 Poster: A snowHead
|
rob@rar, the club pro analogy was my point, being taught by someone who has reached a high standard (not necessarily world class). I think you are bang on with the Eurotest being a similar qualification.Roy Hockley, I wouldnt say that a teaching pro taught because he/she didnt make it on the pro tour. Only a few hundred golfers world wide make a real living, similar numbers i suspect to skiers.
I got taught last week by a 6 time scottish national team member with 50 FIS points who gave up racing and now wants to teach and enjoy a mountain lifestyle. What he was able to do very well was demonstrate correct technique in varying conditions. A poorer skier that talks a good game maybe would have struggled to demonstrate correct technique.
easiski, I have agreed with all your posts except the last one in that in the US teachers are "greedy" my understanding of instructor wages in the usa and canada is that they are on very nominal wages and rely on tips from customers. Working for tips is not a bad idea in a very service oriented profession in my book, good service and satisfied customers equate to reasonable income.[/u]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| rjs wrote: |
rob@rar, Georgie is currently on 88 points in GS, you can look at the times for the two races that average out to this value on the FIS website. He was about 6s per run slower than the winner on a 60s course, WC level would be a couple of seconds faster still.
Anyone who has had points below 100 is exempt from needing to take the Eurotest anyway |
Thanks for the info. Hope he has a good season - was certainly impressive when I saw him ski in Tignes. It's always a joy to watch a really good skier  I think tis illustrates my point that although the Eurotest is a very stiff test of a skier's technical ability, you don't need to be a top flight racer to pass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| easiski wrote: |
| laundryman, There are more would be ski instructors every year than jobs, not all ski teachers can get jobs, so I don't see a problem with numbers. |
I'm not sure why you seek "protection" then.
| Quote: |
| Why do you keep talking and France please be accurate and say eurogroup or europe - or are you just majorly anti-french? |
Because you've confirmed that there are legal requirements there, which AFAIA don't apply in other nations such as GB (but maybe I'm wrong).
| Quote: |
| If unqualifieds were allowed to teach it would be back to the bad old days when no-one could actually make a proper living or career out of it. |
Is that how it is in North America?
| Quote: |
| then, in this day and age, the clients would undoubtedly sue the school/teacher if there was an accident. |
OK, that's how it is in North America. 
| Quote: |
there would be even more dangerous skiers out there and even more accidents. there are enough hazzards on the slopes already without going back to the 1920's but with 2007 skiing numbers, pistes and modern skis.  |
Again, a comparison with North America would be instructive: are their trails notably less safe than your pistes?
| Quote: |
| I really think it's quite offensive that you clearly think prices of around £30 - £40 per hour for private instruction is too much |
It's not what I think that should count, but society collectively, voting with their wallets.
| Quote: |
| - when did you last see a garage that charged less than £30 per hour? |
I don't know, but the same applies to them.
| Quote: |
| Why should we be not allowed to earn a decent living, because that's what you constantly imply. |
It's what you infer. I'm happy for you to earn as much as people are willing to pay you, without limit.
| Quote: |
| We charge too much (according to you) because we indulge ourselves by taking too many exams in order to actually have the career of our choice? |
I'm happy for you to charge whatever you like and take as many exams as you like, and other people too.
| Quote: |
| Or are you just jealous? |
No.
| Quote: |
| the USA will always be more expenisve because they are greedy and money orientated, |
You wouldn't be "majorly anti-American" would you?
| Quote: |
| and yes - if all instructors there were level IV trainers, no doubt they'd put the prices up, but it's just not the case in europe, and I don't see why you think it is. |
Well, you imply that less qualified people would charge less and threaten your income.
