 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All,
Was looking at buying a ski touring set up. I would probably favour a more downhill set up and after doing a fair bit of research saw that Shift bindings might offer the best of both worlds, in terms of weight vs performance. I would like to get into hut to hut tours and was just seeking if Shift bindings and more free-ride oriented boots are appropriate for hut to hut type tours or should I be looking at purely Pin type bindings and a lighter set up?
Thanks for any advice and guidance
FAL
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They will certainly work but you'll be pushing a noticeable amount of additional weight uphill every stride. If you're fit and your party aren't super fast, it probably won't be that much of a big deal
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A guide I skied with in Japan stopped using shifts as he found that they had a tenancy to ice up. Perhaps where he skied was more prone to this than Europe as I don't believe that it is a widely reported problem but any suggestions of unreliability would make me very nervous about using them on a hut to hut tour. Likewise, I wouldn't want to use older Marker F10/F12s somewhere very remote due to an uncommon but known issue where a dropped knee can crack the toe piece but I have a pair of unknown vintage which I am quite happy using for lift assisted tours
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| Arno wrote: |
| They will certainly work but you'll be pushing a noticeable amount of additional weight uphill every stride. If you're fit and your party aren't super fast, it probably won't be that much of a big deal |
exactly this
I would say be honest about your fitness / pace compared to the rest of the party. If you are one of the stronger ones you'll be fine. If you think you might be struggling to keep up anyway then maybe consider hiring a lightweight set up for the trip
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@fasterafterlunch, Good PIN bindings like the ATK Raider will save you 500g over the Shifts and much nicer to tour on. Go a bit heavier on the skis and boots for more suspension on the downhill
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Really appreciate the quick replies. I had looked at the ATK Raider and that appeared at the "burlier" end of the Pin bindings. I am quite a big guy at 6'4" and erm commensurate weight so thought that Pin bindings might not be for me. Grateful for any more views and thanks once again.
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@fasterafterlunch, like you, my son is 6’4”. He doesn’t find being 12 and a half stone too much of a hindrance to the ups.
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@fasterafterlunch, I’m the wrong side of 95 kgs and the only issues I’ve had with pin bindings have been when I’ve set them up wrongly. I’ve been using them for 15+ years
Watch some Nikolae Schirmer vids on YouTube. Most of his recent ones are on pin bindings. He weighs a good bit less than me I’m sure but I think he puts a lot more force through his bindings 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fasterafterlunch wrote: |
Hi All,
Was looking at buying a ski touring set up. I would probably favour a more downhill set up and after doing a fair bit of research saw that Shift bindings might offer the best of both worlds, in terms of weight vs performance. I would like to get into hut to hut tours and was just seeking if Shift bindings and more free-ride oriented boots are appropriate for hut to hut type tours or should I be looking at purely Pin type bindings and a lighter set up?
Thanks for any advice and guidance
FAL |
Like others say, all depends on your fitness. I did hut to hut with marker duke AT bindings but I can't say it was the most enjoyable touring experience of my life. I bought ATK raiders the next year  I do think shifts should be fine if you're in decent shape but if the hut to hut trip is already a stretch on your fitness level then it will be less enjoyable
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@fasterafterlunch, now that I have got my smart back bottom (but true) answer out of the way, you need to have a word with yourself.
When one is at the end of a tour/top of a big hill, one would always favour “a more downhill set up“. And more “freeride oriented (orientated?)” boots.
But do you want to do the actual uphill on that set up? Are you physically fit enough to climb the hills you want on heavy skis and bindings. And then have enough in the tank to enjoy the ski down. And then do it again and again?
It would be easy to waste your money on a set up that turned out to be too heavy. There are plenty of posters on here that seem to be capable of multiple days of uphill on a burly outfit without a second thought. But bear in mind that 80/90% of the time on a tour is spent going uphill. If you get on some hut to hut tours you are unlikely to see any Shift bindings but your own.
