 Poster: A snowHead
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What's the quickest way to find a buried skier?
A box of tricks (or rather two boxes of tricks) or the skier's equivalent of an umbilical cord?
Colin Fraser, author of the landmark book 'The Avalanche Enigma' said this 40 years ago:
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| If you are armed with the knowledge that you are heading unavoidably into avalanche danger your chances of staying alive are considerably improved, and they can be enhanced still further by taking a few simple measures. The most important of these is to wear an avalanche cord. This is nothing more than a red cord about 30 yards long and about 1/4 inch in diameter. You tie one end round your waist and leave the rest like a long tail. The principle is that part of the light cord will remain on the surface if you are buried by an avalanche. The rescuers find the cord, pull it out of the snow until it goes down vertically and then dig you out. It is cheap, simple and has saved hundreds of lives. |
Yes, hundreds of lives, in the decades before skiing became a mass-participation sport.
Colin Fraser's claim can surely be trusted. He worked in a Swiss mountain rescue organisation and with the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research, Davos.
What he doesn't mention, which is probably a useful addition, is a direction marker at intervals along the cord so that whoever finds it can quickly know which way to trace the cord back to the body.
People say that carrying and using an avalanche cord would be a big hassle, but they forget that there's no reason why it couldn't be a supplementary device to a transceiver when the danger is really clear and a skiing group is acutely aware of the threat of death.
Wouldn't you like to be able to trail an avalanche cord in that situation?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, I think they're obviously absolete. 
Seriously, I know you were pushing this idea last winter and there were times when I was off-piste thinking I should have ine if those chords. But is 30 yards long enough? Also I seen quite a few avalanches close up and wonder whether the chord would be at the surface at all?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 26-08-06 16:55; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, Probably OK in the days when you were skiing, and no one else was around. Not so hot if another skier traps the cord, or the cord get traps in bushes or rocks. When did you last ski with such a cord?
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If it had to be one or the other, I'd go with the bleep.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If hundreds of lives have been saved by avalanche cords it seems crazy to dismiss them.
Do we have any data on lives saved by transceivers?
Aren't the two approaches complementary, rather than competitive?
achilles, I've never skied with an avalanche cord, but I've started a slab avalanche. I was lucky that the slope bottomed out before long.
You seem to be indulging in cheeky debating tricks again. I am not a dinosaur.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
If hundreds of lives have been saved by avalanche cords it seems crazy to dismiss them.
Do we have any data on lives saved by transceivers?
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Yes but do we have any data about the effectiveness of avalanche cords?
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Do we also have data on the number of people caught in avalanches then and now? Horse-drawn ambulances saved hundreds of lives as well.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
People say that carrying and using an avalanche cord would be a big hassle, but they forget that there's no reason why it couldn't be a supplementary device to a transceiver when the danger is really clear and a skiing group is acutely aware of the threat of death. |
Do you use both yourself? My understanding is that cord can detach too easily in an avalanche.
BTW, nice to see you posting about skiing again.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| flicksta wrote: |
| Do we also have data on the number of people caught in avalanches then and now? Horse-drawn ambulances saved hundreds of lives as well. |
No we don't, because there are a lot of people who are saved from avalanches where that information is not reported to the competent authorities.
However lets take a look at France. In 2004-5 there were 20 avalanches involving fatalities, 25 deaths and 71 accidents that either involved or were reported to the rescue services. Of these all fatal avalanches are known and probably a large % of serious accidents as these would have involved the rescue services who record the cause of the accident. It is estimated that the total number of avalanches involving people is 4 times the figure known to rescue services and some of these are quite large events where people were rescued without major injury.
If we concentrate on the 43 victims who were completely buried we have six who were found by dogs (5 dead, 1 alive), 3 who were found by an organised probe search (all dead), 1 who was found by her brother probing where he thought she was buried (alive) 22 found by avalanche beacon (12 dead, 10 alive) and 8 found through surface indication (7 alive, 1 dead). 2004-5 was a fairly typical year.
From this we can see that if you wait for the interventation of organised rescue services you will most likely be dead. Around 80% of victims survive the initial avalanche, less than a third will still be alive 45 minutes later. I recently spoke to the senior pilot for the Civil Security who said that from someone making the call they could be airborne in around 10-15 minutes with perhaps 20-30 minutes flying time to the avalanche scene, that is with the 220 kph/h EC145 helicopter. That is assuming they know exactly where you are and that weather conditions are favourable.
