 Poster: A snowHead
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Fair play to you, much better pricing.
I've done my share of racing - but up hill not downhill. 
I can teach you any number of things but not skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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my point still remains .....just because you can ski fast doesn't mean you can teach!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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professorpool, You will find that in the "snobby" (as we think of them) northern resorts the Brit ski schools charge more. smaller businesses like myself and Eurekaski charge what we think we're worth in relation to the other local schools. In both cases we're more expensive, but not twice the price. I also think they're too expensive, but was upset by the suggestion that they were in some way dishonest and/or inferior.
EUROTEST Right the point is that very efficient skiing also has the capability to be very fast. It's not that the best skiers are always the fastest, but that they would be capable of skiing faster. eg: in the first EOSB race I opened the course - that is I skied it without trying to be fast - ie: I wasn't racing . IIRC only 1 snowhead was faster than me and he was racing! So, the point is that skiing technically better allows you to ski faster. If you are required to have the technique to get the eurotest, your technique is of an acceptable level to be a top ski teacher. In addition there are all the other modules and training courses both on and off the snow. The french do more anatomy and we do more psychology (for example), but the skiing level required is the same and is regulated by the eurotest. You only have to pass it once, and of course it doesn't guarantee that you can teach, but it does guarantee that you're a bl**dy good skier. I couldn't pass it now in my 50's, most people can't pass it when they're 30 - you need to be young, strong, brave and supple - however most aspirant ski teachers are all these. I see absolutely no reason why we should accept british ski teachers at a lower level that french or austrian. Yes it's hard, yes it's tough, yes it's expensive, but it's no longer the casual "dip in for a couple of years ski bum" - it's now properly professional and personally I wouldn't want to change it.
I urge you all to read the link I put on my earlier post - read through all the courses to see what's involved - the eurotest is only a small part of it. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| easiski wrote: |
| you need to be young, strong, brave and supple |
Well, 0 out of 4's not bad.
Thanks, easiski.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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CEM, I can't see a problem with a speed test being a part of a ski instruction qualification per se. I can see that it gives the indication on technique that easiski says, which may be important to some clients. It is to me, to some extent. What I think is a problem is that the law in some countries prevents people from choosing instructors on their own criteria.
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| Personally I think it is BS. Skiing fast/Driving fast/Drinking fast does not make you good instructor at any of the above. Style is more important. |
Surely it's technique AND teaching ability which are the most important factors?
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I think the speed = technique equation, as it applies to instruction/coaching, breaks down at the extremes. A world cup skier, with excellent teaching skills, is going to be no better than a BASI 1 showing novices how to put their boots on. And who coaches the fastest skiers in the world - are they all ex-champions themselves - or are some merely excellent skiers with world-class coaching skills?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I think the speed = technique equation, as it applies to instruction/coaching, breaks down at the extremes. |
I agree, but for most instructors I don't think we are talking about the extremes. While the Eurotest is a series challenge, it's not that difficult for someone with even a junior racing pedigree. For "mere mortal" skiers who aspire to be instructors it's a good test of certain aspects of their technical abilities. No more, no less.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| CEM, I can't see a problem with a speed test being a part of a ski instruction qualification per se. I can see that it gives the indication on technique that easiski says, which may be important to some clients. It is to me, to some extent. What I think is a problem is that the law in some countries prevents people from choosing instructors on their own criteria. |
It's important to me that any instructor I have has, at some point, been technically proficient to pass the Eurotest. This is the same for any discipline, academic or sporting; for example, I wouldn't want a maths teacher who wasn't capable of passing a good maths degree. Passing the degree/speed test in itself isn't sufficient to guarantee good teaching, but it is a necessary aspect of the instructor's training in my opinion.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| CEM, I can't see a problem with a speed test being a part of a ski instruction qualification per se. I can see that it gives the indication on technique that easiski says, which may be important to some clients. It is to me, to some extent. What I think is a problem is that the law in some countries prevents people from choosing instructors on their own criteria. |
| Quote: |
| I couldn't pass it now in my 50's, most people can't pass it when they're 30 - |
does this mean you have or have not passed the euro thest Charolotte??
before anyone jumps on their high horse, i am not belittling easiski's qualifications, [quite the opposite in fact] but if you haven't and there are plenty of really good instructors who qualified several years ago [when it was not a required part of the qualification] who have not done the eurotest, does this make them any less competant to TEACH people to ski
Michael Shumachers father never drove an F1 car, but he did a pretty good job at coaching his son throught the ranks to F1
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski,Wrote
'If you are required to have the technique to get the eurotest, your technique is of an acceptable level to be a top ski teacher'
So what is BASI Technical 1 all about?
