 Poster: A snowHead
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| FenlandSkier wrote: |
| I'd consider driving instructors to be a fair comparison to ski instructors, would you expect your driving instructor to have to lap Silverstone within a set time? |
I don't know how closely related racing around Silverstone is to effective driving around the streets, although I guess it's not that close. On the other hand, I think skiing GS is a very good test of a skier's ability to ski effectively on piste, so in that case I think the Eurotest is a good way objectively to test a skiers technical ability. It's not the only examination I'd like to see anyone teaching me to be able to pass, but for me it's important.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| But surely you have to draw the line somewhere? |
I don't have to draw any lines anywhere. Trade bodies can draw straight lines, wavy lines, any type of line, anywhere they like...
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| Should pharmacists be allowed to practice if they narrowly fail an exam or two? Should engineers reach chartered status even though they don't quite reach the required standard? |
We're not talking about handing out dangerous drugs or building the Millau viaduct. There are many reasons for a government to regulate trades, e.g. where there are significant third party liabilities (e.g. gas fitters), where there are conventions to be followed for the maintenance of safety (e.g. commercial pilots), or where a service is so generally used as for it to be economic for society to take on the burden at the national level (e.g. pharmacists). I simply do not see that coaching recreational participants in a minority sport fits into any such category.
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| There are other opportunities to teach skiing without the Eurotest, but they are limited and perhaps less lucrative, so all is not lost for those who don't reach that standard. |
I believe that such opportunities are artificially restricted by law in France, for example.
If the practice of all trades were restricted by law, with qualification set at a very high level (all in the interest of standards, of course), then you would have many people with no right to work at all: despite having the capability to contribute something to society. I cannot see that that would be a desirable state of affairs.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 17-12-06 16:57; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| but for me it's important. |
That's hunky dory. The key words are "for me"; yet you seem to want to impose your own criteria, by law, on everyone else.
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FenlandSkier, I've done part of my driving instructor's exams and it's nothing like ski teaching. You have dual pedals to start with!!!  also it's much shorter, there's only one level, and the danger is from other road users. Sorry - no fair comparison.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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laundryman, Have you actually bothered to look at the BASI link I put up? I think not. You can go to Scotland and get taught by a Grade III - that's your right. You can also find Grade 2s in ski schools all over France, Austria, Italy and other european countries, and maybe even a few Grade 3s. You are welcome to go off with them. that is absolutely your choice - go to the states and be taken off piste by someone who hasn't been obliged to take the off piste part (I note you haven't replied to that point).
I'm astonished at your continued (apparent) assertion that there's no risk involved - I'm afraid it just shows your ignorance. I bet if a ski teacher took you somewhere and you were hurt, and you thought it was their fault, you'd soon sue - and if there wasn't obligatory civil liability insurance? "Oh sorry, your instructor wasn't fully qualified - no claim for you"
why are you constantly talking about France? Austria and Italy and GB have the same rules. the Germans and the Spanish are desparate to join in, so are most other countries - why do you insist on putting Brits down by suggesting that we should not aspire to the same high standards? You are free to hire a ski bum to teach your family - why don't you just do that. It's not an either/or situation - it's part of the professional qualifications needed to practise our trade - END OF STORY. Perhaps you'd like a barrister who's just really an articled clerk? Or an accountant who couldn't quite pass his/her exams. Sorry, but your argument is ridiculous - it's not as if It's a one time thing either - Brits actually get 2 more goes at it that continentals! If you can't pass in 3 years, you're not good enough, or you didn't train hard enough, or you don't have the talent. 
this is the old attitude of "all ski teachers are just ski bums who don't want to get proper jobs" - I thought we'd moved past it - shame we haven't.
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easiski, you have missed the only point I've sought to make - that I can't see why a government should bother to regulate (that is, restrict) ski instruction. I believe that is the case in France - which I'll talk about if I wish.
