In the states, there is the ability to dabble before you get "serious", and without a guide. Just duck into the trees off the side
I don’t get why you need to go to the US for this?
I’ve been skiing off the side of the pistes (under 30 degrees) and on avi controlled itineraries with my kids since they were little with negligible avalanche risk. May be wrong but I don’t recall a fatal avalanche on side of piste or itinerary in the 15 years we’ve been skiing in Verbier? It’s certainly more dangerous skiing on the pistes with risk of being smashed into by someone.
So what do the thousands of French rippers I see do, they don't all go to N America & Japan, which is really a bit of a delusion.
I've seen it quite often, people go skiing, not boarding, I hasten to add as we're talking skiing here in this thread; and they go to N America and Japan send back images of them skiing knee+ deep pow and the like, and then they ski back here in Europe and can't ski the Euro fresh snow that we usually get.
I've had a couple of mates' kids call it a day as they couldn't hack the heavy snow.
You're only fooling yourselves to go and ski in N America to learning off-piste, for sure you'll have a great time in Japan etc and we've done exactly that with friends who have never skied off-piste, but they're not going to be doing that once back in the Euro Alps too often.
The picture below, Michelle a classic Trois Valleys piste skier, as you can probably make out, making it look so easy after five days, and note the lack of gear
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
BobinCH wrote:
phil_w wrote:
[, but the risk is lower there, and specifically you can ride alone with more safety there. It's a question of degree.
How is the risk lower? If you fall and injure yourself on your own in some trees who’s going to see you? And if you fall down a tree well?
There is negligible avi risk on most Euro resort side piste if it’s not avi risk 4 or 5
[, but the risk is lower there, and specifically you can ride alone with more safety there. It's a question of degree.
How is the risk lower? If you fall and injure yourself on your own in some trees who’s going to see you? And if you fall down a tree well?
There is negligible avi risk on most Euro resort side piste if it’s not avi risk 4 or 5
Negligible?
Note I said side piste as opposed to a steep, rarely skied faces under a rockband. I’m always looking for avalanche activity and just don’t see it near pistes on avi 3 days, at least in Verbier (where people go everywhere irrespective the avi risk as soon as the lifts open). Not to say it doesn’t happen but IME the risk is very low. And the patrol has to secure slopes that can slide onto pistes eg on the Tortin and Mont Gele itineraries.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
In 15 years I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve heard « whumpf » sounds and they were nowhere near the pistes. Of course avoid steep wind loaded slopes and their run out areas. But they will have been bombed nr pistes and on itineraries.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Personally I’m glad I could already ski any conditions in Europe before I forked out a considerable wad of cash to go to Canada. It’s not a cheap place to be pootling about IMV, I think if you’re already a strong skier and can ski steeps off piste and any type of snow well, it’s brilliant! There are gentle runs with powder on them like at Banff Sunshine but it’s easy to ski light snow anyway as there’s little resistance to it.
So I reckon a course/tuition in the Alps is the best bet to start with like I did. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy North America unless you’re a strong skier I’m saying if you live in the UK there are plenty of opportunities to ski the lot in the Alps and get to enjoy skiing variable snow too.
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@VolklAttivaS5, out of interest what makes you think there is more chance of light fluffy powder in NA? Certainly not my experience from a number of trips over there.
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@adithorp, moderate slopes that you can access straight from the lifts, and take you straight back to a piste rarely have slab avalanches at risk level 3 because the sheer volume of skiers prevents a weak layer from forming. This doesn't prevent wet slides so on warm sping days a little bit more knowledge is needed. I have avalanche gear and some knowledge but would happily ski between the pistes type terrain with no gear. Occasionally you do read about avalanches that scare me because they're on terrain that I think I would have judged safe, the snowboarders on Lavachet wall in Tignes a few years ago being one example. Bear in mind though that they were with a guide and about half of avalanche deaths happen with a guide despite guided groups making up a tiny percentage of those doing any kind of off piste and just having a go between the pistes starts to look safer than doing it properly, of course being with a guide or having attended courses and venturing away from 'between the pistes' stuff will generally get you better snow amd terrain
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@kitenski, you might have been unlucky possibly (was it Whistler?) and I’ve only been twice myself mind (not to Whistler) but in my experience both times the consistently colder temperatures keep the snow lighter and fluffier for longer. It could also be because the air is dryer in Alberta and the interior of BC? And just general observations I’d made when planning trips there. It is much colder than the Alps in the winter and I noticed the air felt drier. I had heard though that Whistler gets more variable conditions due to its proximity to the ocean.
