Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone know the rules on employing chalet staff in France? We own a chalet in France, and my mother in law looks after the chalet and does the catering. We've been told by our French accountant we need a French employment contract to make it all legal, which sounded like a lot of paperwork. I see on the web, other companies seem to use UK contracts for UK/EU residents for their staff. Given France's onerous form filling requiremens and hefty social security contribution culture, we're keen to go for the UK model, but not sure if this is legal, or even what to do.
We're only a one chalet operation, so its pretty small scale, and I would like to avoid burocracy if possible
I also know when I did my ski seasons (albeit over 20 years ago), I had a UK contract.
HELP!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1. Your French accountant is correct.
2. 99% of UK chalet staff have UK contracts.
Make of this what you will...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hi,
stevomcd, is absolutely right - it's a huge grey area and one that both the french and uk authorities avoid looking at too closely. We don't have staff (we run the chalet ourselves) but I've worked for tour operators in the past. Because it's a grey area there are very few rules that specifically relate to this situation and until a test case goes through the courts, no-one is 100% sure where all the legalities lie. But, here's a general idea about how the larger tour operators work:
Large UK tour operators are registered as UK limited companies because the vast majority of their income is in £ sterling. They then register a "siege social" in France which gives them a SIREN and SIRET number enabling them to make official french supplier contracts and re-claim some of their TVA.
Because they are UK companies, they employ staff on UK contracts, with UK wages and then post them to france. This works in the same way as, for example, a soldier who works in Iraq but is paid in £ sterling in the UK. Staff are paid into a UK bank account with UK tax and national insurance deductions. Their contracts are governed by UK law. The basic constraints to this are:
- you have to be a uk company with the majority of your turnover, registration and staffing in the UK (TOs only count permenant staff in this - not sure if that's legal or not)
- you have to have employed the staff in the UK prior to their posting (TOs usually pay 1 day before departure plus the day of travel)
- you have to provide insurance (UK based - not carte neige), travel and living expenses in the host country
- You have to have an E101 form for each of your staff allowing them to live abroad but pay national insurance in the UK
- You have to comply with all UK laws for tax, national insurance, child support, maternity pay etc
- Staff must have the legal right to work in the UK and Europe (ie no australians on Uk working visas)
In general, if you follow what the large tour operators are doing to the letter, you are unlikely to have a major problem with the french authorities as they would go after the big companies first if they decided to crack down. If you put a post on Natives explaining that you've only got one chalet and need some help, I'm sure that someone would send you an example contract.
If you are french registered and are only intending on employing your mother-in-law then it might be worth checking with your accountant what the situation would be if you weren't paying her - I suspect that you'll find that it is considerably easier. If you then chose to offer her an annual financial gift from your own personal account in the UK because she is your mother-in-law then that would be completely seperate from the buisness and nothing to do with employment. It would mean though that she doesn't have national insurance contributions etc though. . . .
Hope that helps - and good luck!
Heather
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Snow and Sunshine, if staff have to work under UK rules, do they get at least the minimum wage?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles, that I think is a debatable point.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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They normally don't pay UK minimum as they provide accomodation, food, lift pass, ski hire etc etc in lieu.
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adie, the rules from October 2010 are spelled out here.
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From 1 October 2010, the maximum amount your employer can count towards NMW pay as an accommodation offset is:
£4.61 a day
£32.27 a week
It makes no difference whether:
your employer takes rent out of your wages
you have to pay rent to your employer after receiving your wages
your employer simply provides the accommodation as part of a package
In all cases, the accommodation offset rate is the most your employer can count towards NMW pay. |
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Other benefits in kind
As well as accommodation, there is nothing to stop your employer providing you with other ‘benefits in kind’ such as a uniform or meals. However, accommodation is the only benefit in kind whose value can be counted towards NMW pay. |
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achilles, I think they get round this because the workers are posted abroad.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hells Bells, can't see how they can have it both ways, legally. If they are paying and taxing (on behalf of HMRC) to UK rules, they are what they are.