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| "all ski teachers are just ski bums who don't want to get proper jobs" |
Please don't put words in my mouth, expressing views I do not hold.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| but for me it's important. |
That's hunky dory. The key words are "for me"; yet you seem to want to impose your own criteria, by law, on everyone else. |
Not my criteria, and not imposed by me. The criteria are developed and agreed by international ski associations, and their day to day implementation is operated by ski schools, backed up by employment legislation (although that's a somewhat murky area which has often crossed the line into protectionism). However, as a punter I agree with the rules as they give me some reassurance that the instructors I engage have been able to demonstrate a certain level of technical competence - not stratospherically high, but enough to reassure me that when I'm being told how to ski quickly on piste that their know what they're talking about. It's not a controversial point as far as I'm concerned, but clearly other people think differently.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| backed up by employment legislation (although that's a somewhat murky area which has often crossed the line into protectionism). |
That's the bit I object to.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| backed up by employment legislation (although that's a somewhat murky area which has often crossed the line into protectionism). |
That's the bit I object to. |
Me too, but things are much better than they were 10 years ago. It seems to much closer to a level playing field as far as the different nationalities are concerned.
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Imho the primary reason for the Eurotest is as a form of trade protection. I think that so many good skiers would wish to teach in France (higher wages from trade protection and high demand, lots of good skiers in the population in absolute numbers) that this systematic exclusion has long been deemed necessary. I have met lots of ISIAs now, all of whom seem easily of a level sufficient to teach advanced skiers, and I don't believe there is a particularly good reason why they shouldn't be recognised as such in France (or Italy, though I understand rules there are not terribly consistently applied  ), as well as in Austria, Switzerland, Scandinavia, Japan, US, Canada, Oz/NZ. Even more advanced skiers can be taught/race-trained by even more highly qualified instructors/coaches. Of course there's no doubting the skill level necessary to pass the Eurotest, but I don't think achieving such a high standard helps them teach the vast majority of their students, whether British or native. I do think that having an objective speed test is a good idea but not one with a bar so high that by reputation anyone over 30yr.s old would have difficulty achieving it. Maybe 40-50yr.s old but 30 is way too restrictive - unless being restrictive is the whole point of it. 
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 17-12-06 19:22; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, I think that's right. I use 'protectionism' in a more general sense than the cross-border one though - as in the economic issues I mentioned above. However, I'll call it a draw if you will - I doubt there are many more substantive arguments to be deployed on either side on that question.
Edit: I see slikedges has entered the fray!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, It's already been mentioned. The French government say you have to be properly qualified to teach skiing (and most other things). ENSA and BASI and the their Austrian and Italian counterparts decide what's in the exams. the decision about the eurotest is nothing to do with the government. By implication, saying ski techers should not aspire to/have to pass a really high level of qualifications is denigrating the profession.
slikedges, How high the bar is is a whole other discussion, but it's where it is, and it's not so high that it's not achieveable. (I do know 2 people who've passed it in their 40's - it's not the racing that's a problem, but the training) Most people decide on their careers and get their qualifications when they're young. I don't see why skiing should be any different. Some countries you've mentioned do have equivalence (NZ 2, Swiss National, CSIA IV). Austria, of course is part of the eurogroup. Now they will employ less well qualified instructors, but at a much lesser wage. BTW the wages in France are no longer higher than, say the States (especially when you consider tips). You can work in the States even without ISIA, never mind ISTD.
It's nothing to do with the level you teach, though, it's the level you have to achieve to get your exams. I fail to see why it's OK (eg) for a future maths teacher to get a 2:1 by only one mark off a First, but not OK for a ski teacher to fail part of their exam by a small margin (which seems to be part of laundryman,'s argument)
Of course it's to do with protectionism - we want to protect ourselves from all the partly qualified wanna-be's. Personally I hated having to constantly apologise for the standard of some of our Grade IIIs and even Grade IIs 15 years ago - it was embarassing. At least now I can point to my fellow Brits and say" wow - look how well he/she can ski". I have a friend who never managed to pass all 3 of his chartered accountancy exams at the same time - he's a certified now, that's harsh (since he passed each exam at some time), but that's the rule. No difference.
