 Poster: A snowHead
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@Peter S, filled by cheap beginners skis 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Peter S, filled by cheap beginners skis |
Plus you could also detune any ski to give that underpowered wishy washy feel. Maybe there's a market for stöklis with chamfered edges?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sounds like the niche is for advanced skidable friendly skis. Should be lots of skiers falling into that category 
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golf clubs are specifically designed to hit the ball up in the air and long distances (and ostensibly straight ish) - it is human beings that do things that stop the club doing it’s only job
It’s the same with “carving” skis - human beings get in the way of them doing what they are designed to do
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| I was thinking about this thread when I was skiing in the slush on Monday – how do skiers not go AoT on those last few hundred metres through the wettest slop at the bottom, if they don't use their edges? I'm going edge to edge with quite short quick turns, otherwise my torso will rapidly overtake my feet, and we all know how that ends. |
No idea though I did relish the prospect of some blue run heroes today who were straightling a wide and unintimidating slope suddenly coming to an abrupt slowdown. Unfortunately didn't happen so maybe I was the fool.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Kenny,
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Beginners learn to skid, intermediates learn to carve and advanced skiers relearn how to skid
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One of the best things about my recent coaching week was rob@rar teaching me how smoothly to blend the two where appropriate.
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(S)He who does not adapt their technique to the conditions is doomed to suboptimal performance. You can't/shouldn't carve/skid everything.
Even WC racers stivot (see) when it's called for.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@frejul, some solidarity for you:
My dad is 81, has never grasped modern carving technique and says he never will, yet still enjoys himself and is quick enough to ski on-piste with a sporty teenager. Another 81 year old in our group has recently retired from alpine skiing, but in the earlier 20 year period I skied with him he made piste skiing look effortless in all conditions, without ever using a purely carved turn.
Drifting or brushed turns are good ways of describing the type of turns I think you are comfortable with. I see plenty of piste skiers who exclusively use drift turns in a very well controlled way. They are limiting their toolbox of techniques, but it's their money and choice how to ski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| frejul wrote: |
I'm giving up.
As I mentioned on another thread - eternal intermediate British dad skier (you know the type).
I'm having fun, I'm getting down all the runs I want to. But it's just not happening (aside from perhaps a few moments on a smooth black piste where the steepness gave my edges some more bite).
Have told teenage son - carving is for turkeys - and "skidded" is not the right term for my turns. I say it's high performance "drifting" like in motorsport
Anyway, not looking for carving tips - just some solidarity from other folks who've decided to settle for other turn styles! |
As most of us are not professional ski racers I think that it’s up to you. If you’re enjoying your skiing then great. However, if your son does learn to properly carve then you’ll have to deal with the leg-pulling when he’s standing there waiting for you !
Personally, I am always trying to get better … I view skiing more as a sport than a recreation … and I found that it took a LOT of coaching and practice to learn to properly carve. However, carving is not the only way to turn skis and in certain circumstances it’s not the right technique to use anyway.
Again, speaking personally, the more I learn and the more techniques I have in my ‘skiing toolkit’ the more I find I enjoy it. I participated in another thread where people were bemoaning the fact that pistes were hard and icy and saying that their holiday was ‘ruined’ as a result. My comeback was that it was the perfect time to enjoy some high speed carving and that, yes, I really do genuinely enjoy challenging myself on a hard, icy and steep piste. (Plus, speaking as the father of two 20-somethings … means I’m still faster and better than them for the moment as I’ve had the opportunity to do more training … don’t know how much longer that will last but probably for a while as they get 6-12 days per season and I’m usually on around 30 (and take coaching regularly))
So, up to you; if you want to learn to carve then you’ll need a good coach and the time/determination to do some things that won’t initially feel right; then suddenly it will come together and you’ll go ‘Wow’. If you don’t want to do that then also fine. Enjoy !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| frejul wrote: |
| I'm having fun. |
You win, no need to say or justify anything
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You know it makes sense.
