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Making Carved turns longer on short skis

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I spent a few days on a pair of skis about 10 cm shorter than I'm used to (163 cm Head Super Joy 2015) which were pretty fun but I found when carving I usually ended up with shorter turns than I wanted. Not unexpected given the 12.5m radius. It was certainly fun on steeper slopes where the conditions and number of piste users allowed but it got a bit annoying on the flat stuff.

It struck me that I didn't have much in the tool box to deal with it other than flattening the skis out and straight lining it or doing lots of the shorter turns on the fall line. Is it possible to lengthen the turns while keeping the edges in?
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Most modern skis respond to how far you tip them over. The more you tip the tighter the turn. To a much lesser extent the amount of pressure also impacts the turn radius. Managing pressure is a skill but if the skis are very tight radius you might be stuck. Maybe try more even distribution of weight and varing the angle.
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Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, but here is my understanding.

1. Turn radius (in a carved/mostly carved turn) is down to Edge and Pressure. At any given Edge Angle, more pressure will decrease the radius; and at any given Pressure, increasing the Edge angle will do the same.

2. The slower and more gradually/progressively you add the edge angle, or the Pressure, the longer the radius will be.

3. The point at which you release the turn will determine your speed.

4. SL type skis will feel more twitchy at speed than a GS type ski, especially when trying to go straight.

If I have misled you on anything, I'm sure someone more qualified will be along to put you right.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 17-03-17 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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@Old Fartbag, question, if you have 100% weight on outside ski, how do you increase pressure? Twisted Evil
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Straighten your outside leg?
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under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, question, if you have 100% weight on outside ski, how do you increase pressure? Twisted Evil

...by using 110%. Toofy Grin
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@Old Fartbag, when you say increase the radius do you perhaps mean increase the tightness of the turn, i.e. decrease the radius....
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Tubaski wrote:
@Old Fartbag, when you say increase the radius do you perhaps mean increase the tightness of the turn, i.e. decrease the radius....

You Sir are absolutely correct....I can only put it down to a senile moment, or Brainfart, or something... Embarassed

Am now changing it so it makes sense.
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Quote:


@Old Fartbag, question, if you have 100% weight on outside ski, how do you increase pressure?


You manage the pressure during the turn using your legs and body position. You release the pressure during the transition and apply it during the turn. Nothing too complicated or mysterious about it.
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@olderscot, I fear you are missing my point. If you already have all your weight on your ski you physically can't add any more it's an edge angle only issue... Happy
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But if you straighten your leg the force on the ski will increase won't it?
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Henwc wrote:
Is it possible to lengthen the turns while keeping the edges in?
There is a limit beyond which it is not possible to cleanly carve the turn and keep increasing the turn radius. For a turny ski like a slalom ski this limit is tighter than something like a GS ski. If you want to open up the turn radius beyond that you need to allow the ski to ski a bit by blending in some rotational steering and less edging.
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@pieman666, more leverage, not more force.
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@rob@rar, i think I have to disagree. But i'm off to watch the rugbyso haven't time to discuss at length. But I will.

I think we've discussed this before...
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Quote:

But if you straighten your leg the force on the ski will increase won't it?

No, You'll just stand up.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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@jimmjimm, The pressure on the ski will increase while you are extending your leg.
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Quote:


@pieman666, more leverage, not more force.


No. There will be more force.

Imagine you're standing still with your legs bent. The force on the ground will be your body mass times gravity (otherwise known as your body weight). Now press with your legs to move your body upwards. At this point the force on the ground will be your body weight PLUS the additional force you're applying to move (accelerate) your body upwards.
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@olderscot, yes, momentarily, but not usefully for shaping a turn.
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IMO. There is Passive Pressure and there is Active Pressure.

Passive Pressure is where you do no more than counteract Centrifugal/Centripetal Force.

Active Pressure is where you add to the pressure by pressing on the ski (like on a leg Press Machine in a Gym).

I strongly suspect, as speed gets high and you press down on the ski, it's possible to put more than your actual weight in Kg through that ski....eg. 110% Cool
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Yay Scotland!
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under a new name wrote:
@olderscot, yes, momentarily, but not usefully for shaping a turn.

