 Poster: A snowHead
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Having seen some other threads about markings, steepness, and various responsibilities, is there room for another colour coding for pisted runs. e.g. black/yellow for reeeeeally hard runs or steep runs liable to icing.
I did a black in Les Menuires this year (Etele) that was an absolute doddle, and yet scared myself stupid on black (Tre) running down into La Thuile. The gap betwen the 2 was FAR greater than between an average blue and an average red.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, how about single black, double black, etc?
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IN whistler, you can pick up an unofficial guide book showing lots of runs (weell over a hundred) that aren;t named pistes - runs such as fraggle rock, ladies first and bodybag bowl (beneath disease ridge). Some of these runs are graded triple diamond black as they're pretty damn hairy, and there is a "ghost" symbol used to show ther scariest bits - e.g. there's a "scary ghost" on the quite exposed traverse into lakeside bowl at the edge of seventh heaven, although to be honest that traverse wasn;t half as pent-wettingly scary as the traverse into Sapphire bowl from the top of spaky;s ladder, which was even less scary than the entrance to sapphire!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Frosty the Snowman, a lot of resorts these days have "itinerary runs" which are generally one step up from the black runs.
Grande Couloir in L2A, Mattun Valley in St A, Triftji Bumps in Zermatt are some of the better known ones.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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All resorts could start by putting the max slope steepness % or ° as part of the run's name.
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Masque, % of what? (I've seen a few discussions on a few forums about %)
Also, do you measure the steepest pitch of the run, and how long a pitch does it need to be to count?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ah yes, double black, double black diamond, in Snowmass you name it, I've pointed at it fom the chairlift... 
Seriously, I was intrigued that they have Green, Blue and then various grades of Black over there, ie. no Red.
As a current Blue-lover, I did note that the Blues ranged from what might be steep Greens in the Three Valleys thorough to ones that made me wish I'd had a fortnight in the Caribbean instead. 
It certainly improved my skiing though, or at least numbed my fear muscle, if that's the same thing!
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Wear The Fox Hat, Grashopper, you need to understand Pi and the Fibonacci Numbers to calculate hill steepness in % 'cos you can end up with differing values . . . as you can when using °s from vertical or horizontal as the measure . . . just trying to give you a migraine.
The thought is to indicate ... in a measure that can be understood by even the thickest of Sunday hillfrog ... the maximum steepness of any part of a marked run. It can't be rocket science to develop a set of criteria to define a run's category.
It's well recognised that resorts grade to suit their marketing needs and it's obvious that snowheads has the depth of knowledge and analytical skills to develop the criteria . . . so why not a project to do just that?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It should be in degrees not percentage..................perhaps
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There should be (ideally IMO) 6 colours, they should be the same throughout the world and they should all be the same experession of steepness - in other words whether it's the steepest bit or whether it's the whole length average. That would be ideal I think - but I'm just having a very nice dream.
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easiski, I agree, and would stick to the first four and a half when skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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Stating the slope in degrees could actually be counterproductive. Most steep slopes are not as steep in degrees as many people think they are. In Europe, and yes I know there is no standard grading, red runs are usually between 25 and 32 degrees and black runs up to 40 degrees absolute maximum and often less than that.
If you don't believe me the next time you are on a steep slope, hold one ski pole vertically so that the tip is touching the snow, then place the other horizontally at the top of the first one (i.e. making a right angle) pointing in the direction of the slope. If the slope were 45 degrees the tip of the horizontal one would obviously touch the slope. You will probably find it is nowhere near it.
I doubt that that you will find a 45 degree piste anywhere. As an example the grand couloir at the top of Courchevel which is marked as a black piste on the map and is pretty steep (although I don't really think it should be classed as a piste at all) is nowhere near 45. As for Mattun and Trifti mentioned earlier in this thread, they are even less.
I'm not saying these runs are not steep in practical skiing terms, they definitely are steep, but just not as steep in terms of degrees as many think. If you were therefore to inform skiers that a black piste were 40 degrees, a lot of people could think - that sounds manageable - whereas in fact they could be letting themselves in for a lot more than they bargained for.
