 Poster: A snowHead
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My understanding is that a slide "sets up" when it ends, as it slows to a stop. The density change happens at that point.
If I'm in stuff which looks risky then I'll ride with my hand on the bag's trigger. That's partly to avoid the "failed to use safety device" post mortem, but it's also a double-check that I have the handle out, plus it helps me keep focused on the risk. It's a reminder that it's "transport" not fun. I won't be doing fancy stuff or using a camera, and I'll be looking sequentially for escape routes. That may all be fantasy, but it makes me feel better, like I might just have a chance to affect the outcome. I don't assume the airbag will help, but if I have it I may as well make sure I use it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pisteoff wrote: |
| ........I am aware that the biggest problem with airbags is non-deployment - and have heard stories of people who have been caught and tried but simply could not deploy..... |
Yes, thanks for reminding me, not only did I get caught in the slide, but I too did not pull the trigger!
It all happened so quickly, initially I thought it was just sluff going and then in a mili second the whole lot went taking my legs from under me, luckily I was at the top and was dragged into a tree, losing my ski*, whilst the whole glade went for a good 100ms.
*Postscript for those that don't know, never found my ski in the debris, three of us searching, but Ken did find another ski (ladies) which I managed to get to fit my boot. Did a few trips in the summer back up there and never found it, and for some reason, my GPS was not recording.
Ironically on FatMap Avy layers you can see more of less where it probably happened, but it's still a large area, one of only two areas in the forest that are coloured red 
Loads of people ski there, inc many SH's over the the years on Off Piste Bashes - though now no longer as it's now off limits as an area to protect the Snow Grouse etc
Dont' know how you can get pooh happens into your mnemonic 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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For anyone who doesn't have kit this is an absolute bargain atm (Black Friday) £55 delivered for a good backpack, shovel and probe - use code BF50 for 50% off. They are also offering 20% off transceivers and other kit (use code BF20)
https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/product/terrawest-core-package/
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@pisteoff, I'm 98% sure you've just committed the absolute Bruce Goodlad cardinal sin, by recommending a 240 probe hidden in that package*!
When I did the week long course run by Goodlad, Mark Diggins and others, those of us who had 240 probes were totally belittled in having them m, and like something out of a 1950's war film, where the Sergeant major goes through your pack throwing all the unnecessary shite out, so Bruce did the same with anything with a 2.4 probe!
The difference between probing with 2.4 and 3.0 is immense, hopefully I don't have to explain that!
Another discussion point 
*Just hope the shovel isn't plastic, which is what we all bought in the early years of gear
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Surely probe length is at least partially determined by conditions? I’ve only ever seen people use 240 here and been told it’s all that’s needed because the snow doesn’t get that deep, and if someone’s buried deeper (specific to Nz) than the probe can find they will likely be dead anyway.
But a point worth considering for my next overseas trip
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="pisteoff"]
| admin wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... it's behaving as a fluid and so the airbag reduces the average density of you as an object and increase your tendency to drift towards the surface. ... |
Yes - although perhaps surprisingly a different bit of physics - not floating (lower density), but particle theory. If you shake a bag of muesli the large particles will always rise to the surface ... |
Absolutely this. It's mutliphase fluid mechanics theory. You're not floating with an airbag; you're increasing your volume and particles with higher volume gravitate to the top of a multi-phase flow. I want to be on top when it settles; not beneath.
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@Weathercam, gosh, that sounds surprising. Bruce has never done that with me - we were told 2.4m ok (the old short probes 1.8m / 2m not so) . If you're buried that deep you are in trouble, and can you really dig someone out 2m under hard pack in time? This is back in the avoid category isn't it? (terrain traps etc)
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@hang11, average height of a person 175 - 180, in deep snow the extra 600 makes a huge difference in probing ergonomics between having to bend down to push your probe into contact sub 1000 down, and then more importantly withdraw and then push back down, if that makes sense?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Re. probes: 15 or so years ago, much less than 3m was frowned upon in BC with their snowpack...in my experience anyway. Used to be the case that longer than 240cm were relatively scarce (in UK shops anyway).
