 Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat,
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yes, legs apart is best
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So many jokes............
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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shoogly,
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next time i go for a pee, should i wear my boots and make like i'm skiing?
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NO - I've had some near misses in loos doing that. If you should lean forward slightly, you find that plastic ski boots and tiled wet floors means zero grip
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And if peeing in the woods remember to take off your skis (or keep them pointing across the hill, at the very least).
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Known in Austria as "having a wedel"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Or follow the yellow drip road
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the legs together technique can look very elegant if done by a good skier, but most movements in most sports look good when done by an expert I guess.
My last set of group lessons which was done relatively recently was taken by an old time Austrian instructor who had his legs glued together and was big on counter rotation though he had modern skis. I have to say he looked great doing it, not sure that I learned a lot about modern ski technique though. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think the legs together technique can look very elegant
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Elegant, maybe, but completely ineffective. Especially on steeps, racing, anything that involves a degree of performance.
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Elegant, maybe, but completely ineffective.
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From observation I would say relatively inefective rather than completely so; a lot of those old boys could ski a bit, it certainly works a little in soft snow which is one of my nemeses.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| veeeight wrote: |
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I think the legs together technique can look very elegant
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Elegant, maybe, but completely ineffective. Especially on steeps, racing, anything that involves a degree of performance. |
How do those old school guys adapt to steeps?
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easiski,
I wasn't really trying to disagree with you or V8 about the relative effectiveness of old fashioned versus modern technique. Within the limits of my knowledge I totally agree that modern techniques on modern equipment are far superior, but I think that some of the old fashioned techniques can look very elegant. Probably they need a certain snow quality and pitch to achieve this but to my eyes it still looks elegant.
I enjoyed looking at the old pictures and footage of J-C Killy and see where you get the description of demented bannana with the counter rotation and agressive pole plants. To my eyes though it looked as if he had a wider stance than the classic legs together style I don't know where it would occur on the hip width rating but it looked about hip width to me.
Great old photos and I will have to learn how to carve properly sometime 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skiben wrote: |
| veeeight wrote: |
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I think the legs together technique can look very elegant
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Elegant, maybe, but completely ineffective. Especially on steeps, racing, anything that involves a degree of performance. |
How do those old school guys adapt to steeps? |
They either continue to ski ineffectively, or they change their technique. Check the current generation of ski racers, where performance is everything and elegance is nothing, to see what technique they use (including stance).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Not having a go at anyone, just an observation - it brought home to me when watching "Strictly Come Dancing" this week.
I can see things like "flow", "upper body management" etc. in all the dancers, but when the judges talk about the movements in more detail, it becomes glaringly obvious that I just don't know what I'm looking at from an in-depth knowledge point of view.
And it must be the same for skiing. For the majority of people what they see is just at the surface, having a good eye for the subtle nuances of good technical skiing is just beyond most people that have not got a good tachnical grounding in skiing.
Which kinda explains why someone skiing gracefully down a slope, can in fact, be the worst thing I've seen in good technical skiing..... 
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, Spot on. Like seeing the difference in standard between a ski instructor and a WC skier. Most holiday skiers can't even begin to see, but we can teach them (on chairlifts etc), the more educated the skiing public the better IMO.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| And it must be the same for skiing. For the majority of people what they see is just at the surface, having a good eye for the subtle nuances of good technical skiing is just beyond most people that have not got a good tachnical grounding in skiing. |
I think that's right. I just can't see what is happening when I look at video, photos and people skiing with me if I try to spot the fine detail of what they are doing. Skiing with someone who has a 'practised eye' can be very helpful when the offer feedback.
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Poster: A snowHead
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So what else should i be doing that was considered ok a few years back but is a no no now? Where can i find an on-line guide to the differences between the old and the new?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight,
I don't doubt what you are saying I was talking on aesthetic lines rather than analytical. A further thought though on what you were saying, when I see an early intermediate skier I can often spot faults in technique but I imagine where we would differ is that you can analyse the cause of the faults whereas I wouldn't have a scoobie.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shoogly, How long is a piece of string? Impossible to say without seeing you ski I'm afraid. I don't think an on-line guide exists, but I may be doing something for Pedro Maier soon - no promises though.
T Bar, If you'd been at the PSB, you'd have seen any number of really super skiers, and might have changed your mind WRT aesthetics. the very best now, are both efficient and elegant, however this takes a long time to develop. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
T Bar, If you'd been at the PSB, you'd have seen any number of really super skiers, and might have changed your mind WRT aesthetics. the very best now, are both efficient and elegant, however this takes a long time to develop. |
I have to agree. I lost count of the number of times I had to stop and just watch. To see them do that stuff, on sometimes sheet ice, was both humbling and inspiring.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, I don't think my communication skills are very good I was not trying to say that modern skiing cannot or does not look efficient and elegant (but would agree with your previous point that I probably cannot tell the difference between a very good and a world class performer in free skiing). It is just that old fashhioned skiing can look good and elegant to me at least.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| T Bar, If you'd been at the PSB, you'd have seen any number of really super skiers, and might have changed your mind WRT aesthetics. the very best now, are both efficient and elegant, however this takes a long time to develop. |
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I'm not sure that elegance is a good yardstick to judge skiing ability by, but I have to say that this skier looks elegant to my eyes (1.5mb video).