| Quote: |
| You are legally allowed to hire someone who isn't qualified to teach you - take him/her on holiday with you and go for it - so long as you don't pay them for "teaching". |
I don't think that's "hiring" in the strictest sense. It is tempting though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
CEM, I am saying that everyone is worth what society judges them to be worth: by the concrete acts of opening wallets; not by abstract debate comparing apples with pears.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| laundryman wrote: |
| CEM, I am saying that everyone is worth what society judges them to be worth: by the concrete acts of opening wallets; not by abstract debate comparing apples with pears. |
society obviously judges that garages are worth £40-£50 per hour then if they didn't there would be people setting up and charging half that amount
just get over yourself
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CEM, can you show me where I suggested otherwise?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
you have frequently in this thread and others whined about the price of this and the price of that,
what i was trying to show was that for a ski instructor to earn £20.000 [not a great salary] they have to charge what they do, they don't have the privilage of 40hrs per week 52weeks of the year
what i don't have right now is the time to trawl through 8 pages
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
CEM, Yeah - and I'm getting really bored with this. society obviously judges us worth our money since we're happily employed. The USA is a society founded on money and greed - I never said american ski teachers were greedy - it's the way their society works. Laundryman clearly doesn't want professional ski teachers in the world since he disagrees with society as to what we're worth. However, since everyone else seems quite happy with the standard of qualifications, and prices of ski lessons, it would seem that this person is alone in his views. In his society doctors wouldn't have to do 6 years of medical school, vets 7 years at vet school, no-one would have to have A levels or degrees, anyone could set up as anything they liked and that would be fine, because there would be no government interference. Personally I prefer my soliocitor to have had some training and ditto my doctor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| CEM wrote: |
| you have frequently in this thread and others whined about the price of this and the price of that |
No I haven't: I have "whined" about governments interfering with business between consenting adults.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| easiski wrote: |
| society obviously judges us worth our money since we're happily employed. |
And society might judge others, "wannabes" (to use your term), to be worth something as well (maybe not as much as you) but you would rather they derived no income. I suspect there are some of them who are unhappily unemployed.
| Quote: |
| The USA is a society founded on money and greed - I never said american ski teachers were greedy - it's the way their society works. |
Well you did say they'd put their prices up if they could.
| Quote: |
| Laundryman clearly doesn't want professional ski teachers in the world since he disagrees with society as to what we're worth. However, since everyone else seems quite happy with the standard of qualifications, and prices of ski lessons, it would seem that this person is alone in his views. In his society doctors wouldn't have to do 6 years of medical school, vets 7 years at vet school, no-one would have to have A levels or degrees, anyone could set up as anything they liked and that would be fine, because there would be no government interference. Personally I prefer my soliocitor to have had some training and ditto my doctor. |
Your ability to misrepresent my views is breathtaking. You're clearly as good at windmill-tilting as skiing.
By the way, you can pay anyone you like to give you medical advice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Isn't laundryman's argument about whether professional "badges" like being a full cert ski instructor, or a qualified lawyer, mountain guide etc etc should have the force of law (ie it's illegal to operate in one of these professions without the badge) or whether it's just a badge which is a mark of quality but you're free to choose whether you'll go with someone qualified or not?
While the latter seems attractive in some sort of free market utopia, you just know that within 5 minutes of the first accident involving an unqualified ski instructor, there would be consumer groups etc etc arguing that "something must be done" about dangerous unqualified people teaching our kids. And the people who really lose out in such a situation are newbies who probably aren't going to be aware of the existence fo qualifications and what they mean. I think this alone makes the argument for regulation is quite compelling.
As to whether liberalising ski instruction would make any difference to pricing, I think CEM and easiski have made the point that ski instructors aren't exactly getting rich at the moment. I'm not sure that people really can charge much less than the current rates and make any sort of a living.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arno, exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| CEM wrote: |
you have frequently in this thread and others whined about the price of this and the price of that,
what i was trying to show was that for a ski instructor to earn £20.000 [not a great salary] they have to charge what they do, they don't have the privilage of 40hrs per week 52weeks of the year
what i don't have right now is the time to trawl through 8 pages |
Not whining about the price - I think the top instructors are worth every penny (and yes I know even the top ones don't actually get paid that much, especially once the ski school has taken their cut, and it's been a tough road to get there).
However I am slightly confused about your example/calculations...
20K for 5 months is a pretty good rate (though I suspect that amount would be very hard to acheive). I reckon I don't make that much more in 5 months as a higher-end of the scale full-time chartered engineer, and I work far more than 40 hours per week.