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@pisteoff, yeah the course I did was run by Bruce too and that was 2019 so not that long ago. There was no a probe vilification IIRC...having said that I couldn't possibly say how everyone else measured up, so to speak.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pisteoff, maybe he was being nice to you as you were not on a professional course, and he was making a point to the would be "pros" but no BS from me on this, twas firmly drilled into me, in a rather inpolite way that I won't forget in a hurry
And I wouldn't feckin make it up !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Slightly odd logic to only equip the pros with the best probe to find someone given that it isn't really a niche skill. The logic about probe length is sound though: you don't want to be bending down and once contact is made, you want a fair bit sticking up as a marker - digging gets very frantic.
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@Sharkymark, there was a major difference on the course as to how the Pro's were treated and the few of us who were just doing the course as punters as it were, especially those that were being assessed as would be guides.
I see that now on what to bring for the course a 3m probe is specifically mentioned
And not too sure Bruce is still involved ?
https://www.euro-avalanche.com/courses/course-description/
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You know it makes sense.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| @hang11, average height of a person 175 - 180, in deep snow the extra 600 makes a huge difference in probing ergonomics between having to bend down to push your probe into contact sub 1000 down, and then more importantly withdraw and then push back down, if that makes sense? |
Yes it does thank you ... however I wonder whether we are focussed on the wrong things? A good search will get you within 2m or so the X above the buried person won't it?. A spiral search of that region with a 2.4m probe will only take a couple of minutes max? Longer than that and the person is too deep to be alive, and you would take some time to dig them out anyway. The trauma would have killed them wouldn't it? It just feels like a corner case to me - the low hanging fruits are all about avoidance and quick rescue of moderately buried people. Its not like you are trying to do a probe search in a line like they do when an avalanche hits a piste. (when speed and eae of re-probing is an issue)
Or am I missing something I really ought to be more concerned about?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pisteoff wrote: |
Or am I missing something I really ought to be more concerned about? |
A search with a modern 3 antenna beacon will get you pretty much above the victim. People waste more time fannying around probing badly than if they just stuck a probe into the slope and started digging. Very few live recoveries below 1 meters so, as you quite rightly say, focus on the most likely scenarios.
It is like everyone worrying about multi victim searches. True multi victim searches are pretty rare so focus on one victim if you are a recreational skiers and use safe travel procedures.
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Poster: A snowHead
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If you're a patroller standing in line doing a massive search, then a long pole means you don't need to bend over, but that's not the use case for a portable probe used in emergencies.These guys back that up: "Long probes are necessary only when probing an unsurvivable deep burial and are more appropriate for patrollers and search and rescue teams." The situation is slightly different for folk likely to be involved in recovery rather than rescue.
The Canadian Avy Assoc doesn't specify probe length on their courses. Avalanche Canada note: "240 cm is the shortest standard length, and works fine where snowpacks are shallower, and for most rescues. If you recreate in deeper snowpack areas or use it for snowpack observations, consider a 320 cm probe." Typically with a "snowpack observation" you're going to dig a pit anyway, so there's that.
As AC point out, if 3.0m is good, 3.3m might be even better, depending on what you want to do with it. Clearly a choice has to be made; it's not a simple "bigger is better" thing.
This 2005 paper suggests median burial depths are a meter or less (depending on continent), so the difference between 2.4m and 3m is unlikely to be significant for a portable probe intended for emergency use.
If you look at Fig. 2. "Survival and depth of burial of completely buried avalanche victims with a burial time of ≥60 min but <24 h, Switzerland, 1997–2018." in this 2021 paper it shows no survivors at 2.4m never mind 3.0m. Or 3.3m.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pisteoff wrote: |
| ......Or am I missing something I really ought to be more concerned about?... |
The outside chance that you might end up joining a search after an incident where it is not known if any one was caught, and or survivors of a slide announce that others are still buried but were not wearing transceivers etc
One such occurrences happened last season in Serre, when the whole face of a bowl had to be searched: and unfortunately a young snowboarder was killed under the Vallons chair a few seasons back not wearing any gear.
So in my book it's always good to be ready for any eventuality, and as I mentioned earlier the greater the frequency of doing stuff the higher the chance of stuff happening.
Also part of that course was recognising how a probe felt when probing backpacks buried a meter down, plus we did the horizontal line searches but that was really down to someone burying their pack for the search scenario with their transmitter still set to search, I kid thee not
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| phil_w wrote: |
| If you look at Fig. 2. "Survival and depth of burial of completely buried avalanche victims with a burial time of ≥60 min but <24 h, Switzerland, 1997–2018." in this 2021 paper it shows no survivors at 2.4m never mind 3.0m. Or 3.3m. |
Isn’t that answering the wrong question? By which I mean: as far as I understand it, we know that the chances of survival decrease very rapidly from about fifteen minutes because that’s roughly when the oxygen in the air bubble around the head is depleted. So it’s not surprising that anyone buried for an hour is not likely to survive (& the deeper the burial, the more likely it is that the air bubble will have an unbroken seal).
