 Poster: A snowHead
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| snowornever wrote: |
The UK was trading quite well with Europe before the EU was created and we joined, people went on holidays "abroad", |
Some did.
But not all that many compared to nowadays.
According to this approximately 5 million foreign holidays were taken in 1970, opposed to 26 million last year. And note that the numbers stayed pretty flat from 1960 to 1970, then started to rise much more after we joined the EU in 1973.
But having said that, I don't think we are likely to return (in the near future) to the days of an air ticket to most European destinations costing several months wages for most people, and it is cheap air travel which really fuelled the boom in foreign holidays, not very much of which is due to the EU.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The U.K's trade deficit with the EU is £88 billion p.a, £30 billion of which is with Germany alone.
13% of U.K. primary legislation is made in the U.K, over 60% of secondary legislation is made in Brussels the majority by committee and is never debated.
Immigration to the U.K currently runs at net 350,000 p.a.
These are facts. Does anyone have any other facts to add?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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> Immigration to the U.K currently runs at net 350,000 p.a.
net immigration
Immigration is around 600,000 p.a.
does this make a difference? It depends on who is coming and who is leaving.
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Up to people to make their own minds up I guess. It would just be nice to hear facts rather than bias, prejudice and moot points....and threats
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Amen @Don Keebles,
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
The U.K's trade deficit with the EU is £88 billion p.a, £30 billion of which is with Germany alone.
13% of U.K. primary legislation is made in the U.K, over 60% of secondary legislation is made in Brussels the majority by committee and is never debated.
Immigration to the U.K currently runs at net 350,000 p.a.
These are facts. Does anyone have any other facts to add? |
They are certainly not all facts.
100% of UK primary and secondary legislation is "made in the UK". No other power (including the EU) can directly make UK legislation. The EU passes directives, which then have to be incorporated into domestic law by the relevant domestic legislature.
If what you mean by "13% of U.K. primary legislation is made in the U.K." is that 87% of UK primary legislation is made in response to EU directives, that is still clearly false.
37 Acts of parliament last year http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015 of which 32 would have to be in response to EU directives for that to be correct, so only 5 could be our "own" laws. I would say it is closer to the opposite numbers, without looking in detail at each act.
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Yes, alex_heney, I am always wary of "facts" without a source reference.
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Much UK legislation is secondary.
This debate isn't going to be about facts. There's no "counterfactual" information, its all pretty well guesswork, isn't it? Even about such a trivial issue as chalet holidays.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Does the UK have input in to legislation which is initiated in Brussels? My understanding is that it does, subject to different rules about majority voting depending on the issue. Would it be fair to say that "a [to be ascertained] proportion of legislation which the UK government enacts is based on law-making shared with other EU countries"? That sounds far less scary than "Brussels imposing laws on the UK", to me at least.
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Over 75% of our laws (primary and secondary) is made in Brussels. Break it down as you wish, re-name it 'directives' if you want, but the facts speak for themselves.
'As new countries have joined, we have seen a hurried expansion in the areas for Qualified Majority Voting, so that Britain can be overruled more and more often (as has happened in the past five years). We have had not just the Maastricht Treaty, but Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon, every one of them representing an extension of EU authority and a centralisation in Brussels. According to the House of Commons library, anything between 15 and 50 per cent of UK legislation now comes from the EU; and remember that this type of legislation is very special.
It is unstoppable, and it is irreversible – since it can only be repealed by the EU itself. Ask how much EU legislation the Commission has actually taken back under its various programmes for streamlining bureaucracy. The answer is none. That is why EU law is likened to a ratchet, clicking only forwards. We are seeing a slow and invisible process of legal colonisation, as the EU infiltrates just about every area of public policy. Then – and this is the key point – the EU acquires supremacy in any field that it touches; because it is one of the planks of Britain’s membership, agreed in 1972, that any question involving the EU must go to Luxembourg, to be adjudicated by the European Court of Justice.' - Boris...if you require a 'source'.