BobinCH is spot on with the question as you asked.
So you need to assess where you are.
Are you a young(ish) buck with energy to burn and fantastic technique to get you down if you run out of gas? Or are you a regular guy that needs all the help you can get.
I have now struggled up a couple of hundred thousand metres touring and can think of nothing worse than doing it on hefty skis with Shift bindings. But I am old and weak. And need all the help I can get.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I wouldn't hut to hut on shifts. I wouldn't do much more than free touring on shifts. Earlier this year got caught out and ended up touring on shifts and freeride skis. The others I was out with on pins and lighter set up. Coming to the summit I was labouring badly in comparison to the others. I was yearning for my Atomic backlands and superlites. Imagine that on a hut tour everyday at the back being the slowest, holding everyone up and not as fresh the next morning because of wrong ski choice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I haven't done a hut-to-hut tour on Shifts, but I have done 3-4 trips with multiple days touring from/returning to the same hut with no problems. For all but the most recent of those trips I wasn't necessarily fitter but was definitely more conditioned/had done more touring the months prior than most of my mates, who were mostly on classic <90mm touring skis with pin bindings, which helped. What helped even more was having two splitboarders in the group though  (both fit/competant/conditioned but their bindings are similar weight and probably less efficient than Shifts).
My only issue on the most recent trip was having not been able to do any touring beforehand that season my feet were shredded/blistered on the 6km flat skate in to the first 1300 vert tour on day 1. But that's a boot/soft feet issue not binding related.
Obviously lighter pin bindings ARE a better choice for longer/multiday/high altitude tours, but I think you're talking max 10% difference really.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 19-07-23 12:45; edited 1 time in total
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@fasterafterlunch, re your size, the Freeraider goes up to DIN 16. This is higher than the max Shift DIN of 13. For a proper recommendation you would need to share some more details eg will this be your only setup that needs to cover piste skiing / freeride and touring or do you (will you) have a quiver. What is your ski level. What is your fitness level. What % of your time will you spend in resort / freeride / touring? With that info there are plenty of experienced people on here who can give you good recommendations.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
- roller ski skating at 5% incline no change in metabolic rate or gross efficiency when adding 1.5kg
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also from the study
At 12% incline, there was a significant increase in metabolic rate and a decrease in gross efficiency with added weight (P<0.001 and P = 0.002).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
- roller ski skating at 5% incline no change in metabolic rate or gross efficiency when adding 1.5kg
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also from the study
At 12% incline, there was a significant increase in metabolic rate and a decrease in gross efficiency with added weight (P<0.001 and P = 0.002). |
Yes for some reason I though the bigger incline in that study was way above normal skinning, but it's not. At 12% the changes were significant, but not huge - "distal weight only had moderate effects on G2 skating. Heart rate average was 3bpm higher, efficiency only went down about 1%. I'd argue that (from what I understand) G2 skating is likely more effected than regular ski touring by ski weight as you are picking it up each step rather than dragging it along the floor.
Again, I have no doubt lighter skis are more efficient. My question would be how much? They are certainly not a magic cure for no fitness. I'd argue ime fitness is a better predictor of climbing speed than weight of gear. Of course why not have both.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boarder2020, speaking as someone that is new to touring, and also not fit. When I did my Mountain safety back in March, this was the first time i'd ever done proper touring (walking the dog while on skis at Christmas didn't count).
First 2 days I was on Volkl Revolt 121s with Shift bindings and I was dying, really struggling, to the point I didn't think i'd make it through the week. Went a hired a pair of Elan Ripstick 88s with pure pin binding and the difference was night and day. Ok, that's quite a difference in ski and binding, but I was like a different person on the uphill.