Isn’t the key question whether there’s a way of reducing the time it takes to get air into people who a buried at those depths, & getting them out? In which case, I could imagine that a 3m probe might well be of value, although I don’t know in how many cases.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
@Sharkymark, there was a major difference on the course as to how the Pro's were treated and the few of us who were just doing the course as punters as it were, especially those that were being assessed as would be guides.
I see that now on what to bring for the course a 3m probe is specifically mentioned
And not too sure Bruce is still involved ?
https://www.euro-avalanche.com/courses/course-description/ |
Fair enough!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The difference in rescue use cases makes a lot of sense.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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One point not mentioned re having touring gear is the ability to back out.
Arguably the most important advantage of it - that you can reassess risk half way down a route when you can see it and easily hike back up to access a safer line.
Have to be careful about risk compensation, though you can also elect to do safer pitches to get nice snow by accepting the price is skinning out...
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Transceiver practice session for any at Pipau and interested 17:30 on Saturday - meet by reception. Let me know if interested or/and if a similar session Sunday would be helpful.
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@pisteoff,
HAT (Henrys Avalanche Talks) are now selling a couple of A7 sized cards in a plastic wallet which you can use as your aide memoire for avalanche "Prevention" and "Rescue".
These cards relate to the talks themselves.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sounds good. Anyone got them. The first card covers advice on route choice etc which sounds v good
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duplicate
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 12-12-23 18:44; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting discussion.
some anecdotes on ‘leader’ role in avi searching (fresh from my SCGB reps course)
- having 1 person to co-ordinate the others in a rescue is obviously beneficial
- its much easier if the leader is not the one buried
- the whole group benefit from the discussion around what the leader does, and what they get the others to do. (Effectively, talking through a rescue scenario).
- the leader has capacity to think/focus, whilst others execute tasks (searching / digging is stressful!)
- one of our learning points was being certain on the number of victims - leaders job to keep track so all victims accounted for, and, e.g. to re-allocate resources to ensure speedy completion.
However, I don’t ever want to have to do it for real, so avalanche _avoidance_, through both education, and application of knowledge (e.g. reading the whole avi forecast, looking at the trend, compare it to actual conditions, not just looking at the number), is, IMHO, key.
To the question of mnemonics, I’d say start with HAT, Avalanche Geeks or one of the recognised courses (SCGB reps now do American Avie Assoc level 1, which is a good grounding). Structured learning based on experience is good…. But a little knowledge can be dangerous. And regular practice at all the above.
Good thread though.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
| ... appointing a leader - I see the sense in that. It's tough though - not much point if the leader goes first because they are likely to be the one buried (Bruce Tremper says 90% of cases in his experience).... |
The heli approach to this is that "the guide", who goes first, is most at risk, so the folk following are trained to deal with that scenario. After an incident, the folk remaining standing appoint a leader on the fly. In a big heli you'll have a tail-guide as well [a role I've done a fair bit], and in that case they'll control incident response.
I've been involved in a fair few non-snow related "rescue" incidents and I think most people are shocked when something bad happens, and tend to wally around. I've encountered other groups completely failing to organize in those scenarios, and I think the appointing of someone is probably a really important way to avoid that. If you know that has to be done, it's a good early step.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Couple of extra points, and I think I might do a separate thread on phone brightness.
Good few years ago you could pretty well count on a fair-sized % of people with iPhones having no battery in cold weather, thus making their phones redundant; nowadays it's way better.
However, phone brightness, or ambient phone brightness settings can also nigh on make your phone redundant as you can't get into the feckin phone to use it!
I know this is an issue with Android phones and I'm having to discipline myself to turn off ambient brightness and turn my brightness right up so it's visible i.e can use it in bright sunlight/snow wearing Googles / sunnies.
Why do I mention this?
Just that we had it drilled into us that one person, should be told by the leader to ring for help immediately, now if that person faffs for five minutes that's valuable time lost.