More Europe or less Europe, you decide.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
Over 75% of our laws (primary and secondary) is made in Brussels. Break it down as you wish, re-name it 'directives' if you want, but the facts speak for themselves.
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I wouldn't pretend to understand the ins and outs, but does it matter if over 75% of laws are made in Brussels, its simply a location, surely it matters more what percentage of those laws wouldn't have been passed by the UK alone, and what percentage of those laws are actually counter productive for the UK?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If that's your view, fair enough. If it's simply a 'location' to you, crack on. Personally for me it's about accountability. I don't see an unaccountable, unelected body controlling more and more of our laws as healthy. The bedrock of any democracy for me is the ability every 5 years to remove our political leaders, or give them another go. The EU commission is appointed. The European Parliament (a building that cost over £1b) is used 12 times a year. All 55,000 EU employees got a 2% pay-rise this year, don't remember the nurses getting that?...or chalet staff haha.
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@eddiethebus, It does sort of matter. Let me rephrase the question for you. Would you mind if we abolished democracy in this country as long as we had a dictator who mostly did the things we might have done anyway?
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You know it makes sense.
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Comparing the cumbersome and ineffective Brussels rule-making institutions to a dictator is pretty unconvincing. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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'Comparing the cumbersome and ineffective Brussels rule-making institutions to a dictator is pretty unconvincing'
What would you call having laws imposed upon you with no means of recourse then?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| @eddiethebus, It does sort of matter. Let me rephrase the question for you. Would you mind if we abolished democracy in this country as long as we had a dictator who mostly did the things we might have done anyway? |
you could argue that leaving the EU would actually take us a step closer to abolishing democracy. If we have that same dictator of which you speak in place then the EU ensures that Dave (or what he might go by next) is kept on a leash...
from what i'm reading the EU are responsible for ensuring the UK have many laws in place that benefit the welfare of many working people 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On that subject, Boris has not had a good morning. Sterling down about 2%.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| snowornever wrote: |
The UK was trading quite well with Europe before the EU was created and we joined, people went on holidays "abroad", some even worked abroad pre single market, the paperwork might have been a bit more complex but it worked OK. |
My maternal grand parents lived in Franco's spain. Certainly no problem for them and not for the millions of Brits who discovered the joy of summer holidays with sun on the Costa del Sol in the 60s.
However I think the worry is the EUSSR would want to punish any country that left. Imagine if any leaving country ended up doing better outside the EU ! |
I love that!! EUSSR a good summing up of what it has become....having experienced the mind set of the EU apparatchiks I can see why they have trouble with the concept that any country might want to leave their socialist paradise
It came through in the negotiations for Daves little sop for the people, none of the other leaders believed the UK will leave, so they threw him a few crumbs to keep the populace inline.
The run up to june will be really good fun to watch!
(I'm OUT!) 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
It would just be nice to hear facts rather than bias, prejudice and moot points....and threats
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Unfortunately that's all we're likely to get from the press for the next 4 months. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
| Over 75% of our laws (primary and secondary) is made in Brussels. Break it down as you wish, re-name it 'directives' if you want, but the facts speak for themselves. |
Where does this 75% come from?
https://fullfact.org/news/what-proportion-uk-law-comes-brussels/
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/RP10-62
Coming back to the original thread. Could the chalet model be doomed because we will not longer have an automatic right to work in France?
Although I assume we would negotiate a right to live/work in the EU similar to the current Freedom of Movement. But if we did that would we not end up with the same 'issue' we have now where anyone in Europe has a right to live/work in the UK.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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'Where does this 75% come from?'
German Finance Minister. He estimated at least 83% of German laws are made in Brussels and that France and the U.K come in at around 75%
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Britain doesn't make much stuff. We make less stuff every year. Our economy is like a goldfish drinking and swimming in its own rancid urine. The services this nation depends on will all eventually get sold off out of necessity and those services are most of what we are these days. We're going to vanish up our own back bottoms. We need to be part of the EU. Jingoism doesn't come into it.