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Coach says “stand on the outside ski”…
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| It's a hell of a lot easier to learn to carve on a sub 70mm ski. Once you get much above 75mm, you're really putting yourself at a disadvantage. I wouldn't try to learn on a slalom ski either, much easier to do GS style turns on a 16-18m radius ski. |
My quiver
67mm 14mradius
76mm 13.5m
95mm 16m
110mm 16.5m
The110s are as good as or better than any of the others for carving
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Poster: A snowHead
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| It's a hell of a lot easier to learn to carve on a sub 70mm ski. Once you get much above 75mm, you're really putting yourself at a disadvantage. I wouldn't try to learn on a slalom ski either, much easier to do GS style turns on a 16-18m radius ski. |
My quiver
67mm 14mradius
76mm 13.5m
95mm 16m
110mm 16.5m
The110s are as good as or better than any of the others for carving |
What on hard snow? That is physically impossible unless your skinny skis are jiggered. Why on earth would people ski skinny skis if that was true?
You simply can't roll a wide ski from edge to edge with as much control and precision as a skinny ski. On hard snow, the delicacy of that transition is key.
I've got skis from 68mm to 125mm waist (currently 75/88/108 in between) and the skinny skis are much the best tools for carving.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jedster wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| It's a hell of a lot easier to learn to carve on a sub 70mm ski. Once you get much above 75mm, you're really putting yourself at a disadvantage. I wouldn't try to learn on a slalom ski either, much easier to do GS style turns on a 16-18m radius ski. |
My quiver
67mm 14mradius
76mm 13.5m
95mm 16m
110mm 16.5m
The110s are as good as or better than any of the others for carving |
What on hard snow? That is physically impossible unless your skinny skis are jiggered. Why on earth would people ski skinny skis if that was true?
You simply can't roll a wide ski from edge to edge with as much control and precision as a skinny ski. On hard snow, the delicacy of that transition is key.
I've got skis from 68mm to 125mm waist (currently 75/88/108 in between) and the skinny skis are much the best tools for carving. |
Especially on hard corduroy, I think my feet are too wide for the skinny skis, the wide skis allow me to get the ski nearly perpendicular to the snow, without the boot contacing the snow & causing the edge to lose grip. The skinnys are ok for "mild" carving, but the wider skis allow me to get lower.
They did feel very odd for the first few days, but once I got tuned into them, they can be flicked from edge to edge just like the skinnys.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@tangowaggon, How are the bindings mounted on your narrowest skis? Race skis have lifter plates on them to avoid the boot hitting the snow.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @tangowaggon, How are the bindings mounted on your narrowest skis? Race skis have lifter plates on them to avoid the boot hitting the snow. |
My 67s & 76s are Head skis with their as supplied rail bindings, the boot sits 15-20mm above the top of the ski.
They are fairly old now, so I was considering an 11-12 m radius ski, focused on out & out carving performance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@tangowaggon, I have some 165 FIS SLs that are 12.5m radius and they easy as anything to carve, however, with the speeds you pick up, I prefer something longer and a bit wider radius, 175 Master GS type ski.
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| swskier wrote: |
| @tangowaggon, I have some 165 FIS SLs that are 12.5m radius and they easy as anything to carve, however, with the speeds you pick up, I prefer something longer and a bit wider radius, 175 Master GS type ski. |
I want the short radius skis so that I can carve silly angles without picking up silly speeds 
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| @tangowaggon, How are the bindings mounted on your narrowest skis? Race skis have lifter plates on them to avoid the boot hitting the snow. |
My 67s & 76s are Head skis with their as supplied rail bindings, the boot sits 15-20mm above the top of the ski.
They are fairly old now, so I was considering an 11-12 m radius ski, focused on out & out carving performance. |
Ah so not the ski but the mount!
My 68mm are also FIS SL with race plates
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But if you are right and fat skis can carve as well as skinny skis and can be flicked form edge to edge just as easily, why do you think race skis are skinny?
Also do you generally see corduroy as "hard"? It's hero snow isn't it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't think the mountings, rails or plates are going to make _that_ much difference, TBH. Yes, for precision control, faster transitions and maximum edge angles of course a narrow/race ski is going to be better, which is why I use my Head SLs or my Stoeckli GSs for normal on-piste days and teaching, but there seemed to be a view earlier in the thread that "fat skis can't carve" which is patently nonsense.
Yes, it's harder work, and the icier it gets the more harder [sic] it is, but I can carve pretty well on most stuff on my new 17m radius 120s, with no plate or rail mounting, as indeed I could on my previous 122s, although their ~26m radius obviously limited that significantly.