And then that brings me on to the next point, following on from can't see the phone, I now have a GPS widget on my watch that I can access in 2 secs giving me my location, I also have that on my phone as an app but the widget is far easier to read & faster to access especially if you're on your phone!
I'm going to be taking some friends kids out for transceiver practice with my old kit, as they both have packs & arva kit for Xmas, but I think that they are possibly too young to understand everything, but they are shite hot skiers already and will start venturing further away even if their parents say be careful, so at least some basics might sink into a teenagers brains and having packs is also a good way to go, but not everyone is so fortuitous, or has such a paranoid Mother, who comes from riding background and knows shite happens.
But they are of the right profile to use tech on their watches & apps.
I'm going to do the full on scenario with them, after a couple of hours in the classroom, then as we can get together 8-10 people, so divide into two groups etc
I now have to have a conversation with the Pisteurs to have a chat about this to make them aware that it's happening and where I will be doing it, so as not to cause a false alarm!
Only issue looks like no fresh snow on the horizon down in this part of the world till well past Xmas, then they'll be going back to the UK in the New Year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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There’s no reception anywhere I ride, often don’t even bother taking a phone.
The drill is always to set off the plb or the inreach as soon as there’s a problem, which is probably much easier than messing around with a phone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| However, phone brightness, or ambient phone brightness settings can also nigh on make your phone redundant as you can't get into the feckin phone to use it! |
You don't need to get “in” to the phone to make an emergency call. Hold the opposing buttons for a couple of seconds, then swipe to call on an iPhone.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Scarlet, just out of curiosity have you tried that out in the sunlight?
And then once you get in the phone to make the call how can you provide exact location?
Most people don't have the local rescue number in the phone which is another detail for the classroom.
I know I'm being pedantic, though I've been looking as to how to disable the emergency button as even when phone is locked numbers still get pressed and back in the UK in the Summer it actually called 999 unbeknown to me, and it was only when I could hear a voice coming from my phone in the pocket and spoke to the person did I realise what had happened, I was so embarrassed but she said it happens all the time!?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@hang11, just out of interest what about radios, presume long range are available out there as opposed to here?
Just that I'm currently charging mine up, nothing to do with back-country but to see if I can wear mine whilst my XC instructor could talk to me similar to my instructor mates that have Bluetooth to talk to pupils out on the water.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Weathercam, Yep, I can see my screen perfectly well in bright sunlight, though I'll admit to having a fairly new, higher spec model.
I can get my location from the compass app, or alternatively I can just hit the big red button in my EU SOS app (edit: this is for Tyrol, South Tyrol and Bavaria) and it sorts out the call and location automatically.
On local rescue numbers – if you use the emergency call button in your phone, it will dial the local emergency number, so in most cases 112 (I assume, not played around with that!). Yes, there are more direct numbers, but that might take longer to find in the phone, or require a discussion about which side of the national border you're currently standing.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 18-12-23 16:17; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Weathercam,
If someone in your group is buried in an avalanche then yes you ask someone to try to contact the pisteurs or emergency services. However you don't waste time trying to do this because the emergency services or pisteurs won't get to you in the 15-20 mins that the buried person needs to be dug out from under the snow. There is no point faffing about because you can't read your phone.
The people who will potentially save the buried person are those in that person's group.
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@welshflyer, sorry but who told you that was the best MO?
If you do get to the people it's more than likely that they will require urgent medical attention / heli evac so timing is just as crucial.
That's why accepted practice is that someone calls 112 or equivalent whilst others get on with the search, an experienced non-flustered person could well do both, though all depends on severity/composition of the incident and the size of the group.
First aid to victims and evac procedures is not taught that often on your average Avy course.
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As a related tangent...
I have my phone registered with the emergency sms service in the UK. It was initially intended as a service for the deaf but it was soon realised that, as text doesn't require as strong a signal as a voice call, it could be useful in remote areas. I found out about it through a friend in the local MountainRescue team.
https://www.emergencysms.net/
Is there an emergency SMS service in the eu?
Also in the UK if your phones GPS is on, emergency services can access it. I'd imagine that might be the same elsewhere?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@adithorp, I don't believe you can (a quick search brought up this article, which says not: https://blog.clicksend.com/texting-emergency-services/ ). However, there are alternatives, like the local app we have in Tirol (EU SOS) which simplifies contacting emergency services, or some newer phones can now make emergency satellite calls.
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FAQ
