tails on, and repeat.
And so on. |
AxsMan, then keep doing it right through the turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hi IMT, welcome to snowheads.
All the sensible advice above - especially shins in contact with fromt of boot, leaning forward as much as poss, hands forward etc.
The best advice I had tho, was to stop fighting the hill. Fear made me traverse too much so that every turn was exaggerated so I got very tired very quickly. Let gravity do the work and go withn the hill. AxsMan is spot on - you will ski faster and harder but with less strain on the thighs and knees. Relax and enjoy (easier sais than done!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
easiski, I can vouch for the last paragraph Once you get a good stance you can tell the instant the weight goes too far back as the balance, turning, and control reduces and the strain on the front of the thighs increases. I have skied for about 13 1/2 weeks with thigh burn, and 1/2 a week without it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I try to balance on the arch of my foot at exactly the centre point of the ski boot, shown by the mark on the boot sole used to mount the bindings. If you can acheive this the ski will then be working correctly. With regard to burning thighs, try doing top to bottom runs using rhythmical turns, when the burn starts, ajust your posture so the pain is reduced, keep ajusting till you find the most pain free position as you are skiing, do not stop, your posture will improve no end. it's a tough few runs but the end result is worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Using Skeleton rather than Muscular strength is the key to pain free endurance. Sure eventually lactic acid will get the better of anyone, so mostly I agree with Easiski that even minor adjustments in posture can make all the difference, to endurance. I would'nt go as far as Her in saying that fat, old & unfit people will not get thigh burn if their posture is good, but it will delay the onslaught.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Whitegold, I have yet to meet the holiday skier who, when standing correctly all the time, continues skiing until lactic acid burns in the muscles. Racers are an entirely different matter.
Spyderman, that is too far back in my opinion. You should be on the ball of your foot, and shift onto the toes. The cente boot/ski mark does not appear to mean that that's where the ski works best - we've only just begun to understand this - the carving ski definitely responds to pressure around the toe binding for max efficiency. Also, for the human being to generate forward motion we do it from the front of the foot - in skiing we are constantly generating forward motion, and if we want to stay in charge of this movement we need to be "with it". I've consulted world renowned biomechanists and physiologists about this (perk of working at Uni of Bath), and they are all in agreement. You stand on the arch and heel when stationary - skiing is dynamic.
BASI say arch, I think they're wrong, and I'd rather believe the profs than them. French, and Italians are certainly "sur l'avant du pied", not sure about the Austrians, pretty certain that the Swiss are.
If your centre of mass is over the ball of your feet, your skeleton is properly stacked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
i have been told 60%toe 40% heel is a good bias(for feel of pressure along the foot)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
Spyderman, that is too far back in my opinion. You should be on the ball of your foot, and shift onto the toes. The cente boot/ski mark does not appear to mean that that's where the ski works best - we've only just begun to understand this - the carving ski definitely responds to pressure around the toe binding for max efficiency. Also, for the human being to generate forward motion we do it from the front of the foot - in skiing we are constantly generating forward motion, and if we want to stay in charge of this movement we need to be "with it". I've consulted world renowned biomechanists and physiologists about this (perk of working at Uni of Bath), and they are all in agreement. You stand on the arch and heel when stationary - skiing is dynamic.
BASI say arch, I think they're wrong, and I'd rather believe the profs than them. French, and Italians are certainly "sur l'avant du pied", not sure about the Austrians, pretty certain that the Swiss are.
If your centre of mass is over the ball of your feet, your skeleton is properly stacked. |
[/quote]
If you balance over the centre point of the boot, that point is aligned with the mark on the ski which corresponds to the centre of the arc of the ski's sidecut, i.e. the ski's sweetspot. If you load the front of the ski, sure the ski will initiate the turn a bit harder, but overall grip of the edge will be compromised and the tail will break away creating a skidded rather than carved turn. By applying pressure onto our toes it may give the feeling that the ski is working well but it is a false impression. Just in the same way as skiing balanced on the Heels will not allow the front of the ski to grip.
Applying pressure to the ski through the centre of the boot, will apply force equally through the ski allowing the whole edge to be used and the ski to do what the Manufacturer's have designed, with regard to flex patterns, sidecut and torsional stiffness.
When the Human generates forward motion, as in walking or running I agree it is generated from the front of the foot by using our Muscles and joints, but in skiing our Feet are fixed in ski boots therefore the same mechanics as described cannot be used. The forward motion that is created in skiing is generated by good old Sir Isaac Newton i.e. Gravity. The hard bit is the dynamic balance in order to stay balanced on that 1mm wide point under your foot whilst moving.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| ..the mark on the ski which corresponds to the centre of the arc of the ski's sidecut, i.e. the ski's sweetspot. |
I agree with the majority of your post, but it does appear that ski manufacturers don't usually put that mark in the correct place. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The mark on the ski is NOT the centre of the arc of the ski's sidecut. It's behind the centre point by around 5-8cm.
If you look at a pair of freeride skis, you will see they are marked with a mid-sole mark, and then forward of that is the core centre (which may not be the centre of the arc, but the centre of the flex), and then you will also have the ski running length centre, which could be somewhere else again.
Try out a campbell dynamic balance and see where your balance point is on skis, compared to the mid sole mark. That is different for each person, and changes as well with different boots.
[epic mode]
On top of that, you may need to include the ramp angle of the bindings and the delta of your footbed.
[/epic mode]
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Oh, Blimey, done it now. I realise that manufacturer's measure their skis in different ways, some by giving the length as measured along the base, some by how long they are between tip and tail. the sidecut arc does not start at the tip nor end at the tail but the manufacturer's put the mark on the Ski to align with the mark on the boot for the purpose of mounting bindings, so that when force is applied to the ski at that point the sidecut, flex pattern & torsional flex is being used to it's optimum efficiency. So in effect it is whether actually by being exactly in measurement terms of the sidecut or in design terms taking into account the flex pattern, the centre of the Arc.
I am with you that things like footbeds and plates etc. can alter this position, which is why some skiers may choose to mount the bindings slightly fore or aft of the mark on the ski, but this should only be to achieve the balance point over the mark on the ski. of course personal preference comes into it as to how someone likes a ski to respond under foot but it is not in the makers design.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| the manufacturer's put the mark on the Ski to align with the mark on the boot for the purpose of mounting bindings, so that when force is applied to the ski at that point the sidecut, flex pattern & torsional flex is being used to it's optimum efficiency. |
No they don't!
It's not about applying a force "AT THAT POINT". It's about having a standard place to mount the binding on the ski based on the centre of the boot, not the centre of force or centre of arc or anything else.
Go back a few years to the old K2 skis that had a mounting mark for the front of the boot. That wasn't because they thought the front of the boot was where it was happening, but because they decided that it might have been a better place to mark the ski from.
If you want to take a different look at it, consider what part of your foot lines up with the mid point of the boot sole. You'll probably find it's about 3-4cm behind the ball of your foot.
Now, stand bare foot, and tell me how much of your weight is acting through there - the answer is very little - you're at the arch of your foot - there's a gap!
Take a look a bit further forward from there, and you'll hit the ball of your foot. That's where the pressure is when you are in a skiing position - try it - lean forward so there is very little weight on your heels. Where is the weight pushing down? Is it over the mid sole mark? um, no.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