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CEM, I believe that BASI 1s of long standing were able to claim an exemption to the Eurotest.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think my main gripe with the concept of the Eurotest is that somebody who is an excellent technical skier and a superb teacher can be debarred from fully qualifying and practising by failing the Eurotest by a matter of a tenth or a hundredth of a second - an activity that is not (imo) core to what they are training for - and that doesn't seem right. I take the point that it's an objective measure but I'm not totally convinced that an objective measure is needed. I certainly think a top level instructor needs to be familiar with and have experience of practically every aspect of skiing (not sure about the need to jump off 60 ft cliffs ) and I can even see the need for a candidate to demonstrate proficiency in the gates - but you can see by eye whether a skier looks comfortable and fluent at racing and if every other module is passed with flying colours I just don't think the whole qualification should stand or fall on a fraction of a second. Examiners should have the discretion to make sure superb teachers are able to teach. Someone who is a tenth of a second outside the Eurotest pass speed is still a bloody fast and good skier and, for me, would fulfil the criterion for an *instructor*. If a fully qualified instructor then wants to go on and specialise in race coaching then that's a different matter
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I started on the path as a rugby coach a couple of years ago a couple of years ago and should I be given phsyical test, would fail admirably. Surely the speed test does no favours for those with a gift for teching but who are not spring chickens
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Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch, In the old days your pass or fail could stand or fall on whether the trainer liked you or not, or thought your ar*e was attractive!  If you had seen some of the old Grade IIIs ski before we raised our game, you probably wouldn't say that! Some of them couldn't do a proper parallel turn. In the early 70's you would have been at Grade III training level.
CEM, ESC race coaches can work in Europe, but only training their own clubs. laundryman, No. I was one of the older Grade 1s (you had to be over 40 and a national for more than 4 years) who were exempted. However I am sure that I could have passed it in my 20's. I'm quite sure I could still pass the Test Techinique (if I wanted to spend 3 weeks flat on my back afterwards). This was all before the European agreement, and the French were never unreasonable. The reasoning was that you had proved yourself over a period of time and that doing the necessary training at over 40 was unreasonable. The window was only there for a couple of years for those of us who were pioneers (as it were) to working in France. Later candidates, even if they were over 40 still had to do it. I think that's fair enough.
stewart woodward, The technical is just that - a technical examination - not an objective test. However fair the examiners think they are, they are people, and can still be influenced by odd things.
the point is true that you don't have to be a great racer to be a good teacher, but ask yourselves if the Austrians, Italians and French (and Swiss in point of fact although they're on their own) have to do it - why not us? If we fail, we can go to the States, and lots of other countries to teach, we have plastic slopes and snowdomes, we have qualifications below ISTD which ar useful in other parts of the world. If a French person fails, they have to find something else to do for the rest of their lives, they don't have any lower qualifications. We do, in fact have many advantages over the europeans. It's part of the exam system, it won't change, and all this griping is only going to make us look inferior, not worth more money!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| easiski wrote: |
professorpool, You will find that in the "snobby" (as we think of them) northern resorts the Brit ski schools charge more. smaller businesses like myself and Eurekaski charge what we think we're worth in relation to the other local schools. In both cases we're more expensive, but not twice the price. I also think they're too expensive, but was upset by the suggestion that they were in some way dishonest and/or inferior.
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If it was my posts that led you to believe that I, or anyone else, thinks that the instruction is inferior then I apologise as I did not mean that at all.