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Also
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Working abroad
If you usually work in the UK but are temporarily working outside the UK, you are entitled to the NMW. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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achilles, exactly, but they seem to get away with daylight robbery on a regular basis. Lizzard may be better informed than me though. In fact, I think posted workers are entitled to the minimum wage in the country in which they are posted which is around 9€ per hour in France.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Another part of the grey area unfortunately, but yes, in theory UK minimum wage should apply to posted workers. The 2010 guidelines above came into force since I finished working for TOs so I don't know them that well, but there was a similar but less defined clause in the previous rules.
I think that if you look at most contracts with a fine tooth comb you'll find that some items are included such as liftpasses, ski hire etc which have a (relatively) high financial value and which aren't included on the list of things that can't be deducted (although, on the other hand, there's nothing to say that they can). The law gives examples which can't be deducted such as food, uniform or cars for work use but doesn't specify for things like liftpasses and ski hire. Most TO contracts also have a (dubiously legal) opt our clause for this and the time working regulations.
Ultimately, the only way that this will ever be decided is at the point that a test case goes through the courts. TOs work quite hard to stop this happening and routinely settle claims for things like this out of court. At the end of the day, no one works a season for the money and all of the TOs are upfront about what they pay and what they include/don't so, grey area or not, people do know what they are getting before they sign up.
When I did my first season 10 years ago I worked for a TO and including bonus, comission, holiday pay and wage I maybe earnt £90 a week. But, this was all spending money - they paid for my accom, bills, food, skis, liftpass, insurance, travel etc etc and I skiied 6 days a week. Legal or not, I had an amazing time and 10 years later I'm still living and working here, and would never discourage someone from doing a season.
Ultimately, there are a lot of better paid jobs in resort, but not many offer 6 days a week free skiing and even fewer are suitable for an unqualified, inexperienced 18 year old who doesn't speak French.
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Snow and Sunshine wrote: |
Ultimately, there are a lot of better paid jobs in resort, but not many offer 6 days a week free skiing and even fewer are suitable for an unqualified, inexperienced 18 year old who doesn't speak French. |
Not many tour operators offer six days a week free skiing either. Most of their staff are too busy.
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You know it makes sense.
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Quote: |
Ultimately, there are a lot of better paid jobs in resort, but not many offer 6 days a week free skiing and even fewer are suitable for an unqualified, inexperienced 18 year old who doesn't speak French. |
Exactly...
You get paid in ski time when doing a ski season.
Back in the day have done a couple of seasons. Once your accommodation / lift pass & flights are paid then £100 a week is plenty 'beer' money. Yup - it can be hard work, but my experience is that most seasonaires do have the opportunity to be out on the slopes 6 days a week.
Some of the best times of my life.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Snow and Sunshine, I think the problem is that 10 years on, some still aren't even paying £90 a week.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Quote: |
I think the problem is that 10 years on, some still aren't even paying £90 a week. |
Once your rent / food & lift pass is covered then £90 a week is actually a reasonable amount of disposable income. Especially once your getting seasoniare discounted beers etc. I know some chalet hosts that manage to live off their tips - and save their wages!
For sure - its hard work doing a ski season. And in monetary terms you don't get paid much, however you should be out on the slopes 6 days a week (even working for one of the big tour ops). If ski companies were forced to pay their staff an hourly rate then staff would still have the huge problem of finding affordable accommodation, which is a big expense in ski resorts.
As a rough calculation an average alpine staff member isn't far off getting paid equivalent to circa 18K/year (pro-rata).
Accommodation - £500 per month (maybe more!)
Season Ski Pass - £150 per month
Wages - £400 per month
Food - £100 per month
Insurance - £40 per month
Tips - Varies, but £100+ a week is not unknown...
Plus Ski Hire, Transport etc
Obviously you don't do ski seasons to get rich. But if your 20-something, care free, and want to ski / drink & have fun for 5 months then its not such a terrible deal ? Though as ever peoples experience will vary depending on the person, company, employer etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haggis_Trap, maybe not a terrible deal; but it looks to be an illegal one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hells Bells, very true.