Last month was a very slim snowpack in Alberta/BC compared to usual (it’s snowed a lot since so they’ve had a much better February) but even so what did come down stayed cold nice powder snow for days. Tracked out yes but still very easy to ski. I can’t say I’ve experienced the variable conditions we get in the Alps on both occasions to Canada and I think it must be to do with it staying cold there whereas here in the Alps (I’m here now) you can get some quite warm days above 5 degrees quite often and it doesn’t stay at -15 to -20 for long, those days are few and far between (again only in my experience). There will be factors like the wind and aspect of course but it’s just what I had noticed from skiing about 6-12 weeks a season in the Alps for about 16 years now. Have only done 4 weeks in Canada though.
PhilW might be able to explain more from his experience as he spends a lot of time in BC, I might have been lucky both times I went.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
OP This is my final reply to this thread as I’m off skiing for the day now! I second what others have said that you need to hone a solid technique before skiing routes/Itineraries or unmarked off piste. This is obviously best done by a mixture of instruction & practice. I strongly recommend the top groups in the normal St Anton ski school as they do some “serious” off piste with instruction. (Incidentally instructors/ex instructors often join the highest level groups as paying clients so that gives you an idea of the level of difficulty.) The price is the standard group charge but you will be tested and put into the correct group first..alternatively Warren Smith is good although dearer and with an emphasis on psychology rather pure technique..some off piste techniques (jump turns anyone) can even be practised in the off season in snow domes…good luck!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
..& finally…Bergführer led groups ”Piste to Powder” and the like are often recommended…but be aware they are guiding NOT instruction outfits & will assume you have a competent level of technique/experience off piste and, in my experience, very little instruction is given…
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Bergsteiger278, yeah agreed a guiding set up is not the answer for the OP at the moment as very little if any tuition is included.
I would recommend S4 Fieberbrunn they do good freeride groups/tuition with a ski teacher and I think they do learn to freeride groups too.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Going back to @Fridge03 and the original question, I agree with @BobinCH that spending multiple £1000's on a USA trip is complete overkill for the purposes of trying off-piste.
Off-piste isn't for everyone (and nothing wrong with that at all). Have a dabble first.
I suggest the OP shares their next skiing destination here, then there will be many suggestions of guides and ski schools who will can offer a mornings taster session (they will provide safety equipment and advise on ski type according to the conditions at the time). I don't see a need to make it any more complicated than that.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Dr John, I don't think having a dabble and seeing if you like it before planning a bigger trip is a bad idea. However, there is a learning curve. I think back to my first few days of off piste and powder (yes snowboarding not skiing so I'm sure some will say it's completely irrelevant ) and there were some struggles. So just doing 1 day, especially if conditions aren't great, might not be giving it enough chance to see if you really like it or not. No reason you couldn't do a week in Europe, but by the time you add in guides, avy equipment rental etc. might not be much cheaper!
People always say no need to go to n america Europe has itineraries. Here's the kind of faces you are skiing in bounds in BC:
I just don't see the same kind of terrain in Europe itineraries, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
As for learning in Japan or n America meaning you won't be able to ski European snow. By far the heaviest snow I've experienced is in whistler! Lots of n American skiers come to Europe and do just fine.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
boarder2020 wrote:
[
I just don't see the same kind of terrain in Europe itineraries, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
Mont Gelé. Get off the top of that lift at 3023 metres and choose your way down in any direction
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Fridge03, The transition from on piste to off piste can be very counter intuitive. Attempts at self teaching can embed bad habits and techniques which may be hard to eradicate. A course is the way to go. I would recommend those run by SCGB at Flaine (no sure about advising other SCGB courses) or Snoworks.
@BobinCH, none of the terrain in the photo is officially opened or closed though is it? So its not really comparable to the inbounds terrain listed above, where you don't have to assess for yourself whether it is safe or not. People do get killed skiing straight off the lifts in Verbier in areas similar to what you have shown:
@BobinCH, none of the terrain in the photo is officially opened or closed though is it? So its not really comparable to the inbounds terrain listed above, where you don't have to assess for yourself whether it is safe or not. People do get killed skiing straight off the lifts in Verbier in areas similar to what you have shown:
2021 may have been a bad year due to the reduction in skier compaction on the main routes
Mont Gelé is avi controlled. The lift is not opened until it is « safe ». The 2 routes down the back are marked itineraries and the front is controlled as it drops directly onto the Attelas piste, the busiest in Verbier!
Those avalanche locations in the article, Highway and Attelas couloirs are not avi controlled and they are most definitely not side of the piste! They are far from any pistes, hard to get into and you need to know where you are going.
Highway is exactly the type of steep, rocky slope that gets wind loaded from the West to be careful on an avi 3 day as you can see from the photo (and I wrote above)
The Attelas accident was particularly unfortunate. Someone released a slab cutting across to a much less popular couloir which released and dropped in on top of people in Rock’n’Roll.