Most of the instructors I know who don't head to the southern hemisphere do something else over the summer; irrigation, farming, construction, bike park work, landscape gardening, etc...
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 22-12-06 11:35; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Arno wrote: |
| As to whether liberalising ski instruction would make any difference to pricing, I think CEM and easiski have made the point that ski instructors aren't exactly getting rich at the moment. I'm not sure that people really can charge much less than the current rates and make any sort of a living. |
A fair case in point: as a qualified Driving Instructor, I gave up the profession to do what I am currently doing. A fully qualified Instructor shows a green badge on the front of their car. To become fully qualified you have to pass three exams. You only have to pass the two first exams to gain a trainee licence and teach students (showing a pink badge). Trainee instructors are currently attempting to gain their teaching qualification. (They have already passed the theory and driving exams.) They can charge what they like. If they don't pass their third exam then they're out and they go off and do something else. Why did I leave? Well - one of many reasons was that there were too many 'trainees' charging £9.99 per hour making earning a living impossible for the rest of us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Presumably the 'trainees' were happy, and their customers, and also and the people with whom the customers spent the cash they saved on driving lessons. And meanwhile you were able to deploy other talents to make a better living elsewhere. It is a very good example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Arno wrote: |
| you just know that within 5 minutes of the first accident involving an unqualified ski instructor, there would be consumer groups etc etc arguing that "something must be done" about dangerous unqualified people teaching our kids. |
They wind me up something rotten, when they stray beyond providing information.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
In our business we charge more than the opposition, because we are better. In order to be better our costs are higher.
If an instructor or school charges too much money then they will price themselves out of the market. If they are very good they should be able to charge more than the opposition. Simple market forces.
Instructors are limited (in general) to 4-5 months per year. Pension plans, private health plans, company jaunts, company cars, paid holidays.......I suspect not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
laundryman, in theory you're right, of course. BUT - often the students weren't getting the best instruction, therefore had to spend £xxx and often £xxxx more on lessons than they should have in the first place. When all of the good, qualified Instructors have
| Quote: |
| deploy other talents to make a better living elsewhere |
left the profession... and your son or daughter, niece or nephew is attempting to learn to drive and is having difficulty finding someone that can actually analyse their faults - remember (as you said) the instructor is happy just taking their money for months and months whilst they drive around and around in circles and spend £48.50 per attempt at the driving test.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Frosty the Snowman, again, you're correct - but do I presume that your business has a lot of repeat business? If that is the case, then your points are understandable.
In my case, once the students had passed their test, then you don't see them again - and most just want to get through it 'as quickly and as cheaply as possible' therefore market forces work in the negative.
Most skiers aren't snowHeads, (I know - it's difficult to believe  ) and a lot of punters look at skiing lessons in the same way, I'd expect, being that they only want to get down the mountain and go home and say that they've 'done a black'. Being snowHeads, of course we know differently, expect more and are willing to pay easiski what she deserves.
But all too often market forces have the opposite effect for the unknowing public.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Michelle, I was reffering top ski instructors. I would certainly not be wanting to use the services of attractive driving instructors. Far too distracting
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, Exactly my point to the whole discussion. You probably dont have ever to have raced to be a good instructor. The Eurotest does not prove anything other than one has the b#lls to go fast down a mountain. Successfully passing the speed test does not make my ski instructor a good TEACHER.
Having a decent style and technique together with the more important asset of being able to get his/her point accross is more important. Can anyone try and tell me that easiski, would not be able to teach me better than most members of the ESF in my local resort. I think I would learn much more from the native speaker than a "better" skier. I say better skier because, that is what those in this forum would suggest Eurotest is better than a non Eurotest instructor. BS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Michelle wrote: |
laundryman, in theory you're right, of course. BUT - often the students weren't getting the best instruction, therefore had to spend £xxx and often £xxxx more on lessons than they should have in the first place. When all of the good, qualified Instructors have
| Quote: |
| deploy other talents to make a better living elsewhere |
left the profession... and your son or daughter, niece or nephew is attempting to learn to drive and is having difficulty finding someone that can actually analyse their faults - remember (as you said) the instructor is happy just taking their money for months and months whilst they drive around and around in circles and spend £48.50 per attempt at the driving test. |
I'm sure that must happen, from time to time. On that basis, I presume you would not trust yourself to hire a ski instructor in North America, where the standard of the top level of instructor qualification is probably not so high as in Europe.
