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Ankle eversion / foot tipping on hard packed and ice.

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Is this the key to getting grip on ice/ hard packed?

I find it helps more than anything and can really feel the weight going through the inside edge of the outside ski. This is crucial on ice to avoid slipping caused by rotary forces. The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.

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@snowheads68, I don't think you should be able to evert your ankle in well fitting ski boots...
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I think you would enjoy reading Ultimate Skiing by Ron Le Master. It discusses this point - the offset of the edges from the middle of the foot, and what skiers can do about it - at length.
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snowheads68 wrote:
The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.


Or maybe because they're as sharp as all hell and cut into the ice.

If the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski it would have been tried. Don't you think?
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@snowheads68, try better angulation.
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I really don't understand the OP and the diagram makes zero sense beyond being a statement of the bleedin obvious. Try using an ice skate in snow then tell us how well it works.
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As far as I can tell, Ankle Eversion and Ankle Inversion are just what everyone else calls rolling of the ankles. Puzzled
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Body angle, or separation in BASI language, is quite important as well. I'd say maybe you're overthinking it !
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kieranm wrote:
I think you would enjoy reading Ultimate Skiing by Ron Le Master. It discusses this point - the offset of the edges from the middle of the foot, and what skiers can do about it - at length.


Thanks, yes, I've read it. That's where I got the bit about why ice skates grip much easier on ice than skis and the importance of angulation to get the force going through the edge of the ski making it act more like a skate.

I just find that of all the different types of angulation the ankle variety seems to make the most difference.

Here's an interesting article.

http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/carving-blog/We_ski_with_the_feet_and_ankles


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 27-03-18 12:07; edited 1 time in total
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olderscot wrote:
As far as I can tell, Ankle Eversion and Ankle Inversion are just what everyone else calls rolling of the ankles. Puzzled


Not everyone else, obs.

Harold Harb and his adherents call it tipping.
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@olderscot, which shouldn't be possible in a well fitting boot...
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under a new name wrote:
@olderscot, which shouldn't be possible in a well fitting boot...


Don't you mean a tight fitting boot?

"Well fitting" is subjective.

Even the tightest fitting boot will allow a certain amount of rolling of the ankles / eversion / tipping.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 27-03-18 12:16; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.


Or maybe because they're as sharp as all hell and cut into the ice.

If the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski it would have been tried. Don't you think?


Where did I say "the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski ".
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snowheads68 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.


Or maybe because they're as sharp as all hell and cut into the ice.

If the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski it would have been tried. Don't you think?


Where did I say "the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski ".


You didn't.

But I implied from your OP that having the edge in the middle of each foot would offer increased performance over what we have currently.

Was my implication incorrect?

And if so, what's your point?
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@snowheads68, IMO a well fitting boot really shouldn't allow any lateral shin movement. It's the lateral movement of your shin that provides for edge control.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.


Or maybe because they're as sharp as all hell and cut into the ice.

If the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski it would have been tried. Don't you think?


Where did I say "the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski ".



Was my implication incorrect?

And if so, what's your point?


Yes.

My point was that angulation is the key to grip on ice and this is because it gets the downward force going through the edge of the foot and thru the inside edge of the ski as opposed to the middle. And that I think of all the types of angulation, ankle angulation is the most important and is the key to getting good grip on ice. Without it I don't feel the pressure as concentrated on the inside of my outside foot.
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Quote:

And that I think of all the types of angulation, ankle angulation is the most important and is the key to getting good grip on ice. Without it I don't feel the pressure as concentrated on the inside of my outside foot.



I don't. The most important is hip angulation with stacked frame (strong outside leg).
Similarly important is smoothness - you need to initially load the edges with delicacy so not to overpower them before you have established the right angulation.
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@snowheads68, if you are having to use ankle movement inside your boots, they're too big or not done up appropriately.

Consider also relative and leveraged forces you can apply from tilting your foot rather than tilting your shin...
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Ahh, it's ages since we've had BZK dancing on the edge of a pin. Great stuff. Very Happy
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snowheads68 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.


Or maybe because they're as sharp as all hell and cut into the ice.

If the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski it would have been tried. Don't you think?


Where did I say "the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski ".



Was my implication incorrect?

And if so, what's your point?


Yes.

My point was that angulation is the key to grip on ice and this is because it gets the downward force going through the edge of the foot and thru the inside edge of the ski as opposed to the middle. And that I think of all the types of angulation, ankle angulation is the most important and is the key to getting good grip on ice. Without it I don't feel the pressure as concentrated on the inside of my outside foot.


Thank you for the clarification.

Balance is the key to grip on ice IMHO.
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Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
snowheads68 wrote:
The reason ice skates grip is because the blade is in the middle of the foot and the weight goes through it.


Or maybe because they're as sharp as all hell and cut into the ice.

If the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski it would have been tried. Don't you think?


Where did I say "the edge was meant to be on the underside middle of the ski ".



Was my implication incorrect?

And if so, what's your point?


Yes.

My point was that angulation is the key to grip on ice and this is because it gets the downward force going through the edge of the foot and thru the inside edge of the ski as opposed to the middle. And that I think of all the types of angulation, ankle angulation is the most important and is the key to getting good grip on ice. Without it I don't feel the pressure as concentrated on the inside of my outside foot.


Thank you for the clarification.

Balance is the key to grip on ice IMHO.


My OP could have been a lot clearer with a better choice of diagram but it was the only one I could find.
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jedster wrote:
Quote:

And that I think of all the types of angulation, ankle angulation is the most important and is the key to getting good grip on ice. Without it I don't feel the pressure as concentrated on the inside of my outside foot.