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| Quote: |
fat skis can't carve"
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Of course they can...but changing the edge cleanly on fat skis? Got to be easier on skinnier ones?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Of course skinnier skis are easier/quicker to transition but then any middleaged Brit pistencarver jockey is still going to be shown up by some local tyro on 120mm clown shoes. To understand this thread you have to substitute @tangowaggon's highly "kinetic" approach to skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Chaletbeauroc,
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it's harder work, and the icier it gets the more harder [sic] it is,
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I think that's the point. I discovered this season that it's possible to go pretty cleanly from edge to edge in hard conditions on my AMs (waist 84, radius 12, I'm quite little) but I can't do that just by 'flicking' effortlessly. I still love them though.
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| ski wrote: |
| Quote: |
fat skis can't carve"
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Of course they can...but changing the edge cleanly on fat skis? Got to be easier on skinnier ones? |
Not sure why you're focussing on this, but no, in good snow conditions I see no reason whatsoever why the edge-to-edge transition should be any easier on narrower skis.
I can make almost effortless, perfectly clean tramlines through several long, fast, full piste width, all the way round til you point uphill, carved turns on my fat ones, as I was doing as a demonstration in a lesson just a few weeks ago. This was kinda me testing out my then-new skis to see how well they performed, which is why I specifically recall it. Very well indeed, was the answer.
| Hurtle wrote: |
I discovered this season that it's possible to go pretty cleanly from edge to edge in hard conditions on my AMs (waist 84, radius 12, I'm quite little) but I can't do that just by 'flicking' effortlessly. I still love them though. |
Your use of the word 'flicking' implies something of a single sudden movement, which in any condition on any ski is almost the antithesis of clean carving. So yeah, they won't 'flick' across so easily, but I wouldn't want them to do that anyway.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Chaletbeauroc,
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Your use of the word 'flicking' implies something of a single sudden movement, which in any condition on any ski is almost the antithesis of clean carving. So yeah, they won't 'flick' across so easily, but I wouldn't want them to do that anyway.
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I was quoting another poster's word, hence the quotation marks. Feel free to substitute a better word for going speedily/effortlessly/cleanly/smoothly from edge to edge. There probably isn't a single such word, though. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Note to self: why I do never learn to stay out of BZK?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Hurtle, OK, I accept that meaning was not intended, sorry I misinterpreted it. Nevertheless, I can't see any reason why a smooth transition should be any more difficult on fat skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| ski wrote: |
| Quote: |
fat skis can't carve"
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Of course they can...but changing the edge cleanly on fat skis? Got to be easier on skinnier ones? |
Not sure why you're focussing on this, but no, in good snow conditions I see no reason whatsoever why the edge-to-edge transition should be any easier on narrower skis.
I can make almost effortless, perfectly clean tramlines through several long, fast, full piste width, all the way round til you point uphill, carved turns on my fat ones, as I was doing as a demonstration in a lesson just a few weeks ago. This was kinda me testing out my then-new skis to see how well they performed, which is why I specifically recall it. Very well indeed, was the answer.
| Hurtle wrote: |
I discovered this season that it's possible to go pretty cleanly from edge to edge in hard conditions on my AMs (waist 84, radius 12, I'm quite little) but I can't do that just by 'flicking' effortlessly. I still love them though. |
Your use of the word 'flicking' implies something of a single sudden movement, which in any condition on any ski is almost the antithesis of clean carving. So yeah, they won't 'flick' across so easily, but I wouldn't want them to do that anyway. |
Edge to edge speed would be more associated with short quick carved turns with body in fall line rather than what you are describing though would it not?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Glosterwolf, Short turns are not carved all the way round though, the edge to edge transition in them is a quick and sudden movement, with a noticeable change of ski weighting and direction.
Indeed, in the Swiss teaching system the two types of turn which BASI calls Shorts and Longs are referred to as Skidded (Déchiré) and Carved (Coupé) respectively.
I would not for a second suggest that fat skis are the ideal tools for slalom skiing, which is effectively what you're describing, but it's about a lot more than the edge transition speed.
Edit: although it's perhaps worth pointing out, apropos of much of the earlier discussions, that just because it's not a pure carved turn all the way in no way suggests that we're not still carving; just because part of the turn involves some ski rotation, some skidding, doesn't take away from the fundamentally carved shape of the rest of the turn.
So I suggest that most or all of these folk who are saying "can't carve, won't carve" are probably missing the fact that they are actually carving in most of their turns, for at least a part of them. I say again, just because you're skidding doesn't mean that you're not also carving, just not at the same time.