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easiski, you're viewpoint is understandably the establishment and maintenance of a high professional standard as embodied by the Euro Group, and I guess mine is that while I agree that higher levels of certification like ISTD are a good thing, the level expected by the ISIA should be sufficient to be allowed to teach, unless the motive is to restrict the numbers gaining entry to the profession. Imho for most participants skiing does not require such a stringent safeguard as the ISTD, as it does not generally require participants or society at large to so wholly give over ownership for their physical/social/financial wellbeing, as might be necessary in other fields where such safeguards remain in place.
Otherwise I agree with much of what you say, and you're certainly right that some instructors I've met who got Grade III before the revolution are a little embarassing!
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Of course it's to do with protectionism |
Thought so.
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| we want to protect ourselves from all the partly qualified wanna-be's. |
= people who may be able to provide a perfectly satisfactory service to customers at a price they're happy to pay.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, I dont think you understood my point.
I would prefer to have a native speaker to advise me on anything. He/She would probably have a better chance to explain what I am doing wrong and correct it. A good GS racer may very well get down the slope very quickly and that would impress me , but I want the instructor to instruct, not say "follow me".
I may have misread an earlier thread but I would prefer to have you as an instructor than someone who has difficulty with the language but has passed a race test.
I have not got a problem with any national bodies regulating themselves, not at all. However it would be just as important or in fact more important for these bodies to spend more time on their instructors to speak the languages of their clients better, not just English, but Spanish, Italian, German, French, Arabic, Russian whatever the customers require. So if I want to be taught in English easiski, you would be better for me than Herman Maier.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Roy Hockley, but easiski and teachers like her have passed the speed test too, so you get the best of both worlds! It seems that there are plenty of people daft enough to want to put in all the work and effort and training required to teach skiing at the high levels demanded, for not much money. Lucky for the rest of us. However, there are a lot more people - many of them native English speakers - who would just like to bum around getting free skiing in return for a much more modest amount of effort. I'm glad there are strict criteria to sort the wheat from the chaff. As there seem to be plenty of highly qualified instructors around, who have both the technical and teaching skills required, there is clearly not a supply problem, so I don't see the argument for lowering the threshold. It's good to have a choice, and to understand what the different levels of qualification mean. If you want to ski around with 11 other people following an instructor with limited English language skills around the mountain, fine. If you want a week in a small group, or one to one, with a highly qualified English speaking teacher, that's fine too. This is a fascinating thread, by the way.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have to agree with Roy Hockley, For me the ability (or lack of it) of my instructor to race through gates is not important. I want them to be good instructors (with all the necessary analytical and communication skills as well as skiing ability) rather than great racers. I don't go that fast (nor wish to) anyway.
Wouldn't a 'grading system' make sense where the super athletic racing types could be taught by similarly qualified individuals and us recreational 'punter skiers' could learn at a less challenging pace where the emphasis was more on enjoyment than competitive skill? I know the lessons I've enjoyed the most did NOT involve gates or timed runs. The eurotest seems (to me) to be an unnecessary barrier to entry which could prevent a lot of very capable (but maybe not quite 'race fit') instructors from earning a living providing a perfectly adequate service to holidaymakers. There are many aspects to enjoying oneself on skis, racing being just one, and one which is only relevant to a small minority of skiers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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AxsMan, Roy Hockley, The Speed Test is pretty much the only objective test of a skiers' ability.
It does not mean that everyone who passes is a committed racer - it just means they are very, very good skiers. The technical test that is also part of the ISTD is of a similarly high standard.
Given a choice between an ISIA and an ISTD of the same age and experience, and if I knew nothing else about them, I'd go for the ISTD. Does this mean that I'll be having race training - far from it ! Hopefully I'd get from the lessons what I need to improve.