I don't. The most important is hip angulation with stacked frame (strong outside leg).
Similarly important is smoothness - you need to initially load the edges with delicacy so not to overpower them before you have established the right angulation.


Doesn't hip angulation only come into play in long turns? No time to do it in medium, or certainly short turns.
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kieranm wrote:
I think you would enjoy reading Ultimate Skiing by Ron Le Master. It discusses this point - the offset of the edges from the middle of the foot, and what skiers can do about it - at length.

+1
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under a new name wrote:
@snowheads68, if you are having to use ankle movement inside your boots, they're too big or not done up appropriately.

Consider also relative and leveraged forces you can apply from tilting your foot rather than tilting your shin...


How do you tilt your shin?

Never come across that expression before.
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@under a new name, Ankle movement doesn't tilt your shin, it rotates your shin which has an effect on the alignment of the leg at the knee.
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Hurtle wrote:
Ahh, it's ages since we've had BZK dancing on the edge of a pin. Great stuff. Very Happy
with this lot that pin is the size of a scaffold pole rolling eyes

Mike pow, balance has little to do with edge grip, it's predominantly the 'perpendicular force' to the snow/ice surface generated by angulation which includes controled lateral knee movement to overcome the 'shear' force generated by gravity and the centripetal movement of the turn. Whilst wearing close fitting boots it may well feel that foot movement is possible but it is the overall change to leg and hip position that changes in response to what we feel is foot control. Ask a x-country skier about ankle mobility and edge control Twisted Evil

The obvious elephant on t'piste is the concave grind of a skate blade and its short length. I can't be 'rsed to do the maths but the difference in vector force at the point of contact between an 1.5m ski edge and a .25th skate for the same weight, speed and turn radius user is MASSIVELY to the favour of the skater.

One of the lost factors of skiing on ice is the ability to relax and absorb surface variables and maintain an even contact pressure through the edge to stay in the initial cut groove created by the leading edge. Not an issue for the skater.

My background is the 'Arts' and even I have some basic physics and when I went to school the 'transistor' was a bit newfangle . . . What are they teaching you muppets Puzzled
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snowheads68 wrote:
Doesn't hip angulation only come into play in long turns? No time to do it in medium, or certainly short turns.

Hip angulation works fine in short turns too. Watch any video of slalom skiing.
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@snowheads68, angulation is most important in short turns on steep slopes, find a slo-now vid of slalom skiing.
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@auntie masque, Your longer post isn't wrong but it doesn't explain how we get the skis to carve into the fall-line on ice. We do this by adding pressure to the ski by extending one or both legs.
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@rjs, not quite, it's how and where you control the initial edge contact point to begin cutting the (quite shallow) groove in the ice that the rest of the ski's effective edge will rest in and follow. There's another thread about 'driving the tips' . . . this falls into that. Skiing is dynamic, feeling, understanding and responding to the changing conditions under your feet is what keeps the waxy side down. 'Extending a leg' is meaningless as it is just as easy to relax and drop gently onto your outside (turn direction) ski, drag it back a little to feel pressure in your big toe and there you have it, your carve begins . . . What you do after that is your problem wink
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@auntie masque, do you carve all your turns on hard-packed snow or ice?
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@auntie masque, Your method won't work if your body is downhill from your feet, mine will.

I may be near Val Thorens in a couple of weeks, I would be happy to demonstrate.
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rob@rar wrote:
@auntie masque, do you carve all your turns on hard-packed snow or ice?
no, it depends on steepness, snow conditions and other peeps on the hill, but yes I love feeling complete edge engagement, especially when telemarking so the majority of my turns are fully engaged. Every turn begins in the same way with the turn dominant ski (outside) initialising the first edge insertion. You know as well as I that it's how much force that goes into initial movement that will initially determine if a turn is carved, skidded, tail smeared or yard sale. It's the ability to sense and adjust 'on the fly' that makes us better and safer skiers.
This thread is essentially about 'carving' since skaters rely on complete edge contact for nearly all their repertoire.
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@rjs, if your body is downhill from your feet, you're already falling, if your head is downhill from your feet you could be driving your skis hard. It'll be good fun to meet up in VT, looking forward to the eosb Toofy Grin
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auntie masque wrote:
This thread is essentially about 'carving' since skaters rely on complete edge contact for nearly all their repertoire.
Very few skiers carve on icy snow, certainly not beyond anything much steeper than a very easy blue.

As for what determines whether a turn is carved, grippy or skidded, I'd say the presence or absence of steering the ski by twisting / skidding it is by far a more important steering element than applying / resisting pressure. When teaching skiers to carve turns you don't get them to apply force at the start of the turn (by extending their legs), you teach them to only tip the ski, removing the natural tendency create a steering angle by twisting / turning the ski in to a different direction.
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Personally, I find the amount and order in which you use ankles, hips and knees in a turn, very interesting...and it's imo when you start tiptoeing into expert skiing. I think I need more lessons.
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To ski well on ice (not needed this season) sharp skis are vital, contrary to advice from racers I personally I like to minimise the pressure on the edges by sinking through the turn, sometimes called a Swiss turn, a good angle on the ski is obvious but I don’t think twiddling your ankles will be enough to achieve it.
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@rob@rar, I think we're on the same page , just different vocabulary. Every turn, no matter how performed has to have a centre of rotation, that may even be offset from the skis. But that turn 'focus' is determined by how, where and control of where we exert pressure into our skis.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Tue 27-03-18 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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@Old Fartbag, it's feet and feedback first.
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auntie masque wrote:
@Old Fartbag, it's feet and feedback first.

I agree.

You can also get power and control if you finish longer turns with a little extra Knee Angulation, but it has to be subtle.
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