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Skier dies in La Plagne

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Pruman wrote:
I've been lidless yet intact for over 40 years.


ok so can I ask : what benefit has it had to you in 49 years to have never worn a helmet?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@dp, that's over 40 years of skiing, I'm a bit older than 49.

And I don't understand the question. Normally there's a benefit in using a particular product, not in not using it Puzzled
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Quote:

ok so can I ask : what benefit has it had to you in 49 years to have never worn a helmet?

If nothing else it's probably saved him a bit of money on lids and a bit of effort in his luggage from packing.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 18-01-17 19:33; edited 1 time in total
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Yeah that's my point

Sorry 49 was a typo. Meant 40. Fat fingers on iPhone.

So my point. If there is a benefit in wearing a helmet (it might stop you cracking your skull on ice or a rock, etc) but there isn't a benefit to not wearing a helmet, then wearing one would be sensible.

So by virtue of the fact you don't, I'm asking what the benefit of not wearing one is that offsets the value of wearing it.
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@dp, other than a helmet what protective items do you wear when skiing? Back protector? Wrist guards? Padded shorts?
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swiftoid wrote:
@dp, other than a helmet what protective items do you wear when skiing? Back protector? Wrist guards? Padded shorts?


Me personally... Helmet , back protector , gloves and boots. And goggles.

I mean how many people have been skiing off piste for a long time and still wouldn't wear a transceiver on the basis that they've never been buried before?

So I'm wondering what the drawback to wearing a helmet is, that makes it worth not doing
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@dp, I'm guessing the common complaints are:

Sweaty head
'Limited vision' (type of claim from someone that hasn't actually worn a helmet)
Can't hear (again, ignores the fact that many helmets have removable ear pads)
Increases confidence so you ski more aggressively (which I think is bulls**t)
Cost
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dp wrote:
swiftoid wrote:
@dp, other than a helmet what protective items do you wear when skiing? Back protector? Wrist guards? Padded shorts?


Me personally... Helmet , back protector , gloves and boots. And goggles.

I mean how many people have been skiing off piste for a long time and still wouldn't wear a transceiver on the basis that they've never been buried before?

So I'm wondering what the drawback to wearing a helmet is, that makes it worth not doing

Maybe he just feels more comfortable and relaxed without one?
His decision and no one elses.
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Main reason i wear one is it holds my visor. Otherwise a real pain to pack.
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@T Bar, something like that.

Not sure I have the energy for the unwinable debate tonight. We're certainly through the looking glass now. Just need someone to mention Hitler and we can all go home.
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T Bar wrote:


His decision and no one elses.


Hmmm , maybe a can of worms moment, but...

Does it really affect nobody else if you choose not to wear a helmet?

If you have an accident, you're expecting ski patrol to come and find you. You're expecting mountain rescue to get involved if necessary, perhaps even a helicopter. You're taking those people away from their other duties, away from people who might also need their help.

I'm not over exaggerating and it's very much open for others thoughts; but I think that you do actually have a responsibility to others, to minimise the chances of you suffering a severe accident - even if you're the only victim - because the victim isn't the only person involved.
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Pruman wrote:
. Just need someone to mention Hitler and we can all go home.


All things considered, Hitler was a bit of a helmet.
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Pruman wrote:
Not sure I have the energy for the unwinable debate tonight.


Maybe you shouldn't have started it then Wink
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
fwiw in Trysil, Norway, ski helmets are just dished out as a matter of course and the cost is included in ski hire. Been a few times now and I've never seen anyone without one. Not sure if it's a cultural thing?
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SnoodyMcFlude wrote:
@dp, I'm guessing the common complaints are:

Sweaty head
'Limited vision' (type of claim from someone that hasn't actually worn a helmet)
Can't hear (again, ignores the fact that many helmets have removable ear pads)
Increases confidence so you ski more aggressively (which I think is bulls**t)
Cost


I didn't used to and these were really my feelings too.

Nowadays...
Vents open- no sweaty head. In fact, having numerous vents and pads allows me to control my head temperature better than before.

Eyesight... No effect. This might change helmet to helmet but mine certainly not! It also secures my goggles to my head in a manner where they can't fall off.