100% being fitter would be the best option, but that wasn't available at the time, and the change in equipment made the difference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| @fasterafterlunch, re your size, the Freeraider goes up to DIN 16. This is higher than the max Shift DIN of 13. For a proper recommendation you would need to share some more details eg will this be your only setup that needs to cover piste skiing / freeride and touring or do you (will you) have a quiver. What is your ski level. What is your fitness level. What % of your time will you spend in resort / freeride / touring? With that info there are plenty of experienced people on here who can give you good recommendations. |
Thanks for the continued responses. Really helpful and really helping shaping my thinking. I have skied for a long time having learned in Scotland when I was a kid and then holidays most years. I really benefited from 2 years in Canada where I was skiing most weekends at all the Alberta resorts. I am ex military and used to race (downhill disciplines) and am, without wishing to sound boastful, pretty decent and able to get down most things off piste. Have skied Delirium Dive at Sunshine, Kicking Horse and now I am out of the military I do one sometimes 2 skiing holidays a year but all downhill focused and usually to St Anton. Fitness wise I do a lot of Scottish hillwalking with 4 trips a year doing back to back Munros but I definitely feel it in my legs at the end. I have done a winter skills course in Scotland and climbed Mera Peak in the Himalayas last year. I also mountain bike in the summer but never feel as fit as I was.
I do have my own downhill kit and ski Rossignol Sin 7 with Atomic bindings. With all the advice so far I think I am leaning to a lighter set up than I was originally thinking and something like the ATK Raider is perhaps more appropriate. Perhaps, if the bank balance allows, I sense I will need a 3rd set of skis for more FreeRide activities.
Thanks again.
FAL
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
- roller ski skating at 5% incline no change in metabolic rate or gross efficiency when adding 1.5kg
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also from the study
At 12% incline, there was a significant increase in metabolic rate and a decrease in gross efficiency with added weight (P<0.001 and P = 0.002). |
Yes for some reason I though the bigger incline in that study was way above normal skinning, but it's not. At 12% the changes were significant, but not huge - "distal weight only had moderate effects on G2 skating. Heart rate average was 3bpm higher, efficiency only went down about 1%. I'd argue that (from what I understand) G2 skating is likely more effected than regular ski touring by ski weight as you are picking it up each step rather than dragging it along the floor.
Again, I have no doubt lighter skis are more efficient. My question would be how much? They are certainly not a magic cure for no fitness. I'd argue ime fitness is a better predictor of climbing speed than weight of gear. Of course why not have both. |
Clearly the steeper and more technical things get the more the weight penalty hurts you. Having toured on setups from ridiculously heavy (think Volkl Kuros with Marker Duke 16’s) to Uber light (700g skis with 100g bindings) it is abundantly clear that skiing on a light setup makes ski touring much more enjoyable - after all its 90% up! The kit has improved massively over recent years but obviously there is still a point at which dropping weight compromises the downhill experience to an unacceptable level.
My personal experience so YMMV:
I do most of my touring now on the 1200g Volkl Rise Aboves with 280g ATK Crests and 1000g Technica Peak Carbon boots. That’s what I would take for a hut to hut trip. Light weight setup, boots have excellent range of motion, ATK bindings are super easy to step into and use, Rise Aboves ski really well for their weight.
If there are good powder conditions and consequential lines involved that I want to ski fast and with more security I take the 1500g Pagoda Tour 112’s with 350g ATK FreeRaider 14’s and 1500g Tecnica Zero-G tour Pros. Close to Freeride ski performance in 3D snow for a light weight, bombproof bindings that you can rely on, very comfortable boots with good balance between touring range of motion and stiffness/suspension for downhill performance.
I also have some 1900g Blizzard Rustler 11’s with 900g Shifts and 1800g Nordica Stryders but they mainly get lent to guests and I only really use them for skiing consequential lines in dodgy conditions which is pretty rare. As above but quite a lot more weight across the board. Skis better in hard conditions, boots more support for less rom, shifts work but are heavy, fiddly and I just prefer ATK’s. Prefer setup above in good snow but if there’s some nasty hard conditions to deal with this setup will handle them better.