You can make it last from the start of a turn until the fall line, how else do you expect to make the skis carve above the fall line ?
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@rjs, not understanding?
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under a new name wrote:
@rjs, not understanding?
Thank goodness. Please don't tell Rob or Scott, but I haven't understood most of this thread. Embarassed
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@under a new name, What don't you understand ? Several posters have described what can be done during a carved turn.

I'm sure you have been given drills to help develop this movement pattern at some point, the "long leg, short leg" one is pretty common.

OTOH, you do seem to like using skis that I would say are too long, so maybe it doesn't work for you.
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Thanks guys - it sounds like there are limited options. I was close to 50-50 on the skis and skiing very passively as to minimise pressure while still being on the edges.

I like the point about the progressive edge change and I hadn't considered this properly. I do tend to be less progressive in my edge change which comes from spending a lot of time recently working on raising the performance level of my short turns - I suspect I have subconsciously started moving my weight further inside the line of the skis earlier in my longer turns which will generate more pressure and shorter the radius. I may also be messing up my fore-aft balance a bit on the flat stuff and getting too far forward which I think will engage the front edge of the ski too much and force a shorter radius too. I will defiantly work on making the edge change more progressive in the long turns (this is starting to bring back memories from things instructors have said now...)

A more radical option would be to reduce pressure on the outside ski further by putting more than 50% weight on the inside ski but as far as I understand this would be bad (like crossing the streams for fans of the original ghostbusters film)

Again thanks for the pointers much appreciated.
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@Henwc, I have some Atomic SL11s and can do longer turns, provided I go into a different gear and slow down the speed with which I ease the edge over.
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under a new name wrote:
@Old Fartbag, question, if you have 100% weight on outside ski, how do you increase pressure? Twisted Evil


Go faster and increase the edge angle, on a flat ski you can only exert your bodyweight, as you turn, you can exert more through centripetal force. How much you can add is a function of speed, edge angle and radius of turn.
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@Old Fartbag, I've got the SL12's and it's the same, you just have to imagine you are on GS skis wink Gently tip them onto the edge and and don't let them go too far over and you can get a much longer turn.
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@rjs, haha snowHead

My current quiver ranges from 170 to 203 and I can ski them all quite happily thank you.

And I di have a pair of FIS 165 SLs that I could quite happily do super loooong carved turns and super short turns on with a little take off in the middle. But I wore them out Sad
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Scarpa wrote:
@Old Fartbag, I've got the SL12's and it's the same, you just have to imagine you are on GS skis wink Gently tip them onto the edge and and don't let them go too far over and you can get a much longer turn.

Great Skis.
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@rjs, sorry, didn't get that. It was irony wasn't it?
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@under a new name, I'm serious, get some 155cm SL skis, you are too light for 165s.

If you are "taking off" in the middle of the turn then you are not managing the pressure on the ski correctly.
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@rjs, no.

Nonsense.

BTW I over powered the wife's 155s.

The taking off is optional and deliberate.
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Two things: Thing One and Thing Two:
Thing One) In any turn the force of gravity and the turning force combine to push you around the turn on the surface of the snow, and to push down and out on the snow where the ski meets the snow. If you are going very slow and/or turning very wide there isn't much turn force and the net force is pretty much straight down. In a faster or sharper turn, for example a 3-g GS turn, the turn force is three times as much as gravity and the net force is directed at an angle. You have to have that force directed though a ski that is tipped on enough of an angle that the ski digs in and doesn't get pushed sideways out of its groove. You need to tip the skis past a "critical" angle for the ski to hold you in the turn, and that angle gets bigger the harder the turn.

Thing Two) For any given ski with a given side-cut radius being skied on a hard flat surface, the more you tip it, the smaller the radius of the curve that ski will want to cut into the surface. A 15-m ski will want to cut a 15 m - (minus) a smidgen when it is tipped the tiniest bit on edge. A 35 m ski will cut a curve with a radius the tiniest bit less than 35 m if tipped on edge the tiniest bit. But for both skis, you will have to be going extremely slow, or the ski will slide out; because of thing one, you have to tip it up past the critical angle for the speed and curve you are trying to carve. A rough equation for the radius of the curve the ski will try to carve is side-cut radius times the cosine of the tipping angle (yes it's only an approximation). The ski will carve if your tipping angle is greater or equal to the critical angle for the speed and size of the turn dialed up.