However, I still contest the view that the instruction cannot be better and certainy cannot be better to the value of more than a 100% uplift.
Out of interest, where are you based?
And Les Gets? Snobby?
You're worrying me now! That is not my kind of resort and I also slightly disturbed by the numbers of brits reportedly using it.
I havent been there for about 6 years. I remember it as being quite quaint and not to many brits about, thogh I mostly skiied it in early January.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| I think my main gripe with the concept of the Eurotest is that somebody who is an excellent technical skier and a superb teacher can be debarred from fully qualifying and practising by failing the Eurotest by a matter of a tenth or a hundredth of a second |
Yes, that's a tough situation; I have a couple of friends who have been outside the time by a small margin, and it's a financial disaster for that season as well as personally very disappointing. But if you set an objective test such as a timed run there will always be some people who just squeeze through and some people who just miss the target. Unfortunately that's life, and I'm sure that most of us have narrowly failed to achieve something we wanted to at some point or other. I can't see the point of allowing examiners to have the flexibility to 'pass' someone who narrowly fails to reach the time - the Eurotest should be an objective measure or it shouldn't be used at all. There are plenty of other aspects of Grade 1 assessment where the examiner has some discretion on passing or failing candidates.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sir Alex Fergusson, was a poor footballer. He appears to be a successful coach. If he would have to run the length of the field a second or two slower than the average team member to get a managerial position Man Utd would have difficulty getting anyone, what is Linford Christie doing these days?????
Some students may wish to be instructed by Herman Mayer, possibly only for the drinking cudos they would get in the bar. In my opinion a native English speaking BASI instructor, would put his point accross better "zan a goood farsht ski raicer".
It is far more important that the instructor can put his point accross to his students/players that they can understand. This is where my analagy falls down. Both the herminator and Sir Alex have difficulties with their English!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Forgot to say, great debate. It certainly has opened the hornet's nest.
professorpool, Don't be too dissapointed many of the Brits that inhabit Les Gets for some or part of the season are not all Hooray Henry's. Enjoy the week.
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| Sir Alex Fergusson, was a poor footballer. He appears to be a successful coach. If he would have to run the length of the field a second or two slower than the average team member to get a managerial position Man Utd would have difficulty getting anyone, what is Linford Christie doing these days????? |
But with the Eurotest we're not talking about only the very best racers being able to pass it. It's not as if you need a World Cup racing career in order to pass - so comparisons with famous sportmen or coaches from other disciplines aren't really applicable. As far as I can tell, to pass the Eurotest you need to have very good technical ability, be dedicated enough to train hard and be fairly fit. Is it too much to ask that new instructors be able to demonstrate those attributes (as well as the other requirements of their qualification)? It's not as if good GS technique is completely unrelated to other aspects of recreational skiing.
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Forgive me for thinking aloud but I was wondering if the Eurotest is, effectively, a matter of tradition and background more than anything else? The French, Austrians, Italians etc are putting their kids on skis almost before they can walk, as a matter of course, and when they put their kids into ski school the country IS looking to train racers who will win medals etc. If I'm not mistaken, ESF kids' courses all finish the week with a race? Against that background I can see why French/Austrian/Italian instructors might need to be racers and able to coach racing. But the demographic of British skiers seems to me to be totally different, there are far more older and adult learners and all bar an exceedingly small minority are not seeking to be WC racers: they are looking more to achieve a high level of competence in all-mountain skiing for their week or 5's holiday each year. And that, I think, places different requirements on their instructors: more emphasis on the ability to convey concepts and hence native language requirement, less need for a racing background.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Is it too much to ask that new instructors be able to demonstrate those attributes (as well as the other requirements of their qualification)? |
You can ask whatever you want, and I can see why you might like to ask that question. For me, the issue is should customers be able to ask whatever questions they like - and I believe the answer should be 'yes'. As I said above, I'm fine with BASI and other national bodies defining qualifications as they see fit; what I don't understand is why they should be enshrined in any nation's laws, thereby to restrict customers and suppliers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Roy Hockley, the whole point is that now BASI ISTD instructors are on a level playing field with everyone else, and asrob@rar, says it's not necessary to have been a racer - I know peeps who've passed in their 30s and 40s without ever having raced. However a lot of us Brits have raced you know - maybe not to the level of a Hermann Maier, but nevertheless ....