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| ski wrote: |
| Given a choice between an ISIA and an ISTD of the same age and experience, and if I knew nothing else about them, I'd go for the ISTD. Does this mean that I'll be having race training - far from it ! Hopefully I'd get from the lessons what I need to improve. |
What about at double the price?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| AxsMan wrote: |
| I have to agree with Roy Hockley, For me the ability (or lack of it) of my instructor to race through gates is not important. I want them to be good instructors (with all the necessary analytical and communication skills as well as skiing ability) rather than great racers. I don't go that fast (nor wish to) anyway. |
I think there's some confusion about differences between 'racing' to pass the Eurotest and general recreational skiing. As far as I can tell they use the exact same core technique of being able accurately to employ good edging, pressure and rotation skills, the control of good stance and balance and an understanding of line. All of those skills are in constant use in everyday skiing. Skiing through gates does not involve anything different to what recreational skiers do, but in order to pass the Eurotest you need to employ that technique well. If a skier doesn't have the ability to ski gates well (as I know from personal experience ) it is because they don't have good core technical ability. I wouldn't want to have an instructor who didn't have good core technical ability, even if they charged a few quid less.
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rob@rar, Rob, understood, but in addition to skill and technique, doesn't passing this test require a degree of athleticism that may be unnecessary in an instructor of 'holiday' skiers?
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pam w wrote
'but easiski and teachers like her have passed the speed test too'
From easiski's messages i do not think she has passed the speed test.
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| AxsMan wrote: |
| rob@rar, Rob, understood, but in addition to skill and technique, doesn't passing this test require a degree of athleticism that may be unnecessary in an instructor of 'holiday' skiers? |
Although I'm not speaking from first hand experience I'd say that good technique and spending sufficient time training to ski gates were far more important to passing the Eurotest than requiring a very high level of fitness/strength.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges,
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What about at double the price?
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Wasn't talking about price, just about the merits of ISTD.
ISIAs and Grade IIIs can work in France for selected ski schools, as trainees. Not many of the British schools are able to do this, and therefore only employ ISTDs.
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pam w, I too like stewart woodward, thought that easiski, did not have the race test under her belt.
This fact is NOT, repeat NOT important to me. I believe I would get better instruction from her than I would get from someone closer to home. Mrs. RH does not speak English as her native language. The nuances she will need to learn is more important than the fact that she can ski fast and teach in Norway or Germany/Austria. It is a linguistic failing not ability.
If I misunderstood easiski, I apologise. Her ability to communicate with me is MORE important than the speed she can undoubtly ski.
Have to agree pam w, great topic for debate.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar,
You do need a
| Quote: |
| very high level of fitness |
to pass it 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yes, maybe I misunderstood, in which case apologies all round. However, it is a bit rich that we are sitting here talking about the importance of people working professionally in France being able to speak English, isn't it? I agree that subtle grasp of the language is a real plus for teaching adults, but I wonder how many French people wanting to learn, say, sailing in the Solent could find a Yachtmaster Instructor who can speak subtly fluent French? The language test for British instructors working in France sounds like a joke. One of the BASS instructors told me had been invited in for his oral French test and told (in French) to sit down. When he obeyed he was told he'd passed! I don't approve of living and working in a country for 5 years without being able to speak the language, but it does suggest that the French authorities could be a lot more bloody minded if they wished. Can you imagine the outcry in this country if the Lake District was full of, say, Iranian mountain guides who could only speak Farsi (or whatever) and who were there to take thousands of Iranian tourists round the hills? And that the Iranian tourists would march into all the local shops and businesses and demand service in Farsi?
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pam w, Part of the ISIA is a language test. I think the point of speaking native English is that it's easier for native english speaking clients. Speaking the language of the country you work in is obviously good manners...and speaking the language of your clients is good business !
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You know it makes sense.
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| ski wrote: |
rob@rar,
You do need a
| Quote: |
| very high level of fitness |
to pass it |
OK. I think I'd fail on both technique and fitness! Do you think particularly good fitness levels could overcome poor technique, or are both required?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar,
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Do you think particularly good fitness levels could overcome poor technique, or are both required?
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You need both ! Good technique relies on you being able to continue to function at a very high level for the whole length of the course. You'll only manage that with very good fitness.