The 100% pure carve is actually quite rare in normal recreational skiing anyway; even for those of us who may boast about our ability to do so the gradient, width and emptiness of pistes where it's the appropriate tool for the job is actually quite limited.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
I don't think the mountings, rails or plates are going to make _that_ much difference, TBH. Yes, for precision control, faster transitions and maximum edge angles of course a narrow/race ski is going to be better, which is why I use my Head SLs or my Stoeckli GSs for normal on-piste days and teaching, but there seemed to be a view earlier in the thread that "fat skis can't carve" which is patently nonsense.
Yes, it's harder work, and the icier it gets the more harder [sic] it is, but I can carve pretty well on most stuff on my new 17m radius 120s, with no plate or rail mounting, as indeed I could on my previous 122s, although their ~26m radius obviously limited that significantly. |
I'm in violent agreement with everything you wrote here. In no way did I suggest fat skis can't carve. I just challenged the idea that they carve better than skinny skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jedster wrote: |
| I just challenged the idea that they carve better than skinny skis. |
Did anyone actually suggest that as a general rule? I think one person stated that out of his particular quiver he found the fatter skis the best for carving, but yes, to extrapolate from that into such a conclusion would be ludicrous.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
@Glosterwolf, Short turns are not carved all the way round though, the edge to edge transition in them is a quick and sudden movement, with a noticeable change of ski weighting and direction.
Indeed, in the Swiss teaching system the two types of turn which BASI calls Shorts and Longs are referred to as Skidded (Déchiré) and Carved (Coupé) respectively.
I would not for a second suggest that fat skis are the ideal tools for slalom skiing, which is effectively what you're describing, but it's about a lot more than the edge transition speed.
Edit: although it's perhaps worth pointing out, apropos of much of the earlier discussions, that just because it's not a pure carved turn all the way in no way suggests that we're not still carving; just because part of the turn involves some ski rotation, some skidding, doesn't take away from the fundamentally carved shape of the rest of the turn.
So I suggest that most or all of these folk who are saying "can't carve, won't carve" are probably missing the fact that they are actually carving in most of their turns, for at least a part of them. I say again, just because you're skidding doesn't mean that you're not also carving, just not at the same time.
The 100% pure carve is actually quite rare in normal recreational skiing anyway; even for those of us who may boast about our ability to do so the gradient, width and emptiness of pistes where it's the appropriate tool for the job is actually quite limited. |
of course with cross under short carves when you load the tails at the end of a turn and control the pop on release it is quite possible that the rotation happens when you have no or almost no snow contact and you just put the new edge back on the snow with a gentle kiss. So you go from one pure carve to another. Personally I find that a lot easier on SLs than >100m freeride skis but that might be because of my technical shortcomings.
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@swskier, looks sweet, I picked up some mint 177 deacon 76 pro black with the piston plate and xcell 16 bindings (from season before they released the master I believe) for an absolute steal a few weeks ago so im going to be looking for terrain like this to give them a blast on. Taking them to landgraaf with me to try in August but I expect I will favour the st ti's there. Looking at doing stubai at easter for family but I did a work lads trip this feb and it would be rude not to do it again, lots of 20-25 degree wide open quiet groomers would be ideal.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Glosterwolf, while I wouldn't recommend staying in Hintertux (unless you're looking at early or late season) i'd 100% recommend it for skiing. It's the perfect playground for working on your skiing.
There's a reason why in the last few weeks, BASI, IASI, the Danish and Germans are all up there training their instructors!
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| jedster wrote: |
of course with cross under short carves when you load the tails at the end of a turn and control the pop on release it is quite possible that the rotation happens when you have no or almost no snow contact and you just put the new edge back on the snow with a gentle kiss. So you go from one pure carve to another. Personally I find that a lot easier on SLs than >100m freeride skis but that might be because of my technical shortcomings. |
I know what you mean about the 'pure carve' but it's really just a question of semantics more than anything else. When I do 'carving' on a wide piste I'm looking for a smooth transition and a completely regular turn radius, which is never going to be found in short turns either. And I think that this is what the "can't carve" faction are talking about.
Your preference is your preference, but I can't help but be slightly worried about your description of 'loading the tails'. Implies that at that point in the turn your weight is too far back, so you may have something you could work on there. It's definitely not something I'd be wanting to see in a short turn exercise.
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FAQ