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I'm not sure that elegance is a good yardstick to judge skiing ability |
Someone once said to us (can't quite remember who now) "don't sacrifice stability on the altar of style". IMO if someone is skiing well, then they will typically look stylish and elegant regardless - but as a by-product of function, not a goal in itself.
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rob@rar, Wonderful - constant poetry in motion.
The trouble is that as so many recreational skiers seem to find "old School" so elegant, it's a nightmare for us ski pros! How can we persuade peeps to learn to ski properly when they love to watch the feet together, arm waving demented bananas? I can't remember, but I'm sure if I skied like that now I'd get even more serious back trouble - all that sideways bending!
T Bar, I gues we'll have to leave it at that - you're not going to be persuaded are you?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
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T Bar, I gues we'll have to leave it at that - you're not going to be persuaded are you?
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I guess I won't be persuaded, but to be honest I have found it interesting and have thought about it. I suspect where we differ is that when I see a good old style skier skiing I see smooth movements and find the aesthetics pleasing. When you and V8 look at it you are analysing the movments and note them to be inneficient and this jars on your tastes; whereas those who cannot actually analyse the movements although we may realise they are innefficient because we have been told don't actualy find them displeasing to the eye because they are not obviously inefficient to us.
I did enjoy Rob's clip as well by the way.
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T Bar, At the PSB an experienced (in more ways than one) old style skier picked up the basic art of carving and was blown away by its charms.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Floppy the Snotman,
Thats great 
I don't want to ski with my feet together I want to learn to carve etc. I am talking about visuals not how I want to ski, I am not trying to say that in any way it is an objectively better or more efficient way of skiing or more fun to do or anything and was not really trying to compare the two methods.
I hope that I can get some lessons at some point and learn the new techniques (I have tried a bit) and am genuinely glad they work.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So, have a look at the following clip (top left hand panel on the webpage) - I'd be interested to hear your observations.
This is "real world skiing", not demos, just guys n gals having fun, on some knarly terrain, and some challenging snotty snow on occasion.
http://www.snowproab.com/
Does it make you want to go out there and ski?
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Does it make you want to go out there and ski? |
Nah, makes me glad I'm sitting in the office looking at an overcast sky.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, easiski, Just watched that video half a dozen times - poetry indeed.
But a question - To my eye it looks like he is not only transferring his weight to the outside ski, he's actually lifting the inside ski an inch or two off the snow? Am I right and is this a 'good' thing? I understood that the weight should be kept on the inside ski a little to engage both skis for better stability? Don't get me wrong I'd give an arm or two to be able to ski like that guy, just wondering if literally lifting one ski off the snow would be a way to improve my technique?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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AxsMan, there's at least one instructor who teaches just using the outside ski, and one of his beginner moves is to pick up the inside ski, and point the tip down and angled into the turn, this then makes your outside leg fall into the turn too.
To make the move effective, it helps if your feet are unnaturally close together - he talks about picking up the inside ski so that its edge is against the outside boot.
It's very like a lot of stuff that has been taught in the past, but he put a name on it, and claimed it as original. Most instructors I've come across will have that turn in their box of tricks, and it can serve a purpose, but I prefer to think of myself as having 2 legs, and using both of them on the snow.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, interesting. i know a british ski school where a couple of the teachers use this method on early intermediates, as a way of getting them onto their uphill ski at the very beginning of the turn. not surprisingly, they don't give it a special name - it's just a means to an end
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Arno, yeah, it's the special name, the copyright on that name, and the insistance that it is the one and only way to learn that kinda grates with me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AxsMan, the inside/both skis discussion has been pretty much done to death alredy on a number of occasions. Basically: all weight on the outside ski works all the time except in bottomless powder - on ice it's essential. Weight on both skis works very well on moderate pistes and particularly in nice snow. Get on a steep icy black and you'll find a big problem if you have more than a smigeon of weight on the inside ski. The inside ski will carve even if you do not deliberately weight it, if it's on it's edge. Weather those exercises would help you is impossible to say without watching you ski.
Watching Thomas Grandi closely (and bearing in mind that he's a racer and his feet are shoulder width apart), you'll see that on one turn both skis leave the ground - I presume this is just rebound cos those guys put a staggering amount of pressure into a ski. He does lift his inside ski a little, but different parts of the ski at different points of the turn... this is really a whole different world from the exercises that we all do getting students to ski and turn on one leg. You'll also notice that he pressures the new turning ski very early compared to an "average" skier + his angles are quite extreme for the (apparent) terrain he's skiing.
T Bar, Note that in the CSIA video the skiers are all skiing hip width apart, which presents a very different picture. From certain angles during the turn it appears that the skiers' legs are together, and then in another angle you see that they're not.
veeeight, Nice vid - shame that the buffering wasn't working when I tried to watch the Level vids on another page. Too much going on in the background and not enough focus on the main vid! I got bored waiting on BB, and the whole website would be impossible on dial-up - too many movies and piccies changing etc. Shame.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wear The Fox Hat, easiski, Thanks for that, since I don't think I'll meet bottomless powder very often, I'll take your advice and focus on (almost) zero weighting the inside ski - that actually feels more natural to me, like 'stepping onto' the outside ski anyway. Dont think I'm quite at the stage of getting both ski's to leave the ground other than when I'm on a charilift!
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