The avalanche beacon figures don't look good, over 50% of victims wearing beacons are killed by the avalanche. A number of factors can explain this figure:-
1. Some beacon wearers are taking on more risk than non-wearers so are more frequently caught in slides and the slides are more serious.
2. Some beacon wearers are too slow at searching due to lack of familiarity with their equipment and lack of practise in simulated rescues.
Point 2 can be addressed with more training in avalanche rescue and to some extent by more intuitive beacons. However remember that the easiest beacon in the world will not help you a great deal if you don't have any practise at organising a rescue operation and administering first aid etc. A concrete example, in one rescue scenario we practised the two rescuers were able to locate a beacon after 5 minutes traversing a slope but had left their probes and shovels in their rucksacks at the top of the "slide". This required a 10 minute round trip.
Conventional wisdom would suggest that greater education would address point 1. However studies, such as McCammon, suggest that skiers with better route planning skills use that knowledge to take on even riskier routes. Risk reduction methods might be a solution to that tendency.
The surface indication figure, 7 live recoveries from 8, would suggest that avalanche cords, or the avalanche ball, have a role to play. Surface indications include skis and poles visible on the surface or a glove poking through the snow. This is not a fair comparison with the beacon fatalities. In these cases the victim is not deeply buried, the snow, although deeply packed, will have more air in it and will not be crushing the chest of the victim restricting breathing. The victim, in resting near the surface, probably also suffered less trauma in the slide. The victim will also remained buried for less time reducing the risk of suffocation and hypothermia.
In conclusion. In order to have a better than 50% chance of being rescued alive when buried by an avalanche it is essential to be skiing with others and for everyone to be equipped with search and rescue gear and be competetent in its use and in giving first aid. A surface indication, including a device such as the avalanche cord, remains the easiest and quickest way of locating a victim. Staying on the surface of a slide is important to survival chances and the ABS Airbag system has an role to play here.
Regarding the specifics of avalanche cords, it is my opinion they are not practical and were used for the want of anything better. Trailing 20-30 meters of cord or ribbon will interfere with skiing and other other skiers and could be dangerous under certain conditions. The cord can also get buried either during the slide or if there is a secondary slide or sluffing. If it is buried even 1 cm you won't rescue your buddy. Without any compartive figures for their effectiveness such as I have outlined above I believe that an avalanche beacon remains the most practical and reliable method of locating a completely buried avalanche victim.
This is a further analysis of the 2004-5 avalanche deaths for France publised in the fall edition of The Avalanche Review.
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davidof,
That is a very interesting post. One question though. Is Hypothermia much of a problem for avalanche victims? Snow is a pretty good thermal insulator, snow holes are dug for survival. I would have thought that once you are removed from the wind the chances of suffering hypothermia before asphyxia must be small. I guess the major avalanches where you here of peoples clothes being ripped off it is a possibility but other forms of trauma must come into play here?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Is Hypothermia much of a problem for avalanche victims? |
Yes it is, even after 30 minutes under snow many people are hypothermic - that is their body temperatures have dropped a couple of degrees. A number of victims are rescued alive only to die from the effects of hypothermia. That is why when crossing a potential avalanche prone slope it is a very good idea to zip up coats, vents and pull up your good (although it will probably get removed by the slide. When climbing you should put your outer shell on.
If you think about it you are packed tight in a zero degree or less freezer. The heat is sucked out of your body.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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davidof, Thanks for the prompt answer I guess I was thinking of people being fully dressed and covered by snow. Rather than the spinning with snow getting into every place which is probably the reality of many avalanches..
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achilles and Tim Brown, I've only ever skied with transceivers. The training given was minimal in each case, not that the training is anyone's responsibility except for the user. But these are not easy devices. If I saw a trace of cord on the surface of an avalanche field I think I'd race to it, maybe using the transceiver to narrow the field of search and tracing.
davidof, thanks for your informative points. Maybe Davos have some firmer historical data on this. I think Colin Fraser's wording is striking though, and it is a meticulously researched book. Certainly it would be easy to set up some comparative field research, putting dummies in detonated avalanches and seeing whether the avalanche cord has an ongoing role in finding people quickly. I agree with your suggestion of some additional research and comparative research.