The Uber lights are good for smashing out fast training laps on groomed pistes where the very stiff short carbon skis actually work ok or for ski touring races where the downhill off piste requires good skills and is mainly about survival as you get bucked all over the place and basically have no suspension so need to be very well balanced to avoid trouble.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| fasterafterlunch wrote: |
I do have my own downhill kit and ski Rossignol Sin 7 with Atomic bindings. With all the advice so far I think I am leaning to a lighter set up than I was originally thinking and something like the ATK Raider is perhaps more appropriate. Perhaps, if the bank balance allows, I sense I will need a 3rd set of skis for more FreeRide activities.
Thanks again.
FAL |
From what you’ve said I would definitely go PIN bindings and ATK is my favourite. As a big guy you may want boots and skis with a bit more support. Tecnica Zero-G Tour Pros or similar around 1500g would fit the bill. The 1800g segment usually compromises range of motion so I would be careful with that. For skis there are a load of skis in the 1200 - 1700g space that could work. Don’t sweat it over a few hundred grams here. I’d look at skis around the 85 to 95mm waist range considering your objective to do longer hut to hut tours. Ski preference is quite personal so if you have the chance to test skis on a trip that’s the best option. Otherwise there are good options from all the major brands - Volkl, Salomon, blizzard, Atomic etc where you are unlikely to go too far wrong.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| fasterafterlunch wrote: |
I do have my own downhill kit and ski Rossignol Sin 7 with Atomic bindings. With all the advice so far I think I am leaning to a lighter set up than I was originally thinking and something like the ATK Raider is perhaps more appropriate. Perhaps, if the bank balance allows, I sense I will need a 3rd set of skis for more FreeRide activities.
Thanks again.
FAL |
From what you’ve said I would definitely go PIN bindings and ATK is my favourite. As a big guy you may want boots and skis with a bit more support. Tecnica Zero-G Tour Pros or similar around 1500g would fit the bill. The 1800g segment usually compromises range of motion so I would be careful with that. For skis there are a load of skis in the 1200 - 1700g space that could work. Don’t sweat it over a few hundred grams here. I’d look at skis around the 85 to 95mm waist range considering your objective to do longer hut to hut tours. Ski preference is quite personal so if you have the chance to test skis on a trip that’s the best option. Otherwise there are good options from all the major brands - Volkl, Salomon, blizzard, Atomic etc where you are unlikely to go too far wrong. |
Good advice!
I'd echo the 85-95 range for hut to hut. Better all round tool than something wider - not just weight but uphill traverses on firm snow etc
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Welcome to the rabbit hole that is ski touring kit 
Dare I mention quiver killers now?!
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To me, as someone who has been touring for nigh on 25 years and has seen kit & trends develop hugely in that time......
I'd say above all else, fitness is the key and where possible lose the kgs around the girth, then you'll be able to go with a better ski for the downhill around the 100 mark and even on something that is not an out-and-out touring ski.
In the past, I've toured on Black Crows Atris which is not exactly a recognised touring ski, mounted with Tectons, again not purists touring binding.
Also, it might not be noticeable, but good technique is again worth a good kg or more, combine that with fitness and that's a big advantage.
Nearly all my skins are 3/4 length (no tail clips) and on wide skis again there is a weight saving over normal-length skins.
Also go light with your pack, although now touring with an avy bag along with a helmet is more mainstream now, but avy bag and helmet add kgs and some people pack so much unnecessary stuff!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| swskier wrote: |
First 2 days I was on Volkl Revolt 121s with Shift bindings and I was dying, really struggling, to the point I didn't think i'd make it through the week. Went a hired a pair of Elan Ripstick 88s with pure pin binding and the difference was night and day. Ok, that's quite a difference in ski and binding, but I was like a different person on the uphill.
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Would be interesting here to compare how much the difference between widths compared to the difference between weights/bindings.