If the ski tries to dial up a turn via side-cut radius x cosine (tipping angle), and you haven't got the ski tipped past that critical angle for the speed your going and the turn you dialed up you will slide up.

So you see from the formula, you need to tip a bigger side-cut radius more to get the same dialed up turn, and tip a smaller side-cut radius less to get the same dialed-up turn. You can also see that the biggest turn you can dial up (approximately) is the side-cut radius of the ski.

Also notice, with the bigger sidecut ski, you can tip the ski up to a higher critical angle (faster) without dialing up too tight a turn to hold.
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@Ghost, As a person who is not a member of Epic, but greatly enjoys reading people's very informed opinion, I have noticed that folk on your side of the pond, often seem to like long, (unnecessarily?) complicated explanations...that has me reading them 3 or 4 times before getting close to an understanding (which may reflect on me, more than anything else).

As a case in point (which is not meant as a criticism in any way, but an observation on the different approaches), there is this statement which takes a bit of getting to grips with: "A rough equation for the radius of the curve the ski will try to carve is side-cut radius times the cosine of the tipping angle (yes it's only an approximation). The ski will carve if your tipping angle is greater or equal to the critical angle for the speed and size of the turn dialed up. "

What I am trying to ask, is whether my observation about the learning approaches on our respective sides of the Atlantic has any merit. I personally like the way BASI try to simplify things and make them easier to understand.

This wonderful clip (that I have poached from Rob), shows an instructor mischievously making my point.


http://youtube.com/v/tDnzeHxlPc4
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I see what you mean, by elucidating with technically correct specificity your BASI system symplicity is clarified by the loquacious instructor, but no. It's just me; I'm an over-educated engineer.

I'll try and simplify.
Tip skis on their left edges to go left, tip skis on their right edges to go right. Tip them enough (a lot more than most folk tip them) to carve clean arc-2-arc turns.

When skis are tipped to any given angle that's far enough to carve clean arc-2-arc turns, SL skis will carve smaller turns than GS skis, which will carve smaller turns than SG skis, which will carve smaller turns than DH skis.

At any given speed, trying to carve too small a turn will make the skis wash out.

You can't tip SL skis enough to carve a clean turn at GS speeds, because the turns they will try to make will be too small and the skis will wash out a bit instead.
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Ghost wrote:
I see what you mean, by elucidating with technically correct specificity your BASI system symplicity is clarified by the loquacious instructor, but no. It's just me; I'm an over-educated engineer.

I'll try and simplify.
Tip skis on their left edges to go left, tip skis on their right edges to go right. Tip them enough (a lot more than most folk tip them) to carve clean arc-2-arc turns.

When skis are tipped to any given angle that's far enough to carve clean arc-2-arc turns, SL skis will carve smaller turns than GS skis, which will carve smaller turns than SG skis, which will carve smaller turns than DH skis.

At any given speed, trying to carve too small a turn will make the skis wash out.

You can't tip SL skis enough to carve a clean turn at GS speeds, because the turns they will try to make will be too small and the skis will wash out a bit instead.

Thank you for your reply....and at least where the Epic Forum is concerned, it's not just you. In fact I find your posts generally understandable. I am not going to name those who I see as the culprits though.. Toofy Grin

EDIT. Just read that Epic is shutting down...and wanted to say how sorry I was to hear that. Maybe we will see more of you on here.
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@Ghost - Thanks for the detailed description it makes perfect sense and fits with my experience. The key question was answered by
Quote:

You can also see that the biggest turn you can dial up (approximately) is the side-cut radius of the ski.

I was wandering if there is any way to avoid this without washing out - from your description this sounds impossible and any longer turns will involve a certain amount of slipping
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hmmm, IMHO,

"At any given speed, trying to carve too small a turn will make the skis wash out. " with not enough edge angle, yes.

"You can't tip SL skis enough to carve a clean turn at GS speeds, because the turns they will try to make will be too small and the skis will wash out a bit instead."

I think you have that the wrong way round.

I can very easily carve super long clean turns on my SLs. Skiing an SL course on my GSs requires some skidding.
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@under a new name,

why would ski manufacturers make (non FIS piste) skis with a longer radius then?
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