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
achilles and Tim Brown, I've only ever skied with transceivers. The training given was minimal in each case, not that the training is anyone's responsibility except for the user. But these are not easy devices. If I saw a trace of cord on the surface of an avalanche field I think I'd race to it, maybe using the transceiver to narrow the field of search and tracing.
davidof, thanks for your informative points. Maybe Davos have some firmer historical data on this. I think Colin Fraser's wording is striking though, and it is a meticulously researched book. Certainly it would be easy to set up some comparative field research, putting dummies in detonated avalanches and seeing whether the avalanche cord has an ongoing role in finding people quickly. I agree with your suggestion of some additional research and comparative research. |
The SLF tested the avalanche ball in 2001, here is a video:
http://www.lawinenball.at/Videos/Davos.wmv
As you can see the ball stays on the surface in both cases. The ball is a spring loaded canvas affair about 60cm in diameter. It works on the principal that larger objects rise to the surface in a moving mass of different sized objects. As I mentioned earlier the cord is strong and thin enough that you can pull it through avalanche debris to end up above the victim.
The avalanche ball offers the following advantages over cords
i. it is almost certain to remain on the surface
ii. is packed away while skiing
iii. no need to dig trench to follow cord (the ANENA questions this in the case of very dense avalanche debris, austria data suggests it is possible).
The disadvantage is that it needs to be deployed manually so should be used in conjunction with an avalanche beacon. The big advantage over beacon searches is speed for untrained users.
It is an interesting development of the avalanche cord but as you have suggested fashion may play a big role in people's choices.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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davidof, I thought that one might have to launch the ball as one was going under - but it looks as though you can launch it directly you realise you are caught up in an avalanche. €199 I see. Worth thinking about. Do you use one?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| davidof, I thought that one might have to launch the ball as one was going under - but it looks as though you can launch it directly you realise you are caught up in an avalanche. €199 I see. Worth thinking about. Do you use one? |
I find the €199 too high for a product that has not been widely proven outside of tests. I think that kind of money would be better put towards an Avalanche ABS if you are looking for extra safety.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, thanks. Hmm Pricier. I can see it works. Nice rucksacks, too. But for the amount of skiing I do I'll take a view on the risk and not get one - though I use transceivers, of course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When I was in an avalanche it hit me from behind without warning so I couldn't have deployed anything that needed deploying. I question the presence of mind of someone to do it in time.
If I have serious doubts about a slope I don't ski it - I would rather climb out. The avalanche I was in was totally unexpected to all including the guide. I doubt I would ever deploy the cord.
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I seem to remember that someone developed a rucksack that had 'inflating wings'
Aledgedly, this allowed the wear to 'float' on the avalanche rather than to sink in it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[From the other thread]
Rob said:
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| David Goldsmith, blaming capitalism seems a bit of a stretch. You think mountain professionals wear transceivers because they're fashionable or because they've been conned by the fancy marketing? You seem to have a low opinion of the people who work in the mountains! |
I most certainly don't regard mountain professionals as naive in the slightest. I just want to know why the simplest and cheapest possible device, responsible for hundreds of saved lives (according to a world-renowned expert) was abandoned.
Remember that this is not the choice between one solution and another, but the potential use of both, simultaneously. Many modes of transport have multiple life-saving devices.
Latchigo said:
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Can someone explain how the cord manages to stay above the avalanche please.
Is this guaranteed ?
Are you supposed to ski with the cord dragging along the ground, or does it get released (manually/automatically) ? |
It's likely that much of a 30m avalanche cord would be under the surface, but (since it has a lower density than most snow) some of it would rest on top. The turbulence of the sliding rolling snow surely leaves a reasonable section visible - hence its effectiveness.
Yes, the cord simply drags like a long tail.
achilles said:
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| And for a few quid could find themselves jerked off-balance into a fall on a steep slope when the cord catches in rock or a bush. |
Colin Fraser makes no mention of this problem. The cord is being pulled one way, mainly down the fall-line while the skier turns, and is very light and otherwise unconnected, so I can't envisage this problem.
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David Goldsmith, so, all in all, you do see yourself as more competent than davidof. Fascinating.
| davidof wrote: |
Regarding the specifics of avalanche cords, it is my opinion they are not practical and were used for the want of anything better. |
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achilles. No I certainly don't see myself as more competent than davidof. I see myself as significantly less competent. This is just an exercise in asking some (hopefully) relevant questions. The impracticalities of letting out and rolling up an avalanche cord are obvious. Maybe a modern-day solution would be a cassette with spring-loaded retraction of the cord at the end of the run. Maybe a tape would be more compact than a cord, in that sense.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I just want to know why the simplest and cheapest possible device, responsible for hundreds of saved lives (according to a world-renowned expert) was abandoned. |
Perhaps for the same reason as we ski in plastic boots not leather? Or do you still ski in leather boots?
