 Poster: A snowHead
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Apparently 40% of deaths on the slopes are a result of heart attacks. Should I carry a defibrillator? And what sort of backpack should I carry it in?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is this with self-administration in mind?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Can't speak for the piste, but some countries have rules insisting public useable defib kit is available in public places, but others don't.
NL does. Never recall seeing them in UK.
We have them at work but then it's international territory, so not entirely sure which member nation's rule applies.
They come in a backpack afaik, so no need to worry about that bit.
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Yes they should.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I suspect 40% of (non-accidental, non-deliberate) deaths in any public space are heart attacks. Why would you carry it rather than it being available?
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| andy wrote: |
Can't speak for the piste, but some countries have rules insisting public useable defib kit is available in public places, but others don't.
NL does. Never recall seeing them in UK. |
Lots of places in the UK have them, a mate had to use one on a guy and apparently really simple. Effectively a recorded message tells you what to do/attach and the machine works it all out.
Suspect the OP is being tongue in cheek but would be a good idea if lift stations had them available and wouldn't be too surprised to find out that many do.
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Piste rescue certainly have them. When I did my early morning with a pisteurs (a weekly offering in Les Saisies) he showed me all the kit in their store, after the coffee and cake pause. Lots of places in the UK have them, as noted above. I would be interested to know the stats about their use, including outcomes beyond the emergency stage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rg1 wrote: |
| Apparently 40% of deaths on the slopes are a result of heart attacks. Should I carry a defibrillator? And what sort of backpack should I carry it in? |
Every lift station should have one on the slopes. But you carrying one ? are you qualified to use one if not if anything does go wrong you could be held responsible with no defence. It is wrong but that is the nature of accident/injury claims these days.
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| skitow wrote: |
@pam w, I have seen public ones in France, there is even one under the canopy that is over the public water tap thingy in a local village, not so sure I would want wet hands when switching it on 
Seriously, as I understand it you just take the thing off it's charger and, like was said above, it tells you what to do and then gets on with it. There was a phone line attached to the charger on the ones I saw and I understand it automatically alerts the emergency services and gives you a line to them when it is taken off the charger.
Also I was told the law had to be changed in France to allow an unqualified person to use this equipment on another person.
I may have all this wrong, I am just repeating what someone else told me when we stopped at the water fountain  |
Historically there wer all sorts of problems
- first , there were historical "consistency" / quality problems with false positives etc. with the equipment; these appear to have been addressed by the various industry manufacturers in recent years, and the British Resuscitation Council changing their recommendations 4 or 5 years back, which appear to have coincided with Defibs being put back in public places
- the difference between Good Samaritan, first aid and the provison of "medical" procedures
PS if you're going to use one on someone, make sure they don't have any nipple rings .
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Impractical to carry one, but you do not need to be qualified to use, they are just about stupid proof.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In France it is an offence NOT to render assistance. but I'd still leave it to a pisteur if I had a choice. I'd stand up the slope directing traffic round the casualty. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Actually piercings aren't a problem. Pacemakers, different matter. In extreme circumstances you may get arcing from bra undersides but the alternative is much worse. Chances of survival go down 10% per minute without intervention. Using an AED correctly improves survival rated by about 2/3rds.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Witnessed someone collapsing and dying at the end of a run (cardiac arrest) once so I'd say yes they should be generally available in lift stations. I have seen them in some Austrian lift stations. I suspect they get used just as much the summer season.
If you get to use one the recorded instructions might be in a foreign lingo though!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can think of worse ways to go than a heart attack on a ski slope. Dying after some months of morbidity following delayed intervention is one of them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There are 3 or 4 in public access buildings in Tignes.
As for the UK they have deployed hundreds - even my parents village (120 people) has one attached to a building in the centre of the village. Its not on a charger - the battery is sealed - but it is in a heated box to keep the battery happy. The training took 15 mins - but it will talk you through the process and won't discharge unless it confirms it has to. It also beeps if you have to do CPR so you don't have to sing 'Nellie the Elephant' or 'Staying Alive'.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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They seem to be common in some public places. I've noticed them in railway stations.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rg1, Rather keep him/her going by CPR and make sure to get the right and quick info to the piste patrol.
As long as they have the size of today you should think if you want to go skiing or go to rescure people - once they get down to the size of a bipper - its a different question.
And there is no need to put it on the nippel ring(s)- just remember a fast shave if he (she?) looks like a monkey! 
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| Quote: |
just remember a fast shave if he (she?) looks like a monkey! NehNeh
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Is this so you look presentableat the inquest?
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what would also be useful...
cattle prods wired up to my ski poles.
don't mess with me in the lift queue, don't stand on my skis, and don't let a chair go half empty, unless you want a shock
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I regularly have the same argument with various staff at work who insist that "the defibrillator can't ever make a mistake because they are a computer". Then I ask them questions about their laptop, ipad, iPhone , sky box etc, and they still then say "well they wouldn't be able to sell them then...."
Still, the statistics do appear to suggest they make a lot less "mistakes" than they apparently used to. In the late 1990s/ early 2000s whenever one made a mistake the manufacturers just took it out of service rather than working out what the system error was.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Some restaurants in the three valleys should have them, many a bill has caused a pain in the chest.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Filthyphil30k, Or atrial fibrillation 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@chocksaway, There is a map of them here :-
http://www.heartsafe.org.uk/AED-Locations
There seems to be more popular in certain areas, who actually installs / pays for them ? We are particularly badly served,( North Wales), but then I am not sure how they work on sheep.