eng_ch, Not many adult learners actually want to become ski teachers - most are not prepared to put in the effort. the whole point is that it's us who want to go and work in Europe - not the other way around. we therefore have to toe the line, and I think the profession is better for it.
laundryman, I don't see a problem with any nation insisting that people who are responsible for other people's lives in a hostile environment (which we are), should be able to demonstrate proper qualifications.
the whole point is now moot anyway. It's a done deal and has been for several years. It's not as though there aren't a large number of Brits working in Europe - there are. the fact that so many of them stick to the major Brit strongholds, don't bother to learn the native language, and work exclusively with Brit ski schools that charge a premium is proof. However there are lots of others out there working for native ski schools - you only have to ask! Why is no-one getting upset about the off piste mountain safety module which we had to adopt? We didn't have that before, either!
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| easiski wrote: |
| I don't see a problem with any nation insisting that people who are responsible for other people's lives in a hostile environment (which we are)... |
Some of the time.
| Quote: |
| ...should be able to demonstrate proper qualifications. |
Do mountain guides have to pass a speed test?
Why shouldn't caveat emptor apply? Purchasers of ski instruction aren't exactly a vulnerable group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Why shouldn't caveat emptor apply? Purchasers of ski instruction aren't exactly a vulnerable group. |
I disagree. Maybe not vulnerable to risk of death or serious injury (although I suppose that could be the case with some types of mountain activity), but certainly vulnerable to being ripped off or bamboozled by people who don't have a licence to practice. As far as I can tell most of the regulation is the profession regulating itself, with very little imposition of employment regulations from national governments.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| laundryman wrote: |
[Do mountain guides have to pass a speed test?
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Yes, according to a couple of mountain guides that I was talking to a few weeks ago. Not the same Eurotest as Alpine skiers, but a timed run nevertheless.
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rob@rar, I'm quite happy with self-regulation.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman, "Why shouldn't caveat emptor apply? Purchasers of ski instruction aren't exactly a vulnerable group"
I disagree. Most peeps taking instruction know absolutely nothing about mountains or the dangers thereon. Last week PaulMcK went up a lift with one of the Varisty girls who was complaining that the runs in LDA weren't tough enough compared to Austria and Switzerland. They happened to be on the Bellecombe over the Grand Couloir. So he took her down there, which she couldn't cope with at all, and then thought some of the untracked off piste looked nice. Paul pointed out that if it wasn't tracked there must be a reason, and that you should be careful of avalanches. She replied "oh there isn't enough snow for it to avalanche". Well - this was a youngster who had plainly skied all her life, (although she thought she was better than she was), and she had NO IDEA. You can get avalanched on the piste in the right conditons. You can get lost on the mountain. You have to know when to get off the mountain - most people don't even know these things.
The French government says you have to be "diplomé" to teach anything - I can't see why this should be a problem. What's contained in those diplomas is not a government matter. Look at what happens sometimes on outdoor pursuits school trips when they don't use properly qualified staff. BTW the apprenticeship for High Mountain Guide is 7 years.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski,
Agree entirely with your comments regarding peoples lack of knowledge of the mountains.
How many times do you see people skiing in entirely the wrong clothing,Tee shirts might be ok in the village but not up the mountain, and venturing into areas they do not know.
Unfourtunatly i have just read the report about an avalanche in Austria(where one person died). This is the second fatality of the season i have read about.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, perhaps if ski instruction were not regulated by the French state, the young lady might have been able to purchase some instruction at a price she considered affordable - maybe from someone who missed the speed test cut by a few tenths of a second.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Regardless of whether any of us agree with the Eurotest or not, there has to be a method of separating good from bad. I have seen in Canada , ski instructors teaching children who did not ski very well themselves. Sorry, but I expect my ski instructors to be able to ski properly, If to pass the Eurotest you need to have excellent technique, balance, etc, then it is a good method of assessment . They do after all, need to demonstrate the technique they are trying to get you to learn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helen Beaumont, I don't think anyone has said otherwise, so there's no need to apologise.