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Britain should have loads of influence in Europe; under Tony Blair, we were helping to dictate policy despite not being in the euro zone. Unfortunately daily mail and daily express readers keep electing ukip and Tory politicians who do not believe in the institutions they have been elected to serve the uk in and therefore rob the uk by maxing out their expenses whilst taking no part in the major coalitions/groupings which the eu is based around.
The eu is the largest trading block in the world. We have a choice. We can either be inside the largest trading block in the world and use it to bolster ourselves, or be outside, still heavily impacted by it's decisions but without any influence and forced to pay heavily to access it's markets.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Well, a Schengen visa costs GBP44 per adult and GBP26 per child, so add GBP140 for most family holidays.
How long will it take to assess and issue work visas to the 2 million or so EU citizens living in the UK?
Where are the 800,000 UK citizens living in Spain going to live if they don't get residence visas?
All these and many more will be debated endlessly....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
Over 75% of our laws (primary and secondary) is made in Brussels. Break it down as you wish, re-name it 'directives' if you want, but the facts speak for themselves.
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I have absolutely no idea why you believe that rubbish - which is counteracted by your own quote below in the same post
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'As new countries have joined, we have seen a hurried expansion in the areas for Qualified Majority Voting, so that Britain can be overruled more and more often (as has happened in the past five years). We have had not just the Maastricht Treaty, but Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon, every one of them representing an extension of EU authority and a centralisation in Brussels. According to the House of Commons library, anything between 15 and 50 per cent of UK legislation now comes from the EU; and remember that this type of legislation is very special.
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"Between 15 and 50%" - with the 15% being at the primary legislation end. And matching pretty well what I suggested above after a quick look through the list of Acts. So nothing remotely approaching your "over 75%", never mind teh 87% of primary legislation your first post suggested.
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It is unstoppable, and it is irreversible
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Neither of those are really true. Although the latter is pretty close to it as long as we remain within the EU and abide by the terms of teh treaties.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
'Where does this 75% come from?'
German Finance Minister. He estimated at least 83% of German laws are made in Brussels and that France and the U.K come in at around 75% |
So made up then.
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Take it up with Boris and Wolfgang Schaeuble chaps. I can't help it if you don't like what you hear. Boris has first class credentials on European affairs, Wolfgang Schaeuble has some insight too I believe. If of course you know better, perhaps you can share with us your wealth of knowledge that Boris and Wolfie are unaware of? Personally, 1% of our laws made outside of the U.K parliament is too much for me. If you believe that laws that govern nearly every aspect of your lives made elsewhere is right and proper, then fire away.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
Take it up with Boris and Wolfgang Schaeuble chaps. I can't help it if you don't like what you hear.
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It isn't about "not liking" what we hear. It about what you have stated being factually incorrect.
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Boris has first class credentials on European affairs, Wolfgang Schaeuble has some insight too I believe. If of course you know better, perhaps you can share with us your wealth of knowledge that Boris and Wolfie are unaware of? Personally, 1% of our laws made outside of the U.K parliament is too much for me.
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That is your prerogative, of course. But don't try to pretend that the amount is anything remotely approaching what your first post on the subject claimed, particularly when you then say "these are facts".
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If you believe that laws that govern nearly every aspect of your lives made elsewhere is right and proper, then fire away. |
All laws are made "elsewhere" except those made directly by referendum. The fact we get the chance to change the people who make them every 5 years doesn't really mean we have any more influence over them than we do those originating in the EU.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Britain doesn't make much stuff. We make less stuff every year. Our economy is like a goldfish drinking and swimming in its own rancid urine. The services this nation depends on will all eventually get sold off out of necessity and those services are most of what we are these days. We're going to vanish up our own back bottoms. We need to be part of the EU. Jingoism doesn't come into it. |
It annoys me when we get the clap-trap that the UK does not make anything as its not true. In fact figures from 2013 show we are have the 11th largest manufacturing output economy not far behind France and I would bet we have overtook France in the last 3 years and our Manufacturing output has increased on average by 1.4% a year since 1948, so far from making less stuff every year we are making more, its just because our financial sector is so successful the percentage that the manufacturing sector is worth to our country goes down.