Can't hear ... This was my main excuse. The helmet I wore in a lesson had solid sides and was like wearing a bucket. I couldn't hear anything. My actual helmet now, I leave the earpads in, it takes 5 minutes for my ears to adjust then I get warm ears too...

Increases confidence.... Not to me. I am still equally worried about breaking my legs / spine / neck / arms / etc which the helmet does not help with.

Cost... Mine was £100. If that's too much then skiing is possibly the wrong sport for you.
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dp wrote:

I'm not over exaggerating and it's very much open for others thoughts; but I think that you do actually have a responsibility to others, to minimise the chances of you suffering a severe accident - even if you're the only victim - because the victim isn't the only person involved.


Life is not risk free, if he is attempting to reduce his risk of injury to the absolute minimum possible form any source he will avoid going on any black runs avoid any ice avoid driving to the resort because coaches are safer etc etc etc, presumably he has looked at the risks himself as an adult and decided he wouId rather spend the £50 saved on a helmet to vaccinate 5000 children in the third world saving more lives than the 1 in a million or whatever chance of saving his own in a ski accident and feels he is a bit more comfortable to boot.
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You're a laugh a minute @dp, one minute you're barging small people out of the way and the next you're concerned for the workload of the ski patrol.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Pruman, and perhaps in hindsight I was wrong to suggest you should wear a helmet, the chances of you achieving brain damage to the one single cell that's floating around in there somewhere is fairly unlikely.

You really are that boring.
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dp wrote:


Hmmm , maybe a can of worms moment, but...

Does it really affect nobody else if you choose not to wear a helmet?

If you have an accident, you're expecting ski patrol to come and find you. You're expecting mountain rescue to get involved if necessary, perhaps even a helicopter. You're taking those people away from their other duties, away from people who might also need their help.

I'm not over exaggerating and it's very much open for others thoughts; but I think that you do actually have a responsibility to others, to minimise the chances of you suffering a severe accident - even if you're the only victim - because the victim isn't the only person involved.


Following your logic you should just stop skiing. That would reduce the chances of ski patrol or mountain rescue ever having to come and find you much, much more than wearing a helmet ever will.
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dp wrote:
T Bar wrote:


His decision and no one elses.


Hmmm , maybe a can of worms moment, but...

Does it really affect nobody else if you choose not to wear a helmet?

If you have an accident, you're expecting ski patrol to come and find you. You're expecting mountain rescue to get involved if necessary, perhaps even a helicopter. You're taking those people away from their other duties, away from people who might also need their help.

I'm not over exaggerating and it's very much open for others thoughts; but I think that you do actually have a responsibility to others, to minimise the chances of you suffering a severe accident - even if you're the only victim - because the victim isn't the only person involved.


Yes you are.
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i dont wear a helmet, its a personal choice, i just feel a little bit claustrophobic wearing one, and also very uncomfortable, i did try it a few years ago, but the experiment only lasted a couple of hours. i dont think theres a winner in this debate, theres pros and cons on both sides, but i do feel if you need to wear to much protection, helmets, back pads, thigh pads, cricket pads,reinforced gloves, i dont really think your confident enough to go skiing.
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dp wrote:
@Pruman, and perhaps in hindsight I was wrong to suggest you should wear a helmet, the chances of you achieving brain damage to the one single cell that's floating around in there somewhere is fairly unlikely.

You really are that boring.


Said the keyboard warrior with the childlike humour.

What is it you'd like to see? Some kind of helmeted master race with its own special access to the rescue facilities and designated pole tapping lanes on cat tracks? Read your own words back in an upper class twit voice and you'll see how others read it.
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swiftoid wrote:
dp wrote:


Hmmm , maybe a can of worms moment, but...

Does it really affect nobody else if you choose not to wear a helmet?

If you have an accident, you're expecting ski patrol to come and find you. You're expecting mountain rescue to get involved if necessary, perhaps even a helicopter. You're taking those people away from their other duties, away from people who might also need their help.

I'm not over exaggerating and it's very much open for others thoughts; but I think that you do actually have a responsibility to others, to minimise the chances of you suffering a severe accident - even if you're the only victim - because the victim isn't the only person involved.


Following your logic you should just stop skiing. That would reduce the chances of ski patrol or mountain rescue ever having to come and find you much, much more than wearing a helmet ever will.


In that case you completely misunderstand my logic.