In reality it should have been avi 4 that sad day.
But you don’t go in there by accident! I have only skied that couloir once as I don’t like the exposure from above that you can’t control
And even on that day you could have perfectly safely skied the sunny side of Attelas like I did on a Powder Extreme course on an avi 4 day
There is tons of safe side of the piste in Verbier eg Lac des Vaux, La Chaux, Jumbo, Attelas, La Tzoumaz, Savoleyres, Bruson trees, and everything below Ruinettes. It will be the same in Tignes, 3V, PdS etc
And re Canada, I was watching the Kicking Horse FWT stop on the Ozone face (mentioned above) last week and there was an avalanche right down the middle half way through the comp!
Maybe if you’re skiing steep inbound slopes the US setup may be “safer” but for itineraries, side of the piste or with a ski school/guide you are equally safe in Europe which is miles cheaper and easier to get to and has much better mountains (if perhaps not the consistency/quality of snow you would expect in Colorado / Utah - although this is still a lottery)
And if you really want to ski powder there is only one destination that should be on top of your list - go to Japan and book @MikePow
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
And re Canada, I was watching the Kicking Horse FWT stop on the Ozone face (mentioned above) last week and there was an avalanche right down the middle half way through the comp!
Yep, the snowpack this year is pretty dangerous. There were a few deaths in an avalanche just outside the boundary fairly recently. I suspect the face would not have opened to the public in similar conditions, of course for an international competition where people have travelled over there is additional pressure to run things, and one of the reasons avy equipment (and I think bags?) are mandatory for competitors.
You are right though, in bounds avalanches do happen. Look at the stats though and they are extremely rare. In bounds avy deaths are pretty much unheard of, which is even more impressive considering the vast majority are skiing with zero equipment. Tree wells pose a much more likely risk.
Canada is certainly a longer journey. But for a longer trip (let's say 2 weeks), I'm not sure it has to be hugely more expensive:
Flights to Calgary are about £500, lake Louise spring pass is £370. Is accomodation and food really much different to Europe? What's the price for a day with a guide at Verbier these days? £400 maybe?
I certainly don't think you *have* to go to n America to get into off piste - clearly many don't. I do think the in bounds off piste makes things a bit more simple for beginners. As with everything there are pros and cons.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@boarder2020, with all due respect to the skills of the patrol over there, there's no way I'm going down the routes you've shown without avi kit and people I trust to be able to dig me out. I've seen too many slides in supposed "safe" areas to take unnecessary risks.
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@Dr John, the one called Delirium Dive has a gate that’s patrolled and you can’t enter unless you have full avalanche kit and a partner.
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@VolklAttivaS5, very glad to hear it. The Kicking Horse pic also looks extremely loaded, with huge cornices lookers left and terrain traps below. All in all not terribly inviting.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Dr John wrote:
@VolklAttivaS5, very glad to hear it. The Kicking Horse pic also looks extremely loaded, with huge cornices lookers left and terrain traps below. All in all not terribly inviting.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dr John wrote:
@boarder2020, with all due respect to the skills of the patrol over there, there's no way I'm going down the routes you've shown without avi kit and people I trust to be able to dig me out. I've seen too many slides in supposed "safe" areas to take unnecessary risks.
They bomb, ski cut, cornice cut etc. If they think there's any danger it's closed to the public, and I'm fairly confident they edge on the side of cautiousness. Even the ski school 10 years olds are riding it, along with 1000s of others with no avy equipment. Although if you have avy kit the backside is even more fun https://snowbrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/DSCN2463.jpg
I found the couple of times I used them they lived up to their name in getting clients from piste skiing to powder. Of course they could have changed their ethos since the last time I used them.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
It is 20 years or so since I last used them. However, as far as I am aware, Piste to Powder "simply" co-ordinates access to Bergführer (who are, of course, self employed and have little marketing capacity on their own, except through word of mouth). Irrespective of the referral of clients to them from Piste to Powder, the primary remit of Bergführer remains getting those clients safely to and from agreed objectives and not giving instruction over off piste techniques to clients such as the OP. Such instruction is provided by Skilehrer (who are, of course, mostly employees of a skischool, unlike the entirely self employed Bergführer.)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I would agree that Piste to Powder probably isn’t the best choice for beginners to off piste. You need a ski teacher not a guide IMV.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) and there were some struggles. So just doing 1 day, especially if conditions aren't great, might not be giving it enough chance to see if you really like it or not. No reason you couldn't do a week in Europe, but by the time you add in guides, avy equipment rental etc. might not be much cheaper!