The truth is does anyone really know what we happen if we leave the EU, it could be that we loss 10,000s of thousands of jobs and struggle to trade with europe or that we prosper outside a inward looking EU and trade more with the countries who will have rapidly expanding economies in the 21st century.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 22-02-16 15:59; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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'All laws are made "elsewhere" except those made directly by referendum. The fact we get the chance to change the people who make them every 5 years doesn't really mean we have any more influence over them than we do those originating in the EU.
Don't ever stand for election mate
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
| Don't ever stand for election mate |
I've been voting for several decades but only lived for a handful of years in a constituency that ever changes hands. Around here they could pin a blue rosette on a donkey and it would get elected. In fact they pretty much did. To all intents and purposes the local Conservative party chooses my MP. On the whole I've a higher opinion of the laws coming out of Brussels than the ones coming from Westminster and I've equally negligible influence over either of them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| Don Keebles wrote: |
| Don't ever stand for election mate |
I've been voting for several decades but only lived for a handful of years in a constituency that ever changes hands. Around here they could pin a blue rosette on a donkey and it would get elected. In fact they pretty much did. To all intents and purposes the local Conservative party chooses my MP.
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Same but opposite here. Being in Wales, it would be a sheep of course, rather than a donkey, but anything with a red rosette will get elected.
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On the whole I've a higher opinion of the laws coming out of Brussels than the ones coming from Westminster. |
I'm not quite sure I would go that far, but TBH, the majority of the ones which actually affect people are very similar indeed to laws we had already enacted, or were in the process of doing so.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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'On the whole I've a higher opinion of the laws coming out of Brussels than the ones coming from Westminster'
Then perhaps you're living in the wrong country?
You could move to a more marginal seat?
You could stand for election yourself?
All these things are possible in a democracy. However, when a law is passed you don't agree with, never asked for, was never debated in an open chamber but was still written into law by an unelected, unaccountable, faceless, appointed set of highly paid bureaucrats, you only have yourself to blame.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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'On the whole I've a higher opinion of the laws coming out of Brussels than the ones coming from Westminster'
Then perhaps you're living in the wrong country?
You could move to a more marginal seat?
You could stand for election yourself?
All these things are possible in a democracy. However, when a law is passed you don't agree with, never asked for, was never debated in an open chamber but was still written into law by an unelected, unaccountable, faceless, appointed set of highly paid bureaucrats, you only have yourself to blame.
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I do question how democratic this country is now considering our dreadful fptp electoral system, our divisive government that doesn't care for anyone who didn't vote for them and their determination to pass new laws which will rig the electoral process in their favour.
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@alex_heney,
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All laws are made "elsewhere" except those made directly by referendum. The fact we get the chance to change the people who make them every 5 years doesn't really mean we have any more influence over them than we do those originating in the EU.
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The difference is that laws made by UK parliamentarians at Westminster are made with the idea of benefitting the UK and its citizens. Laws made in Brussels are made by 28 nations, 27 of whom explicitly do NOT have our interests at heart unless it happens to suit their own interests.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Don Keebles wrote: |
| However, when a law is passed you don't agree with, never asked for, was never debated in an open chamber but was still written into law by an unelected, unaccountable, faceless, appointed set of highly paid bureaucrats, you only have yourself to blame. |
That (with the possible exception of the first) has always been true of the majority of UK secondary legislation.
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I'd have thought it was pretty easy to get chalet T&C through French law. Surely you'd pay gross then charge for rent, food, ski pass, ski equipment, etc? Downside would be higher taxes on the higher gross but manageable I'd have thought
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FAQ