My son did the winter season with MW last season and actually only had the equivalent of £50 per week paid to him. With another £50 per week held as retention and paid on completion of his season's work. Although his gross figure was around the £250 mark, then came the deductions for acommodation, ski pass etc etc.
I viewed his UK "contract" that he had to sign prior to going out and I was totally flabbergasted with the terms and conditions on offer. But could I persuade him to try something different....not a hope. This is what the larger TO thrive on and hence are able to offer so little, the youngsters just want to be out there, whatever the cost.
He did in fact have a ball and has said it was the best period of his life thus far. But wouldn't contemplate those conditions ever again.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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northantsred, and there has been threads on here already of money not being paid at the end of the season for various reasons of dubious origin
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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northantsred, he could have a pop in claiming back what he should have got.
Quote: |
Claims by workers before tribunals and courts
A worker can bring a claim before an employment tribunal (or an industrial tribunal in Northern Ireland) to recover any money which they believe they are owed as a result of not receiving the national minimum wage (NMW). Alternatively, a worker can go to a civil court to recover the money due to them. |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I suspect a Tour Operator is more likely to get clobbered by the French authorities for not paying French min wage than get into hot water in the UK. The French routinely conduct labour inspections and want to see contracts, secondment terms, copies of payslips and time sheets. They have the resources and the will to cause a stink! That said Snow and Sunshine's comments are much pretty spot on - the big companies have gone to great lengths to make themselves an unattractive test case ... and any small ones should do the same if they are not employing through the French system!
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Thank you to all so much for such a great explanations
I wonder if a chalet owner who runs a smallish chalet holiday operation in France would let me PM them about how they set up their operation, or maybe even have a chat on the phone?
Here's some of the things we can't seem to work out:-
1) Currently we're not a limited company, but I am not averse to setting one up. I'm worried about potential set up costs also, but if this is the only option then so be it.
2) We're based in Switz, and accountants here don't want to set up companies with the UK TO model. In this case, this leaves us with a dilemma, do we set up
a) UK company, aka the UK TO model
or
b) French company or some kind of French entity that is similar to a company
No accountant seems to understand this UK TO grey area!! Has anyone set up a French operation? If so, what?
3) Rules & regulations regarding chalet use
We read this link on regulations regarding regulations on Chambres d'Hotes, which we're not sure applies to chalets operations like ours, but maybe it does. Has anyone else registered their Chambre d'Hotes at the mairie?
http://www.livingfrance.com/expert-advice-legal-legal-advice-running-a-chambres-d'hotes-in-france--36906
This sounds like a lot of paperwork for no benefit, but maybe I'm missing the point somewhere?
Thanks in advance to all that have posted - we've very grateful, and a little surprised how many people have given advice...! Thank you snowheads!!
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gohuwgo, if you have a chambre d'hote it think it is a requirement to register at the Mairie. Another thing that UK chalet companies manage to avoid. And don't forget the correct category of drinks licence.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And if you look on the Lay my Hat forum, there's lots of experienced Chambre d'Hotes owners who can advise. I doubt any of them will be staffed with Uk contracted workers though.
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Quote: |
This sounds like a lot of paperwork for no benefit
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... you're already getting the hang of this operating in France lark! You've got your tax liabilities to look forward to yet ...
Others may have different intepretations but I would say that if you are based outside the UK it would be very difficult to defend having employees seconded to France - your business will have no employees or activity in the UK.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hells Bells, could be wrong but I'd suggest that there are very few companies left who haven't registered properly with the Mairie and don't hold drinks licences. There is nothing "grey" about the requirments there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have no advice to offer on employing staff in France, but on the subject of TO terms and conditions, I'd suggest that comparatively few jobs that an unskilled school leaver could get in the UK would enable him/her to keep a roof over their head, eat half reasonably and have £50 a week to spend on beer, let alone go skiing.