I generally tour on a light (~1500g) 104mm ski with shifts, but was once stupid enough to do Gran Paradiso (4000 something) on 120mm DPS Lotuses with Dynafits.
That extra width makes a huuuge difference: extra energy expended holding an edge on uphill traverses the whole time and a LOT more drag from the wider skins. Then even more drag when I had to put ski crampons on due to struggling to hold the edge…
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@kitenski, ive got the backland 85s paired with superlite 2's
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Mother hucker, do you just use them as a touring ski only?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| swskier wrote: |
First 2 days I was on Volkl Revolt 121s with Shift bindings and I was dying, really struggling, to the point I didn't think i'd make it through the week. Went a hired a pair of Elan Ripstick 88s with pure pin binding and the difference was night and day. Ok, that's quite a difference in ski and binding, but I was like a different person on the uphill.
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Would be interesting here to compare how much the difference between widths compared to the difference between weights/bindings.
I generally tour on a light (~1500g) 104mm ski with shifts, but was once stupid enough to do Gran Paradiso (4000 something) on 120mm DPS Lotuses with Dynafits.
That extra width makes a huuuge difference: extra energy expended holding an edge on uphill traverses the whole time and a LOT more drag from the wider skins. Then even more drag when I had to put ski crampons on due to struggling to hold the edge… |
I think it was the weight, the width, the lot, plus being a newbie. Trying to kick turn on those was cumbersome at best, and that was killing me too.
The change of skis was a real game changer, I still have the Volkls but I'll also be looking for a lighter pair when we're out in Austria and keep the Volkls for lift assisted powder days
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You know it makes sense.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| @Mother hucker, do you just use them as a touring ski only? |
I've got Backland 85 with ATK crest 10
Really nice forgiving skis and quite a bargain with included skins. Might be a bit soft if you're 85kg+
The only negatives are that it has quite a wide shovel which can be tricky on a really narrow track and the shovel tip is awkward to scrape
Mate has the ULs - they're a useful weight saving, ski well - perhaps a hair stiffer.
I've got shifts/atris for resort based activities. Love them. Wouldn't like to do 1000m+ days with them plus a touring pack and certainly wouldn't like to carry them.
Another thing people have alluded to - the simpler tech set ups seem to be less prone to ice up and easier to clear when they do.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@kitenski, as a rule yes, but I've used them plenty in resort flying around on piste skiing bumps crud and the like. skied knee deep on them with out problems
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Poster: A snowHead
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| HammondR wrote: |
| @fasterafterlunch, like you, my son is 6’4”. He doesn’t find being 12 and a half stone too much of a hindrance to the ups. |
12.5 stone @ 6'4 is skinny!! I don't have much body fat at 6'1 & 14 stone
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@tangowaggon, you are correct and my tongue was slightly in cheek. He was a little skinny.
Body composition is a funny old thing though. I am 6 foot and between 12 stone in good shape and 12 and a half when not quite. In the run up to winter I am just in the max strength phase (a la Uphill Athlete methodology) so somewhere between the two.
I would really struggle with much more burlyness. You sound like you are more on the rugby spectrum?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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My background is similar to the OP (without the military bit) and I changed to pin bindings for skinning and I think 74mm underfoot Blizzard touring skis about 8 years ago. So liberating. I also quite enjoy piste skiing on this set up, when conditions are decent; the sweet spot is small so it is rewarding when you do it right. Like many, I have waited about 40 years to find the do it all set up, but have compromised on 3.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't have Shifts myself, but I have seen other people's Shifts freeze up on two or three occasions. This takes quite a bit of time to resolve.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| john2 wrote: |
| I don't have Shifts myself, but I have seen other people's Shifts freeze up on two or three occasions. This takes quite a bit of time to resolve. |
There is a REALLY quick de-icing solution, but it's a little more tricky for girls
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FAQ
I'm quite happy with the way time has treated me, 58, 14 stone / 90kg & still need a belt to keep a 34" waist pair of trousers up 