My logic is not that you should try to remove all risk. My logic is not to prevent mountain rescue having to work, or hospitals, or doctors. I'm not saying you shouldn't take risks. Everyone who skis takes a risk. But we all accept that the risk we take is not sufficient to offset the enjoyment we get from it.

My logic, on that point, is solely that taking the view that "if I hurt myself then that is my problem" is not true as an injury does not only affect the victim. So when people say "when I choose not to wear a helmet, that's my choice and nobody else has a right to comment"... they are not really correct because a serious injury will have implications which reach beyond their own personal needs.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Wed 18-01-17 22:51; edited 1 time in total
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Pruman wrote:
dp wrote:
@Pruman, and perhaps in hindsight I was wrong to suggest you should wear a helmet, the chances of you achieving brain damage to the one single cell that's floating around in there somewhere is fairly unlikely.

You really are that boring.


Said the keyboard warrior with the childlike humour.

What is it you'd like to see? Some kind of helmeted master race with its own special access to the rescue facilities and designated pole tapping lanes on cat tracks? Read your own words back in an upper class twit voice and you'll see how others read it.


No, I'd just like people to read what I actually write rather than responding to it in the manner of an upper class twit, so to put it.

Think about what I might have meant, rather than instantly assuming that I have meant the most stupid possible thing.

Unless you are the most stupid possible thing, which seems to be what you represent yourself as.
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dp wrote:
No, I'd just like people to read what I actually write


Sure

dp wrote:
I used to do anything to get out of the way and not cream weaker, smaller skiers. Now I have to just push them out of the way.
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Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy This thread is fun Very Happy
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Pruman wrote:
dp wrote:
No, I'd just like people to read what I actually write


Sure

dp wrote:
I used to do anything to get out of the way and not cream weaker, smaller skiers. Now I have to just push them out of the way.


Yes, and I quickly clarified the point so as to put it into the context in which it was meant.

Only you cannot accept this fact and continue to quote it word for word, out of context, until the cows come home.

Sorry SnoodyMcFlude, don't bother getting out the popcorn I'm done...
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http://youtube.com/v/EtjSTjKiIxU

I see near misses every year, this is an example caught on film where there was a collision. Practise the code, stay within your limits and be wary of others around you.
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dp wrote:


In that case you completely misunderstand my logic.

My logic is not that you should try to remove all risk. My logic is not to prevent mountain rescue having to work, or hospitals, or doctors. I'm not saying you shouldn't take risks. Everyone who skis takes a risk. But we all accept that the risk we take is not sufficient to offset the enjoyment we get from it.

My logic, on that point, is solely that taking the view that "if I hurt myself then that is my problem" is not true as an injury does not only affect the victim. So when people say "when I choose not to wear a helmet, that's my choice and nobody else has a right to comment"... they are not really correct because a serious injury will have implications which reach beyond their own personal needs.


Except the post you replied to didn't say 'if I hurt myself then that is my problem' or 'nobody else has a right to comment'. It simply stated (regarding wearing a helmet) that it was 'His decision and no one elses'. That's a statement I can't argue with. Nobody else can decide.

Now whether or not you think that not wearing a helmet introduces a level of risk you'd not be comfortable with is up to you and, yes, you're free to comment on it and argue your case. But it's still his choice. Similarly a non helmet wearing slow blue run skier might comment that anybody who goes gnarly off piste skiing (helmet wearing or not, transceiver carrying or not) is running a larger risk of hurting themselves and requiring mountain rescue or dying in an avalanche than they are.

Wearing or not wearing a helmet? Skiing that untracked couloir or not?

You said (and this is an actual quote not one I've just made up like you did above)

"you do actually have a responsibility to others, to minimise the chances of you suffering a severe accident"

You'll have to clarify that for me. Where do you draw the line (and why)?

Don't go skiing in busy weeks? More like to be clattered into by an out of control lady's front bottom.
Don't go skiing when its icy? More likely to lose an edge.
Don't go tree skiing? More likely to whack your head.
Don't go off piste? More likely to avalanche.
Don't ski in the park? More likely to hurt your testicles or land on your head.
Don't go skiing outside of a fridge? Less likely to need a helicopter if you do hurt yourself at Hemel.

