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Carving - inconsistent advice

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've been looking at various videos which show how to carve on skis.

One video said to keep ALL your weight on the bottom ski. Which seems strange to me, as looking at the tramlines people produce when carving and the depth of most of the up hill grooves, I would have thought there must be some pressure on the up hill ski. Another video I've seen says to spread the weight 70% on the downhill and 30% on the uphill. And an American video I've seen says to spread the weight "evenly" between the skis. So I'm really none the wiser. Puzzled

Maybe they are all correct and the distribution of pressure depends upon how proficient you are. I have no idea.

I'm just curious to see what the consensus is on here as to the correct distribution of pressure.

Cheers
Awd
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Awdbugga, Your balance needs to be in proportion to the forces which are being generated (otherwise you fall over). Therefore there is no fixed answer as the G Forces (for want of a better term, physicists look away now) vary constantly within and between turns. I am much more outside ski dominant at higher speeds (higher forces), but never seek to have a fixed percentage of weight on either ski, at any particular point in the turn, simply to ski in balance. It's a good drill to be able to ski with 100% of weight on your outside ski (ie one-ski turns), as well as skiing more two-footed (and for developing balance, movement and edge control, being 100% on the inside ski).
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@Awdbugga, Not being funny, but investing in lessons at your level will save you a lot of time. Once you hit intermidiot level like me, then you can play around n experiment.
Having said that, put a video up of your skiing n we値l rip you apart..errr...I mean provide crucial feedback and drills to help you improve. Madeye-Smiley
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Ignore the "should" and get to feel what 100% outside and 100% inside and points in between feels like. ( you won't actually achieve 100% at either not without lifting a ski which then gives you all sorts of other issues so I wouldn't recommend it until you are with an instructor).

Once you can feel you can then start to direct yourself and start making the connection between inputs and outputs: win-win.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Awdbugga, you're not the only one being given inconsistent advice ( and I have taken instruction/lessons).
Do whatever it takes to stay upright and go the speeds and make the turns you want to make safely. Like the big boys above said wink
Whatever you do will at some point be wrong.
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Grizzler wrote:
@Awdbugga, you're not the only one being given inconsistent advice ( and I have taken instruction/lessons).

I've come to realise that some of what i thought was inconsistent advice was actually me not appreciating the different context of the task at hand (types / sizes / shapes of turn / speed / conditions etc.).
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Tubaski wrote:
Grizzler wrote:
@Awdbugga, you're not the only one being given inconsistent advice ( and I have taken instruction/lessons).

I've come to realise that some of what i thought was inconsistent advice was actually me not appreciating the different context of the task at hand (types / sizes / shapes of turn / speed / conditions etc.).
This is very true. The answer to many ski technique questions often starts with "it depends..."
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Quote:

Do whatever it takes to stay upright

It's that simple? Why do I keep shelling out for lessons with rob@rar and skimottaret then? Laughing Laughing
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Hurtle wrote:
Quote:

Do whatever it takes to stay upright

It's that simple? Why do I keep shelling out for lessons with rob@rar and skimottaret then? Laughing Laughing

Schoolgirl crush?
Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Hurtle wrote:
Quote:

Do whatever it takes to stay upright

It's that simple? Why do I keep shelling out for lessons with rob@rar and skimottaret then? Laughing Laughing
It depends on what you mean by upright...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Didn't take long for this thread to go downhill
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
70/30 or 80/20 was the standard recommendation when I was learning. Sure there are times when you might be closer to 50/50 or 100/0 but lets not complicate it for someone trying to learn the skill.
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ALQ wrote:
@Awdbugga, Not being funny, but investing in lessons at your level will save you a lot of time. Once you hit intermidiot level like me, then you can play around n experiment.
Having said that, put a video up of your skiing n we値l rip you apart..errr...I mean provide crucial feedback and drills to help you improve. Madeye-Smiley