Off piste you can of course find even steeper slopes however we are talking about pistes in this thread.
If you ever hear people tell you that they have been down a 45 or 50 degree slope, treat their words with acution.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What puts me off doing blacks - even though I'm perfectly capable of doing most of them in half way decent conditions - is precisely this imprecision and the fact it be used to designate a "steep red" or a practically vertical wall in a narrow gully, and there's no way of knowing until it's too late. I guess the same applies to most people (except what I would call true experts). Firstly I think some sort of standardisation of a) the systems around the world and b) the gradient (average or max) to which a particular colour refers would be immensely helpful to most skiers. I also like the idea postulated in the other thread of indicating both average and maximum gradient - even an otherwise harmless shallow piste could have a short section that would cause the less experienced significant grief. Our local resort has a couple of runs marked as blue based on the average gradient but I wouldn't recommend beginners to try them (no green here of course). But how would they know?
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Poster: A snowHead
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eng_ch
I use the following system to detremine if I think i should be skiing somewhere...
a) skied with an instructor and survived - think VERY HARD and only do when conditions are very good and I feel very good and very good buddies with me
b) skied with an instructor and felt Ok but it was hard.... do in good conditions and with me feeling good - no worries
c) skied with instructor and felt relaxed and comfy - do in most conditions that I would happily ski (catch there isn't there )
ie - i use the instructor to stretch my comfort zones while I work on the technical practise part as directed for the majority of my free skiing time...
I feel this is a good use of the resources at hand....
Some friends i delegate to the same level - although they are not my formal instructors - they consist of patrollers, xc-guides, ex-instructors, friends of said instructors etc that get the idea of how you learn this stuff because they sit through enough drunken yabbering
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I posted an idea on the scogb site about 2 years ago and this is it. All runs should be graded on there steepest point x it's width and it's narrowest point x degree of steepness. Grade them one to ten no problem. The only reason this is not done is because the resorts like to make out they have something for everyone. but who's to say we  can't do it ourselves. Please no steel tape measures when the run's are open. infrared is the way to go.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 26-03-06 19:31; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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clive ward, wonder if you could link that into ski school levels if it were an official grading? Just a thought...
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eng_ch, Not a problem Grade one can you stand up with the skis on? Grade two can you move? Grade three can you move and think with skis on? Can you move where you won't to go with ski's on? Ok let's go to the piste
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 25-03-06 21:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And while we're at lets identify the green runs and cattracks that actually go uphill
Consistent grading may a nice idea but relatively pointless unless you also grade snow conditions on a daily basis. Skiing relatively easy runs in Switzerland earlier this year was far riskier to me due to ice & rocks coming through then far steeper terrain with plenty of plush new snow later in the season.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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fatbob, Yes I agree with you. But who is to say there is not a simple calculation for that grading system in the equation
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 25-03-06 22:37; edited 1 time in total
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fatbob, yesyesyes! a wee death's head on the uphill sections 
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Masque, I like the idea of using % to indicate the difficulty of a run, but perhaps the % should indicate the probability of your getting down this slope without serious injury? Alternatively one could use the british system instead i.e This slope is a 1 in 5, meaning 1 in 5 skiers who enter here require the services of the piste rescue chaps to get to the bottom.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Winterhighland, I would refuse absoutely to adopt the american system - we were doing it first!!! There are plenty of colours int he rainbow - I think double black etc is just to make it sound even harder.
I don't like the %/deg idea as it doesn't mean much to many skiers, and as richjp, has already said, most people overestimate the % or Deg of slopes they ski anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, the answer is not to regrade the runs, but to introduce a system of L plates. All skiers and boarders should be compelled to take lessons until their instructor gives them approval to tackle their first red, the L plate to be worn on the compulsory helmet. An advanced licence would be needed for blacks (another obligatory series of lessons needed first). Until trainees obtain their licences they should be restricted to the resort's blues and greens via a limited lift pass.