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@skitow, I think the parish/council pay for them.
Given the state some of my club mates return from a Time trial in my cycling club decided to have one at the club house just in case. The club did a little bit of fundraising - pub quiz and a raffle just about paid for one. In the grand scheme of things they're not too expensive.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| speed098 wrote: |
| rg1 wrote: |
| Apparently 40% of deaths on the slopes are a result of heart attacks. Should I carry a defibrillator? And what sort of backpack should I carry it in? |
Every lift station should have one on the slopes. But you carrying one ? are you qualified to use one if not if anything does go wrong you could be held responsible with no defence. It is wrong but that is the nature of accident/injury claims these days. |
You don't need to be qualified to use one. They're self explanatory. It's an urban myth that people get sued for doing their best to save someone in circumstances like this.
One way to look at it is that you're dealing with a dead person. They're not going to get more dead, but you might save them.
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Poster: A snowHead
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We now have one in the village. It's installed in the old phone box after BT grumbled about keeping the box active. The village were up in arms that they might lose the phone (as we have no mobile signal in the village) until BT pointed out the phone box had only been used once in the last 4 years!
The only problem is that you need a code to open the defibrillator box. You can get this code from 999, but you haven't got a phone to call them on!
About 1/3 of the village all did defibrillator training. Ours took 3 hours! It was mostly about CPR, as I gather that the vast majority of times the defibrillator will correctly decide that a shock isn't going to help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Websites such as heartsafe are not official and do not have all defibs on them. If you suspect someone is having a heart attack (in the UK) dial 999 and the ambulance service will direct you to the nearest PAD (public access defibrillator) and give you the code to access it if they believe you need one. This only works if there is more than one person available - if you are the only person you shouldn't leave the casualty and should be doing CPR. All PADs talk to you and instruct you what to do, you don't need any training.
Defibs are funded in all sorts of different ways - councils, private groups, Community First Responders (which is what our local one is), and a scheme for dentists, etc. Dentists HAVE to have a defib on premise, and some were paid extra to get it on the outside of the building as a PAD.
@hammerite, if your cycling group could do a bit more fund-raising you may want to get an official (very secure) outside cabinet to turn it into a PAD. You co-ordinate doing this with your local ambulance service who can either supply the box or point you at where to get it. It's important once it's in place that they register it, or they will be unable to direct people to it.
Whilst it's not practical to carry a defib, we can all carry 300mg of soluble (not ordinary) aspirin, which can be taken if someone may be having a heart attack. This has to be dissolved under your tongue or chewed, not swallowed. I have 300mg in my lift pass pocket, in my handbag, in the car, etc. so it's always handy.
If you haven't already done so, please spend just 30 minutes learning CPR via the British Heart Foundation: https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/nation-of-lifesavers/call-push-rescue
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As SnoodyMcFlude surmises, I was being slightly tongue in cheek posting this - a reaction to the dreaded helmet thread, as it does seem that for most of us in middle age, this is a much greater risk than a head injury, but one that never gets mentioned.
However, it seems I may have inadvertently stumbled on something here - lot's of interesting posts and comments above. I will be looking with interest to see any signs of defibrillators at lift stations in Saalbach and Espace Killy on my trips this year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rg1, yes, guessed it may be tongue in cheek, but thought it a great opportunity to keep spreading the word about defibs, aspirin and CPR training!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Considering people on courses are dropping dead like flies, I think it should be obligatory for everyone to carry at least one. I mean seriously... how many times you were in situation on course, that defibrillator would come handy? I have probably spent more time on courses then most of people here, yet I was not in such situation yet... ever in my life, and I hope it will stay with this.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I can think of worse ways to go than a heart attack on a ski slope. Dying after some months of morbidity following delayed intervention is one of them. |
Hmm, maybe - but I'd rather go some years later following a prompt and timely intervention...
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Just a thought, approx 80% of people in Austria have first aid training of some sort (it is compulsory requirement for a driving license) compared to approx 5% in the UK, I know there is no guarantee that someone with training would intervene and help but having more people trained has got to be better surely.
As was said above someone who requires cpr or defib is dead so you can't get much worse really.
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@sj1608,
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Whilst it's not practical to carry a defib, we can all carry 300mg of soluble (not ordinary) aspirin, which can be taken if someone may be having a heart attack. This has to be dissolved under your tongue or chewed, not swallowed. I have 300mg in my lift pass pocket, in my handbag, in the car, etc. so it's always handy.
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Good point! After my defib/CPR course I carry aspirin everywhere I go now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My brother in-law died of brain damage after a cardiac arrest whilst playing football last July.
He calpsed and they tried CPR, no help for a cardiac arrest. After 5mins someone arrived with a defibrillator. To late then brain damage caused.
He was in a perm vegative state for 10days until they switch the life support off. He passed away the next day.
Had someone had a defibrillator there on hand he might have survived but stats are very low.
Sad times, he was a lovely guy
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@KernowRed, That's tragic. Very sorry.
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He calpsed and they tried CPR, no help for a cardiac arrest
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Can you explain what you meant by this? Wasn't clear to me.
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