People do loads of things they'd be safer not doing for the sole reason they enjoy it. Some people enjoy the feeling of the wind blowing through their hair on a sunny March afternoon as they ski down to lunch. Others enjoy trying to perfect that double backflip off the big kicker in the park. Both have decided that the risk is worth it. Their decision.
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@swiftoid, where to draw the line is hard to say, I agree with you.

I suppose you have to decide for yourself what the risk is and what the impact of that is; and whether that risk and that impact are justifiable by the reasons for taking the risks.

My personal opinion is that wearing a helmet is such a small inconvenience that the choice not to wear one does not justify the risk. But that is only my opinion others are free to disagree with that.
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@Tankerdriver, what a douchebag that skier is! And the one that comes by just before. The snowboarded is laying big, obvious and patterned turns yet they still manage to completely wipe him out. People like that should be tortured until they learn not to be such bellends.
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dp wrote:
@swiftoid, where to draw the line is hard to say, I agree with you.

I suppose you have to decide for yourself what the risk is and what the impact of that is; and whether that risk and that impact are justifiable by the reasons for taking the risks.

My personal opinion is that wearing a helmet is such a small inconvenience that the choice not to wear one does not justify the risk. But that is only my opinion others are free to disagree with that.


Aye, but what has irked some here is the passive aggressive way these things are often phrased.

Example "...The choice not to wear one does not justify the risk" written just before "....But that is only my opinion......".

Reads to me as -

"No drama mate, it's all down to personal choice - but that's not going to stop me telling you why your choice makes you seem like a dumbass putting yourself in danger and inconveniencing everyone else on the mountain. Did I mention that you are also an idiot not wearing a lid commuting to work on a bike path? But, hey, again......your choice, jeez you helmet Nazis need to take a chill pill"

Obvs a degree of artistic licence, but perhaps time to jump off that high horse?
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In my view helmets make a real but distinctly modest contribution to safety. I wear one but the idea that they are so important that everyone should out of civil responsibility is beyond silly. We have zero evidence that they reduce injury rates that significantly.

And as it happens I DO ski a bit more conservatively (e.g. Less likely to go for very high edge angles on a hard piste) when I am lidless so risk compensation is a small issue for me.
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I like to think that my accident last month helped, in a small way, to keep the rescue services in gainful employment. I can think of no higher civic responsibility. You're welcome.

wink
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@rob@rar, plus they need actual practice rather than drills in case they ever need to do a proper emergency rescue. Wink
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@Badbobby, good point! Makes me feel even more virtuous!
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^ Vid above is awesome - though doesn't look like Breck to me - skier tries to thread needle between cameraman and slow moving predictable boarder. Typical cockwomble and there are lots out there.

@rob@rar, what we really need to know is how a man with your jedi skills gets hit in the first place? Standing with your back to traffic or just mown down doing drills?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
@rob@rar, what we really need to know is how a man with your jedi skills gets hit in the first place? Standing with your back to traffic or just mown down doing drills?
To be honest, I don't have much recollection of what happened. Last thing I can remember is doing some stretches at the start of the day with the group I was training with, which would have been about 10 minutes before I was hit from behind. I was on the first of three warm up runs, so typically I would have been skiing slowly making short radius turns in a 4m ish corridor on a steep, icy red. All that week I was using either the left or right hand margin of the run, although I might have been stationary at the time. It was a bank holiday and the skiing was significantly busier than it had been earlier in the week, with lots of people skiing way too fast for the conditions and their skill level. I was aware of a lot of commotion as my kit was handed back to me and a very burly chap in a yellow jacket apologising profusely. I was very dazed and thought I was OK, but shortly after I skied off I realised I wasn't. Piste rescue were called, and they decided I needed to be airlifted to Innsbruck.
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Quote:

No, I'd just like people to read what I actually write rather than responding to it in the manner of an upper class twit, so to put it.


Yea. Its everyone else who misunderstands you eh. Do you need to clarify anything else...again



Just as stupid in real life it is then.

Yours sincerely

Another keyboard warrior
Shocked
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@dp ...I am all ears as to how a helmet *causes* an accident. ,

Whoooooosh .....

Maybe I should have put a big smiley on the post for you. I was just jokingly putting forward the traditional anti helmet line.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Thu 19-01-17 15:51; edited 1 time in total
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