DG, my objection to what you have written on this in several threads is that you are not asking relevant questions, but you are advocating a particular position. Why the use of avalanche cords (if they ever were widely used?) was replaced by the widespread use of avalanche transceivers is a neutral question. But you didn't ask a neutral question, you acted as the voice of the past, on a very serious issue. Couldn't you find another, less serious, issue to fail to ask relevant questions about?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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surely the solution is to use both transceiver and the cord when skiing off-piste so there is a belt and braces approach. A lot of equipment though, but probaly worthwhile.
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Rob, lighten up! No, I've always looked to the future. You can't survive in this game without doing so ... but it's also wise to acknowledge historical inventiveness, rather than just accepting the so-called 'state of the art'.
The abacus isn't redundant. Also, check out Roman solutions to central heating and water transport. We seem to be short of water in SE England at the moment.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Oh good you've raised something intelligent in this thread. The Romans certainly did know something about civil engineering - and for my money, the Pont du Gard is one of the must-sees of the world.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Rob, lighten up! |
I'm surprised you don't think this is a serious issue, to be addressed in a serious manner. What avalanche protection will be using when you ski off-piste this season? Will you use an avalanche cord as well as (or even instead of) a bleep?
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Rob, to be perfectly honest, on the basis of my track record, I won't be using either. Having triggered one avalanche I try to be more cautious now.
Heeding avalanche warnings, watching out for lee slopes, avoiding provenly dangerous terrain, are surely the equivalent of 'avoiding icebergs'.,
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Most probably I will, Rob [to answer the first question]
If I die, please mark my tombstone [re. other thread] "Buried twice"
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith, and will there be Tamsins & Conditions on the tombstone?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| This is just an exercise in asking some (hopefully) relevant questions. The impracticalities of letting out and rolling up an avalanche cord are obvious. Maybe a modern-day solution would be a cassette with spring-loaded retraction of the cord at the end of the run. Maybe a tape would be more compact than a cord, in that sense. |
Well snowheads is here for people to ask questions. I was surprised that the debate about cords came around again but on rereading the old thread realized that I had posted something incorrect about the Avalanche Ball device so appreciate the opportunity to clarify how it works.
As it stands we need more information about why cords were abandoned and hard data on how effective they were. I'm sure the www.slf.ch could help but I don't have the time to find out. I would note that backcountry travel has changed markedly since the day of the avalanche cord when few people would venture into the mountains during the winter months, waiting for the more stable conditions of spring. It may not be easy to compare like with like. Again one of the dangers of avalanche S&R gear is it encourages us into more risk taking without necessarily being able to evaluate the trade-offs.
Re: the Romans.
It is true that at the end of the Roman occupation of Britain the population went in the course of 50 years from a culture that had access writing, stone built houses, roof tiles, good porcelain, piped water and sewerage plus a useable road system to an illiterate tribe of marauding Germans that lived in mud huts and it took us the best part of a 1000 years to relearn the skills the Romans had brought.
David - your idea of the spring loaded casette (much like modern dog leads) is one to take onto the Dragons Den!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I ski more than most and during this time I've set off a few small slabs and I've lost a reasonably close friend in a big slide. I usually take the line that avoidance and prevention is the better than equipment and gadgets. That said, I ski with a beeper (and practice 2 or 3 times per season for a whole day, for the past 5 years), shovel & probe (even when I know I'm not venturing off piste), I use a clinometer on unfamiliar slopes and always dig snow pits when I haven't had good reliable information about snow layers, weather patterns etc.
I've been looking at the ABS system for a couple of years now and I like the idea. Sadly, whilst I can almost justify it I can't afford the £400+ price tag, of course it then costs more than that... do you want / need to test it, I would, so you need another gas canister. And then in use. When do you pull the cord? Is this light sluffing going to become something bigger? Is this small slab just a small slab? I think last season I would have pulled the cord around 5 times, perhaps I could learn to be more selective when pulling the cord... but I sure wouldn't want to pull it too late. That's another 5 * new gas cans.
The Avalanche Ball is a product that, surprisingly, I hadn't heard of. And it seems to answer most of my fears. I can reuse it as many times as I wish to re-pack it, fantastic, I can test it and I can 'pull the chord' nice and early even if it was a false alarm.
The only thing I'd want to know before I put my cash up is whether there have been any cases of mechanical failure...
I may well be buying one soon.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
| ........ Again one of the dangers of avalanche S&R gear is it encourages us into more risk taking without necessarily being able to evaluate the trade-offs.......... |
 I don't think I ever ski with the attitude that if I get caught in an avalanche, it's OK, because there is a good chance I'll be rescued. I respect your experience - are you saying some skiers do?