Once the licence has been obtained, care still needs to be taken. Pisteurs and instructors will have the right to dock points on the spot, or confiscate licences/lift passes for serious offences.
Near misses to result in two points being added. Collisions, speeding, depending on severity, up to six points. A couple of falls in quick succession, one point deducted.
Lift queue offences - anything up to a day's suspension of lift pass and two points.
Being rude to instructors - on the spot fine payable to the instructor concerned. All instructors to carry breathaliser kits, random testing permitted.
Sitting down in the middle of the piste over the brow of a hill, wearing baggy pants in daylight, using boarder-speak in public, shouting and screaming around the resort until 5 in the morning - a lengthy ban, confinement in a facility for boarder rehabilitation and electric shock treatment.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Blading down the hill, barely in control, and shooting past the instructor and pupil merely inches away from hitting them, when there's 50 other metres of width that could have used - summary public execution.
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Kramer - fanging down the hill and up into the lift unloading area (can go around in 2 directions) and hitting someone unloading - impaling!
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You know it makes sense.
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That sounds really great PG. Could we have lengthy theory tests before someone is first allowed to hit the slopes, mandatory speed limits, cameras, slope-worthiness tests for equipment etc? Add in some lengthy traffic jams and we could make skiing feel like people's morning commute!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Actually, combining this with another thread, let's just arm all mountain users with small arms.
"Yo, ski over my skis again, mo fo, and I will bust a cap in yo bitch ar$e!" 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Breckenridge has 5 grades; the usual N.American 4 plus blue/black. They are between blue and black (single diamond, but you'd already guessed that. They're reds, basically, but not the more difficult sort of red (but like everywhere else they're inconsistent. I suppose it's useful for intermediates; some of the single blacks, especially the unpisted tree runs, but by no means all, are quite demanding, or at least seem so if you're not used to that sort of thing.
Speaking as someone for whom the grade of a piste has relatively recently been important and still is to an extent, I favour subjective grading (that is, not just based on average or maximum steepness or some other measurable parameter), provided that it is done well (that is, the grader thinks as I do). What most (?) recreational skiers want to know is which runs they really, seriously, shouldn't attempt, or should only attempt if they're feeling at the top of their game and up for it. Obviously, factors other than steepnes are important.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Surely part of the skill required to ski down a harder run is the ability to judge whether it's skiable before you get there ?
Snow conditions will affect harder runs much more than easier ones, and, as a skiers technical ability increases, so does judgement ?
Just a thought....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Winterhighland,
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according to a table of gully and piste gradients posted yonks ago on Winterhighland the Fly Paper at Glencoe gets up to 45degrees!
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Unless someone has measured such a short section that it is the front face of a mogul I do not believe this. 
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I know my local resort (in flat old oz) has sections of nearly 90 degrees ...
they are VERY short though
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think the bad behaviour of skiers in the slope is a phenomenon mainly in France due to the density of skier per km of piste, especially in mid term breaks.
If one skis, say in a Scandinavian resort, he/she may have a difficulty to find someone to show off the bad behaviour to.
Italian resorts away from the French border seem to be more orderly. Resorts with mainly Swiss, Austrian and German skiers are also well disciplined.
Between the 8 members of self and my brother family only one had a one-hour lesson so we couldn't see the necessity of a compulsorary grading system by skiing instructors as many of us never see one in our lives. My brother's two kids do see instructors regularly but that is training for competition purposes. The grading system may be neccessary for the UK skiers as many Europeans treat skiing no different to any regular sport like cycling or swimming and would laugh off such a grading idea. Many of them learn skiing because it is a kid's daily game they play after school outside their houses.
Such grading system is as good as stone-death unless every country agrees that such need exists.
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easiski, I'm a boarder first but can strap on a pair of planks when needed to demonstrate my incompetence, but I'm really not adverse to a documented multi level ability measure for both skier and boarder. Perhaps it might lead to better knowledge of the high mountain and better manners on the run home?
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FAQ
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