BTW referrals do happen in driver instruction. We were very happy for our younger daughter to use the same guy who got her big sister through the test. I'm afraid I've no idea what level he is at, but I do know that it is a part time occupation for him. At any rate, he was already known to us in another capacity, and we were happy to put the business his way, because we know him to be trustworthy and diligent and to 'go the extra mile' (no pun intended).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| laundryman wrote: |
On that basis, I presume you would not trust yourself to hire a ski instructor in North America, where the standard of the top level of instructor qualification is probably not so high as in Europe.
|
You are joking, aren't you?
Try getting a CSIA IV
On the grading thing, the best "general purpose" ski instructor I know is a CSIA III. She's probably not the fastest or technically perfect instructor out there, but for teaching low intermediates to advanced (probably covers most people on holiday), she's the best _teacher_
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stuarth, yes. I should have used 'perhaps' rather than 'probably'. It does seem to be a prevalent view on this side of the pond though, which is why I raised the question.
Sorry for that. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
stuarth, Your point does not suprise me in the least. I do not know what CSAI111 is but as you say she is a fantastic teacher. Possibly because she is enthused with her job and has the ability to convey her instructions in a coherent fashion. As opposed to the "Bend ze nees" approach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Roy Hockley,
CSIA III is second to top Canadian level(goes the oppposite way to BASI confusingly). They also have CSCF which is more a race coaching qualification.
As you say her key skill is the abilty to convey what she means in such an uncomplicated way that it is easy to understand what she means without having to necessarily resort to being over-technical. Also makes it all incredibly good fun.
Truly a great instructor, worth every penny (and the only instructor I've ever paid the huge Whistler private tuition rates to ski with).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| skimottaret, Exactly my point to the whole discussion. You probably dont have ever to have raced to be a good instructor. The Eurotest does not prove anything other than one has the b#lls to go fast down a mountain. Successfully passing the speed test does not make my ski instructor a good TEACHER. |
Passing the Eurotest proves that you have technical skills to a high level. There are other aspects of the BASI 1 qualification which examine your teaching abilities. In my opinion subject knowledge and pedagogic skills are equally important for a teacher, in skiing as in any other form of teaching. The Eurotest is one way of objectively testing "subject knoweldge".
Anyone can go fast down a mountain if their are stupid enough. All you have to do is point your skis down the hill. Skiing gates to a high level is completely different, and has nothing to do with going fast. It's about technique and control. I ski much faster when I'm free skiing than I do when I ski gates, although when skiing a tough set of gates I feel much more "on the edge" than I do just piste skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
rob@rar, they don't believe us! 
I'm getting tired of this. What is Laundryman's profession? I should like to know if he had to have qualifications to pursue it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
rob@rar, I agree with the gist of your point. I also accept that the skiing bodies have the right to administer the test in the way they see fit. Their opinion is as valid as mine. Accept it from a non ski teacher, I dont have an axe to grind as I would personally never be good enough to teach skiing. I just think that more emphasis on the course should be in the language of the students you are teaching.
Any and all instructors have surely got the ability to ski! What they, in many cases do not posses is the ability to put their point accross.
On another and less heated note, Happy Christmas to all and hope you have some white frozen water wherever you are!!! I am off to Norway tomorrow, and it looks like I am going to have a green xmas. I wont be taken xcountry skiing, aah well never mind maybe next year!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
easiski, I agree with everything in rob@rar's last post - 100%.