That's not to say I don't accept that there is a risk, and I should be prepared. Like most, I guess, I have been in situations where leaders have called the party through one at a time. I've been warned not to traverse further - and shortly afterwards seen snow, where I would have gone, had slipped away. I've been in a party where the guide kept us back, triggered a small slab avalanche which he skied out of safely. But, certainly as a recreational skier, I feel I have been more than close enough to avalanche hazard, and I don't think I take risks on the basis of the S&R equipment being good.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| parlor wrote: |
| I usually take the line that avoidance and prevention is the better than equipment and gadgets. |
Well, prevention can only be done by avalanche fencing and (in a way) detonation.
But I agree with you 100% about avoidance. The crazies are the ones who desensitize themselves to the fact that avalanches are utterly deadly. You can have every bit of kit strapped to you - transceiver, ABS, balloon, cord - but the avalanche you should have avoided will probably leave you a twisted suffocated corpse.
Avoidance is 99% of the art.
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David Goldsmith, you know what I mean: 'prevention to me' getting caught in the slide, not the prevention of avalanches per se, ie proper risk assement as to whether I will ski a particular pitch or not. Other than that I agree with the principal, that having the gear may not make any diffference to your chance of survival.
On the other hand I don't mind adding a few bits of kit that might help MY chances (ball & beeper), and kit to help OTHERS (beeper, shovel & probe).
achilles, I understand that what davidof was saying is the false sercurity that carrying search & rescue equipment may give some skiers...
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| achilles wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| ........ Again one of the dangers of avalanche S&R gear is it encourages us into more risk taking without necessarily being able to evaluate the trade-offs.......... |
I don't think I ever ski with the attitude that if I get caught in an avalanche, it's OK, because there is a good chance I'll be rescued. I respect your experience - are you saying some skiers do?
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That's a good attitude to have. Some experts say you have to ask yourself the question "would I still ski this slope without a beacon?". If the answer is no you shouldn't be skiing it. On a personal level I think that is unrealistic but that is partially because wearing a beacon is second nature. Around where I live there are places I would go without a beacon but I've also skied a lot of stuff which shouldn't slide where I would always carry a beacon for my own personal safety.
To answer your question... the big move to winter powder skiing from spring skiing has in part been because we now have safety devices such as beacons. Round here the old guys still speak of "spring skiing - ski de printemps" when they refer to off-piste skiing or ski touring. It would never occur to them to go off piste before the 15th March. Now you could say that the joker of an "avalanche beacon, shovel and probe" has compensated for the increased risk during the winter months (75% of fatal avalanches occur in January and February) but I'm not sure that we humans, apart from maybe great card players or city traders, are able to instinctively judge those risks.
There are plenty of studies on human factors. Ian McCammon has done a lot of work in this area and a web search for some of his excellent papers is worthwhile. Dale Atkins from the CAIC is also active in this area. One thing this research shows is that people with a basic level of avalanche education are more likely to get caught in avalanches. The education seems to make them over confident about their ability to judge avalanche terrain. (I note a previous poster's equipment including a clinometre which is the most reliable way of gauging slope angles and what should and should not slide.)
Regarding ABS - I have seen them for considerably less than 400 quid and kick myself for not picking up a day sack from Blue Tomato when they had them on sale at 350 euros! I don't see why the canisters could not be reusable and capable of being charged with a diver's airline. This would be a big improvement in the design.
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davidof, Thanks, that clarifies. I don't think I would ever venture off-piste these days without an avalanche beacon, shovel and probe. And I am going off before spring snow comes. I am not sure it makes me "confident" - rather I think it gives rescuers some chance if I get caught, and me some chance if any of my companions is caught. Not getting caught still seems a whole lot better option!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
Regarding ABS - I have seen them for considerably less than 400 quid and kick myself for not picking up a day sack from Blue Tomato when they had them on sale at 350 euros! I don't see why the canisters could not be reusable and capable of being charged with a diver's airline. This would be a big improvement in the design. |
I'd need at least a 35-40L pack... I'm sure they can be found cheaper if you look hard enough, both the ABS website & SnR show them as £££.
Currently a spare canister is 85E, not sure how much a refill is, only ABS can do this currently but I like your idea.
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Why do a lot of people use ribbons attached to their skis? They work... proved in a lot of cases.
And in winter hiking I've stood 15 feet from a gully av and I have a healthy respect for them. I am far from expert but even on groomed pistes I am always looking for hints regarding snowpack stability.
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FAQ