Remember tho' this test is set at a very high level.
Edit: I should point out that I have NOT attempted this test. I am an ISIA, but too old to realiscally plan for this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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 just deleting an irrelevant post.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 18-12-06 21:07; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| However, it is a bit rich that we are sitting here talking about the importance of people working professionally in France being able to speak English, isn't it? I agree that subtle grasp of the language is a real plus for teaching adults, but I wonder how many French people wanting to learn, say, sailing in the Solent could find a Yachtmaster Instructor who can speak subtly fluent French? |
| Quote: |
| Can you imagine the outcry in this country if the Lake District was full of, say, Iranian mountain guides who could only speak Farsi (or whatever) and who were there to take thousands of Iranian tourists round the hills? And that the Iranian tourists would march into all the local shops and businesses and demand service in Farsi? |
Exactly, pamw this is the same argument I have had time and time again with friends who ski in France at least once each winter, and then complain about rude checkout assistants in the shops 'who refuse to speak English' I live in a tourist destination, and each Summer there are lots of foreign exchange students, who no doubt speak Enlgish to the shop assistants, as you could bet your life that none of them will speak french/spanish/italian. My French is not brilliant by any means, but as I have French surname, have found myself in a French-speaking ski school a couple of times, daunting yes, but impossible,no.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Re-reading this thread my position comes across as being a little confused!
My experience of ISIAs/BASI2s/CSIA3s leads me to believe they should be regarded as being of a sufficient level to teach skiing autonomously.
Whilst I appreciate the other requirements it is necessary to satisfy, I think the main bar to the ISTD/BASI1 for most candidates is the Eurotest and I think it's set excessively high as a form of trade protection. I am in favour of a speed test as an objective assessment of technical ability but from what I've been told I'm pretty convinced the standard required should be lower than that of the Eurotest.
If given the choice between an ISIA and an ISTD neither of whom I have previous knowledge or experience of I would choose the ISTD assuming an acceptable absolute and relative price premium.
I think the British ski schools are expensive in absolute terms but I'm still willing to pay their price, not just for their instructors' language skills but for my perception of their better teaching skills too - I don't think that's so much to do with the ISTD as their attitude but could be wrong.
And while I'm at it: I don't care if I'm in a foreign land or if the service providers enjoy indulging me or not - my language skills, or lack of, are what they are; I'm the customer and I'm willing to pay more for a very good English speaker. And this doesn't preclude me from being polite and regularly inflicting my frightful European language skills on the natives.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Helen Beaumont, that's assuming that, as a tourist, you are actually allowed to speak French! Customer service on the locals' part I presume, but I've lost count of the times I've been in restaurants in various parts of France and ended up in the rather ludicrous situation of me stubbornly speaking French and the waiter equally stubbornly speaking English
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eng_ch, that's polite in France. If you make the effort to speak their language they will return the compliment and make the effort to speak yours! I agree it can be irritating though when you know your fench is 10x better than their english!
slikedges, But they are and they can. They can work for lots of schools, even in France, Austria and Italy while they train for their last bits of their exams. It actually isn't that diffciult for a Brit to get a job in most European ski schools. However if less than ISTD you would have to be a "stagiere". However since most ISIAs have already passed their eurotest if they're serious (best to do it early and then get on with the rest), there is almost a non-issue. If they don't want to continue to the end of the road (but there's no point going that far and not finishing the job), they can do as Ski does, or go to the States or Canada or Australia or ..... lots of other possibilities. British instructors have a lot more opportunities than, say the French. The french only have one diploma - National - if you don't get that you don't have the alternatives of ISIA, or grade III or whatever. You're finished!
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eng_ch, only if they actually speak English, Monetier-les-Bains still has quite a few restaurateurs who don't speak any at all, (although they are trying to learn).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
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the language test for BASI instructors isn't!
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I think they have recently tightened up. At ISIA level there is now a mandatory workbook. You can still gain an exemption - with an appropriate 'A' level, for instance.
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FAQ
My conjecture anyway. 