I have seen an ESF instructor with a very large group of kids (aged 10-12, I would say) floundering in the off-piste (rocky, wooded and skirting a significant cliff) under a long chair lift. (Chistommet, on the Jaillet side of Megève for anyone who knows it). There were skis and bodies everywhere and many tears. Eventually the instructor walked the group upwards - a bloody long way. I think I'd rather have an instructor who might be a fraction slower through gates, but with a better facility for assessing the capability of his charges AND the freedom to make that choice for myself.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I think I'd rather have an instructor who might be a fraction slower through gates, but with a better facility for assessing the capability of his charges AND the freedom to make that choice for myself. |
It's not an either/or situation; both aspects of teaching will be assessed before the instructor is given a licence to practice. BASI 1 (and I presume the French and other systems of qualification) require a lot more than just the ability to ski quick through GS gates (although that in itself is a pretty good test of core technique). A trainee instructor's understanding of client care and risk assessment will be examined along with their personal skiing abilities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar ... and as my example shows, it doesn't always work. The main point is that I want the freedom to choose an instructor on my own criteria (which may include reaching various levels defined by a professional body).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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No test always works but the question should be is it a reasonable discriminator? I suspect the Eurotest is as you will get better technical skiers on one side of the line than the other and probably better instructors.
From what I have read on this thread the most obvious gripe with it to me is that you effectively have to be young 20-early 30's to pass.
I think it makes sense to age handicap it as well as to have a different time for women and men. If as easiski, has said her technical ability has progressed in recent years with greater practice but her speed has inevitably got slower with age it is a pity that people who wish to come to instructing later in life cannot make it to the top level.
I do not know how ridgedly applied the qualifications are in other countries. In my one lesson last year my Austrian instructor was whilst attempting to teach me how to carve also bemoaning the fact that the ski schools in Austria were employing a lot of foreign nationals with vey poor technical skills for their language ability.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar ... and as my example shows, it doesn't always work. The main point is that I want the freedom to choose an instructor on my own criteria (which may include reaching various levels defined by a professional body). |
I accept that it's not a foolproof system, indeed that form of licence to practice will never be able to offer 100% guarantees that every single practitioner will be honest and professionally competent. For that kind of quality assurance I think the individual ski school (or personal reputation of sole traders) is a far more important mechanism in making sure the client gets what they pay for (which is why I tend to go with small, British ski schools rather than the ESF behemoth, if I'm allowed to nudge this thread back to its original topic). However, just because the system of self regulation is not 100% effective I don't think that's an argument for complete deregulation. I'd rather a 80% effective system than no system at all. I don't think it is merely a coincidence that many different professions have invented their own form of self regulation, culminating in a licence to practise scheme.
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... and many haven't (at least, not with that culmination), which may not be a coincidence either.
It seems rough justice to me, that someone whose best talent is ski instruction, but who is a whisker from passing the speed test, may not be able to practise the trade at all (in countries where it is licensed). Presumably, he is condemned to practise a trade for which he is less fitted, to his detriment and society's. Indeed, should every trade be so restricted, he may be unemployable. Perhaps that goes some way to explaining persistently high unemployment in highly regulated countries.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| but who is a whisker from passing the speed test, may not be able to practise the trade at all |
But surely you have to draw the line somewhere? Should pharmacists be allowed to practice if they narrowly fail an exam or two? Should engineers reach chartered status even though they don't quite reach the required standard? I'm sure it's tough to get close but not quite reach the standard, but it's the profession itself that established the rules and anyone who sets out to reach BASI 1 or equivalent knows what they have to achieve. There are other opportunities to teach skiing without the Eurotest, but they are limited and perhaps less lucrative, so all is not lost for those who don't reach that standard.
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I'd consider driving instructors to be a fair comparison to ski instructors, would you expect your driving instructor to have to lap Silverstone within a set time?
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FAQ