I am looking to have a half day one to one lesson before the next BB. As for me putting up a video of me skiing; what, and get all the grief that Franz Clammer endured! Shocked I don't think so. wink
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You know it makes sense.
Sarge McSarge wrote:
Didn't take long for this thread to go downhill
We like to go downhill fast.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Awdbugga wrote:
ALQ wrote:
@Awdbugga, Not being funny, but investing in lessons at your level will save you a lot of time. Once you hit intermidiot level like me, then you can play around n experiment.
Having said that, put a video up of your skiing n we値l rip you apart..errr...I mean provide crucial feedback and drills to help you improve. Madeye-Smiley


I am looking to have a half day one to one lesson before the next BB. As for me putting up a video of me skiing; what, and get all the grief that Franz Clammer endured! Shocked I don't think so. wink


No pain, no gain.
He's so good now, he's beyond BASI (and posting on here to us mere mortals) and making up his own levels on the mega mogul fields of the ice planet HOTH.

If you can afford 2 of those lessons, with plenty of practice in between, even better. Getting the fundamentals right is worth its weight in italian cake.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Awdbugga, It's as Rob says, every carve is a balancing act and not just uphill and downhill weighting. Are you in the backseat, driving, or just a passenger? Are you inclining (leaning with a straight bodyline) or angulating (breaking at your waist) to put more edge into the surface and mass/force into those edges? So much crap to get your head around Sad
Body posture, position over your feet to be in a relaxed and balanced condition and being able to maintain that, is really imperative to get absolutely consistent in your normal non-carving turns before you start fretting too much over your technical carving skills. Good instruction will have you running drills to hardwire your body awareness and bio-mechanical feedback before you really get into developing your carving, again as Rob points out you should be able to vary your ski weighting from uphill to downhill and back again throughout the turn (that's sort of putting it to the extreme but a useful recovery skill).

The two fundamental secrets are 'relax and absorb' . . . staying loose muscled with controlled response to terrain change will allow you to stay in balance, keep your edges engaged and make weighting changes as needed.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
We need NeddySkiGoon in here coz he knows your level of skiing (I only saw you ski v briefly last year).

Carving is generally fast and you can end up in a heap (or off the side of Marmolada) quite quickly if you lose control/balance. TBH, it痴 not that difficult to do with modern skis, but it might be wise to think about carving after this season for safety reasons.

How about focusing on parallel side-slipping (falling leaf drill on YouTube) and doing really nice controlled short turns before thinking about carving?

Just my opinion, which I知 sure you値l completely ignore Laughing
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Get yer teeth into this...


http://youtube.com/v/M4_HZfGTunw


http://youtube.com/v/ya9utfEz6sA
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ALQ wrote:
We need NeddySkiGoon in here coz he knows your level of skiing (I only saw you ski v briefly last year).

Carving is generally fast and you can end up in a heap (or off the side of Marmolada) quite quickly if you lose control/balance. TBH, it痴 not that difficult to do with modern skis, but it might be wise to think about carving after this season for safety reasons.

How about focusing on parallel side-slipping (falling leaf drill on YouTube) and doing really nice controlled short turns before thinking about carving?

Just my opinion, which I知 sure you値l completely ignore Laughing


I've changed my style of skiing completely since @Neddyskigoon saw me in Arabba. I used to plant my poles hard, twist my upper body and almost do hockey stops around them on anything steep; sometimes ending up facing uphill, as a result. I don't do any of that anymore. Having bruised ribs and a torn triceps muscle at the BB, has made me change my style completely; through necessity. I'm far less "frenetic" now.

I guessed I'd probably be told I shouldn't be thinking about carving yet. I was just curious, having watched numerous skiing technique videos, some about carving; that there was differing advice about weight distribution.

If I was ever to try carving out on a mountain, it would be on a nice wide blue; certainly not Marmoloda. Shocked
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ALQ wrote:
Get yer teeth into this...


http://youtube.com/v/M4_HZfGTunw


http://youtube.com/v/ya9utfEz6sA


Watched them all, numerous times. I still watch them on a regular basis. Great set of videos.
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Awdbugga wrote:
I've changed my style of skiing completely since @Neddyskigoon saw me in Arabba. I used to plant my poles hard, twist my upper body and almost do hockey stops around them on anything steep; sometimes ending up facing uphill, as a result. I don't do any of that anymore. Having bruised ribs and a torn triceps muscle at the BB, has made me change my style completely; through necessity. I'm far less "frenetic" now.
Not uncommon for people new to skiing, especially when they do not, as yet, have the skills in place to deal with terrain which is steep for them.