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Hi gohuwgo,
Our own company company Ice and Fire is a UK company operating (legally!) in France so very happy to talk you through that - just drop me an e-mail.
Quite a few of the apt owners here who rent self catered are French registered so hopefully someone else will come along who can help with that . . .
Happy planning!
Heather
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You know it makes sense.
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If you ask at the Mairie they will be able to give you the appropriate form. It is online somewhere too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, - and that would send them home to mum after 5 months able to cook, clean and speak to people from all walks of lift. How's that for on-the-job training
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Poster: A snowHead
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Will someone please tell my son that then? I need someone to cook and clean for £50 a week, but he isn't playing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Try offering him a free ski holiday in exchange for a month's worth of cooking and cleaning . . . . .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Snow and Sunshine, he already gets the ski holiday, perhaps that is the problem.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Quote: |
Try offering him a free ski holiday in exchange for a month's worth of cooking and cleaning
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Good idea - though maybe an expensive solution for you unless he does rather a lot and has a cheap holiday! Problem with kids doing holiday and Saturday jobs is that they think everything they earn is for them to spend on fun stuff so they get little feel for the cost of living. My daughter worked and saved hard for various trips she did - gap year etc - but she wasn't paying for her board and lodging! Now that she has her own (tiny) house and a baby, she is struggling, even though her OH is quite a senior teacher, on decent money, and she is working half time. They are fine, but she has a new respect for people who manage with less well paid jobs. They have one ancient vehicle - he cycles both ends of his train journey - and are careful with money. She is thrilled, for example, to have worked out a "shoe cascade" with friends with babies with different size feet, so each pair will be worn by three toddlers and use ebay for things like pushchairs.
I remember one time, when she was saving for some gap travel, and delighted with how quick the money was mounting up, mentioning how much her notional "share" of the Council Tax was - she blanched. I didn't discourage her by going on about electricity and water, rent, food, etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Snow and Sunshine wrote: |
If you are french registered and are only intending on employing your mother-in-law then it might be worth checking with your accountant what the situation would be if you weren't paying her - I suspect that you'll find that it is considerably easier. If you then chose to offer her an annual financial gift from your own personal account in the UK because she is your mother-in-law then that would be completely seperate from the buisness and nothing to do with employment. |
Forget the gift, and I think you are ok with this.
Actuallly its quite easy to get people to help you out in a chalet provided they both parties are not professionally engaged from a tax perspective.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article4543334.ece
Clearly that depends on their perspective as to whether they are undertaking a job, or swapping a free holiday in return for some chores.
My guess is, that will largely depend on the workload and from their perspective, whether you are undertaking business activities in your chalet for commercial gain from your perspective, or just lending it to friends.
Nix.
PS I am only a wiki lawyer so make up your own mind.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Would anyone mind PM'ing me an example contract from a tour operator. Being a being a one chalet operation, we don't have the luxury of having our own lawyers to pull together contracts. Feel free to remove any sensitive details - we're just after something that we can copy/paste !
Although some have reservations about the UK TO system, I'm inclined to follow the T&C's of the big tour operator, as they will have had their contracts run through lawyers.
Any help would be gratefully received.
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achilles wrote: |
Haggis_Trap, maybe not a terrible deal; but it looks to be an illegal one. |
The problem is that the law does not recognise the benefit to the individual of this situation. It is an excellent deal for the youngsters, everybody knows that (apart from Socialist Worker types).
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James the Last, it's an acceptable deal for a kiddy on a gap year who is there primarily to ski and drink. I hope you all bear this in mind when you next think of complaining about shoddy cooking/hygiene/service on your chalet holiday.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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gohuwgo wrote: |
Would anyone mind PM'ing me an example contract from a tour operator. Being a being a one chalet operation, we don't have the luxury of having our own lawyers to pull together contracts. Feel free to remove any sensitive details - we're just after something that we can copy/paste !
Although some have reservations about the UK TO system, I'm inclined to follow the T&C's of the big tour operator, as they will have had their contracts run through lawyers.
Any help would be gratefully received. |
Is that legal?
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