The company of which I am a founder and managing director (and a practitioner) is a specialist IT consultancy. I employ mainly graduates (usually 2:1 or above, not necessarily in computer science or electronics) from leading universities, with a good proportion of masters and doctorates. I also look back at A-level results and expect to see high grades. All of that is usually a prerequisite, though not an iron law. For people a few years on from university, their achievements at work count for more. Because we work very closely with our clients, good communications skills (written and verbal) are important, as well as commercial skills. Because we are generally involved in creating new business services by exploiting new technology, creativity and an ability to understand new kit before the manuals and textbooks have been written are also prized. None of the last few things are easily predictable from exam results, and sometimes people with a lesser academic record can excel in those areas, so we never close doors. Anyway, people with lesser qualifications can usually find work somewhere within the IT sector and there is a great deal of fluidity. No-one's career plans are permanently stymied by getting a 2:2.
As for our clients (generally large corporations, across the globe), they're much more interested in the company's and its staff's achievements in the last 2-3 years than anyone's academic record. I'd rather it that way. It keeps us on our toes. A lot of our business is long term, and the new business is generally from referrals.
Of course we sometimes lose business to people quoting lower prices. In our imagination, if not always in reality, they're always less well qualified! Such is life.
Finally, there are no legal restrictions pertaining to the qualifications of people who may practise in this field.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
laundryman, "Finally, there are no legal restrictions pertaining to the qualifications of people who may practise in this field." but it would be difficult to put someone's life in danger in the IT world, unless you wired the computer back to front - but they have breakers for that don't they? there you are though - you do expect some sort of qualifications in your staff, and I bet you earn at least twice as much as me. I have more work than I can usually deal with, and I don't think that would change, but unqualified ski teachers are a liability to everyone. I gather they do use them in the States - well, shame on them!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
easiski, it certainly is possible to endanger people's lives with IT (think fly-by-wire on planes for example). Though that's not the sort of work we do, I'm pretty sure there's no legislation relating to people's qualification to do it. However, networks that we have designed are responsible for carrying trillions of pounds of transactions per day (a lot of it representing ordinary people's money), so it's not exactly without a potential impact on people's well-being.
I expect some sort of qualifications for ski instructors as well: it's just the matter of the law getting involved explicitly that I'm quibbling with!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| Any and all instructors have surely got the ability to ski! What they, in many cases do not posses is the ability to put their point accross. |
I wish that were true, but what I see around the mountain doesn't always give me confidence that all instructors are teaching good technique. Some of the lessons I've had over the years have simply reinforced my bad habits, which I've tried hard to knock out of my skiing.
Merry Christmas to you also, where I am now we have just about enough of the frozen white stuff to be going on with (although if Santa wants to bring a little bit more...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| laundryman wrote: |
| The company of which I am a founder and managing director (and a practitioner) is a specialist IT consultancy. |
And there was me thinking you ran a drycleaners
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As, for the most part, a bit of a fence-sitter in all of this, I'm interested that no-one's yet bothered to argue against the remarks/queries about why so many people recommed N America for beginners, especially when the instructors are of such inferior quality... And also why their slopes are arguably safer, despite this 'poor' intorduction to skiing (okay, I'll partially answer that myself - because they are quieter, but... I've been on equally as quiet slopes in parts of Europe where it has been far more hairy!).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
easiski, a quick apology, i had said that you thought american instructors were greedy, but you quite rightly corrected me and had actually said the ski companies that employ them are... soz.... a big difference and one i agree with!
Is it a fact that in the states and Canada Instructors work for very low wages and get most of their income from tips?
On a general note it sounds to me from this thread a lot of people are arguing that an entry level qualified teacher will somehow be a better communicator/teacher for beginner/intermediates than a fully qualified ISTD that has passed a Speed test. All ISTD's were grade 3's at some point but had the dedication to get a higher qualification. Given there is no shortage of instructors in France/Italy why reduce the entry level qualification?
laundryman, Interesting that you "hire 2:1's masters degrees and phd's from leading universities." I am surprised you place such emphasis on qualifications for your staff when you feel so strongly that they mean so little when it comes to teaching skiing...
Roy Hockley, I dont think you know what the Speed test is... not having a go, but it isnt a straight line down the mountain, it is a timed GS race through gates. I understand that the GS is considered by most racers to be the "purest" test of overall technique.. Being able to run gates well demonstrates a good level of skiing ability, not just b"lls.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
's