Awdbugga wrote:
I guessed I'd probably be told I shouldn't be thinking about carving yet.
I don't agree with that. For some people there is a misconception that carving is some sort of pinnacle of skiing, demanding its own set of skills if you are to leave the those railroad tracks behind you and ski at the speed of light. I don't think that's true. Carving uses the same set of fundamental skills as creating any kind of turn, it's just that the blend of the different movements needs to be suitable to creating a clean transition between turns and to manage the shape of the turn primarily by tipping the skis on to their edges. So while new skiers might not yet be ready to cope with the high speeds and high forces of cleanly linked carved turns, all skiers from the earliest stages of their development should acquire the skills of managing the transition between turns and the ability to vary the blend of the different ways in which skis are steered around a curve to create a turn. Carving is not "special", but it is something that lots of skiers struggle to do cleanly.
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@Awdbugga, As above, it depends. I learned to ride a motorbike very quickly for two decades before I strapped on some planks. It is difficult to explain but it comes down to a feeling of grip. I have been told that I have either too much or all my weight on the inside ski and that I incline rather than angulate. I can get my elbow down on a bike or skis and I enjoy it so I wouldn't stress too much about what is correct unless you are training for a World Cup race. Build confidence and get a feeling for the grip available. More confidence does actually lead to more grip and it won't be related to an exact weight distribution. You can just feel which ski is biting and you put a bit more on that one.


(I'm getting my nomex on now Laughing Laughing )
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@Awdbugga, Good stuff! I just remember you tipped forward n poling for turns, hence my concern. Salute to neddy n the fairy for sticking by you. snowHead

But since @rob@rar has given the all clear, I値l show you how on a wide blue. You値l lurrrve it and soon feel the need, the need for speed Madeye-Smiley


(You know how to stop, right?)
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Thornyhill wrote:
... and get a feeling for the grip available. More confidence does actually lead to more grip and it won't be related to an exact weight distribution...


The key!
You値l feel it yourself almost naturally once you get the hang of it. So don稚 worry about that, just get your balance n posture right...and build up your core muscles from now...you値l need em!
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ALQ wrote:
Thornyhill wrote:
... and get a feeling for the grip available. More confidence does actually lead to more grip and it won't be related to an exact weight distribution...


The key!
You値l feel it yourself almost naturally once you get the hang of it. So don稚 worry about that, just get your balance n posture right...and build up your core muscles from now...you値l need em!
From what I see, the biggest reason why some skiers aren't able to carve linked turns is not that they can't find clean grip at some point around the turn, but they struggle to cleanly roll their skis from from edge to edge as they finish one turn and start the next.
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@rob@rar, Guilty as charged. My transitions are too quick so not often completely clean carves in the top half. I just need to concentrate a bit more n finish my turns...difficult when there痴 coffee n cake waiting for me at the bottom. Madeye-Smiley
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ALQ wrote:
@rob@rar, Guilty as charged. My transitions are too quick so not often completely clean carves in the top half. I just need to concentrate a bit more n finish my turns...difficult when there痴 coffee n cake waiting for me at the bottom. Madeye-Smiley
The difficulty with not getting a clean transition is that the skis don't grip until much later in the turn, so there is no time to then build up a big edge angle, so you have far less control of speed and line. And, by definition, you're not carving, if that's your aim. When I'm teaching carving I start with isolating the skills required to roll the skis cleanly on to their edges without any twisting or skidding, sometimes not even attempting to link turns just working on cleanly engaging the edges. Once that can be done cleanly and consistently it provides the basis for managing the rest of the turn so you can influence the path the skis take rather than just parking on a set edge angle and riding around the turn as a bit of a passenger.
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ALQ wrote:
@Awdbugga, Good stuff! I just remember you tipped forward n poling for turns, hence my concern. Salute to neddy n the fairy for sticking by you. snowHead

But since @rob@rar has given the all clear, I値l show you how on a wide blue. You値l lurrrve it and soon feel the need, the need for speed Madeye-Smiley


(You know how to stop, right?)


I already feel the need for speed (I used to own a motorbike.) My eyes used to light up at the BB when @neddyskigoon said "Let it go as early as you can on this run and straight line it, otherwise you'll have a long pole along the flat". And yes, I know, any fool can go fast in a straight line. Learning to ski properly in a controlled manner is far more important. But it is a lovely feeling going fast. Toofy Grin

And yes, I know how to stop. Aim for the fattest skier who is close to you, to be sure of a soft landing. Twisted Evil
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
OK, the general consensus seems to be, don't get fixated on percentages of weight distribution, maintain good balance and go with the flow; adjusting weight distribution and edging angles accordingly. Sounds easy enough. wink "Feel the force Luke".
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Awdbugga wrote:
OK, the general consensus seems to be, don't get fixated on percentages of weight distribution, maintain good balance and go with the flow; adjusting weight distribution and edging angles accordingly. Sounds easy enough. wink "Feel the force Luke".
You've missed the most important part - finish each turn and begin the next one by rolling from one set of edges to the other set, without twisting your skis or pushing them sideways. That's the hardest part.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
Awdbugga wrote:
OK, the general consensus seems to be, don't get fixated on percentages of weight distribution, maintain good balance and go with the flow; adjusting weight distribution and edging angles accordingly. Sounds easy enough. wink "Feel the force Luke".


You've missed the most important part - finish each turn and begin the next one by rolling from one set of edges to the other set, without twisting your skis or pushing them sideways. That's the hardest part.


I've already found that out. I've been having a dabble at carving in the CFE. Switching from one edge to another smoothly is the most difficult part. Once on edge I can carve round to the left reasonably well; but because my left leg is weaker than my right (through years of playing football and rugby) I tend to skid more when turning right and my left hand ski is the down hill ski. But I've seen some exercises to do on a tuitional video on YouTube; specifically to help with that problem.

What helps now is that I don't worry about spending time in the fall line, like I used to.

I'll get there. It's all good fun.
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Awdbugga wrote:
It's all good fun.
This Happy
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During my training we were heavily encouraged to never offer percentages or numbers in concern with weighting the skis. Mainly because (as discussed in this thread) there are so many options and variables. In lessons we offer feedback of 'more' or 'less' etc... but would never say 'during that type of turn you should be weighting 80% downhill and 20% on the uphill...' it's pretty much frowned upon.

It gets fun when you start skiing and carving on just the one ski!... That one really does require a 100% weighting of the uphill ski wink
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I highly doubt unless you lay down power like a monster that you have enough space or speed in a fridge to do linked carves properly. Personally I'd concentrate on getting them right on one side each lap.
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Awdbugga wrote:
...
And yes, I know how to stop. Aim for the fattest skier who is close to you, to be sure of a soft landing. Twisted Evil


Oi!! Shocked
Remind me to ski BEHIND you from now on!!
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rob@rar wrote:
...so you can influence the path the skis take rather than just parking on a set edge angle and riding around the turn as a bit of a passenger.


Shocked
Blimmin cctv-nano-drones are everywhere these days! Time for a lesson me thinks.
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we were encouraged to try wider stances on my L2, it's easier to roll the edges so I'm told, and thus born was the John Wayne skiing drill where we'd all ski down the piste with legs wide apart...
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ALQ wrote:
Blimmin cctv-nano-drones are everywhere these days!
Laughing
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Hurtle wrote:
Quote:

Do whatever it takes to stay upright

It's that simple? Why do I keep shelling out for lessons with rob@rar and skimottaret then? Laughing Laughing


Because you keep falling down. Doh!!! Happy

Oh poo-poo, you may be at the BB.... I'm in trouble Happy
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GlasgowCyclops wrote:
Because you keep falling down. Doh!!! Happy
Far more advanced than that. It's now a crash when things go wrong, not simply falling down wink
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