 Poster: A snowHead
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Davo, I think Salomon pulled out of rear-entry boots because the late Georges Salomon had essentially ceded control of his business at the time the decision was made.
It's now 20-30 years since all the key patents concerning rear-entry boots were filed, and therefore the market is open to any manufacturer to get serious about this consumer-friendly concept again, without the necessity to pay license fees to the original patent-holders (as I understand it).
I skied last winter in a mint pair of Nordica Syntechs (photo right), which date from the mid-1990s, and were a fusion of rear-entry and clips. It's a superb design, lacking the Salomon's flex control feature but with superior shell closure (since the Salomon designs had a fixed volume shell). Like the Salomon SX series, the Nordica has a very effective release at the rear for walking and easy entry.
I agree that it's high time that boot design got innovative and sensible again. |
Oh dear Lord, what is that thing? Yikes!
I hope if rear entry boots make a comeback that we can still buy "normal" boots. Back in the '80s it seemed like 95% of the boots were rear entry. They never worked for me because I always seemed to have hot spots. I had to get the only regular boots in the store.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks Dudley ,
I think if you could only by joggers and no other kind of shoe, most people would be upset. That's fair enough because we don't all like joggers. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. The sport of skiing and the people who make ski equipment, should have grown up by now and not be so fad sensitive. I used surfing as an example before because it has grown up, be it all of late, and it offer a vast range of options in equipment. Surf gear is also very lucrative even though its smaller than skiing.
By the way I think one of the great advantages of rear entry ski boots was the molded inner boot, that many of them had. It could be ground back to remove pressure points and had a much more consistent texture. Modern ski boots inner boots are actually made from old cheaper materials that degrade much more quickly. As for molding to the shape of your ankles or sole, EPP foam is much better at this than most of the materials currently used and its cheap.
Cheers. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Davo, really? Not my understanding...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Still skiing my Salomon SX92 equipes today. I try rentals every year or so and haven't found anything to compare. I'm not racing downhill, but I ski hard and they do the job for me. The best part is the easy in and out, adjustability, and compression release if you need it while riding up the lift or just to walk around. Plus they are lighter than any of the front entry boots I've tried. I still have my fingers crossed that Salomon will role them out again soon..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I remember rear entry boots coming out and I tried them. In the end I bought one of the last pairs of four clip boots being made. They were marvelous and a revelation to my skiing. The rear entry boots were far too wide and my feet flopped around like mad in them. I tried a pair a few years ago and found that even with the best size available I could not only lift my heal in the boot but leaning forward on the skis I could almost get my foot out of the boot.
They were rubbish and best left as history.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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My first pair of boots were SX60/61? - dead comfy! Had 'em for a few years until they weren't stiff enough for me. I'm sure they could improve on the SX range a lot these days.
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But what does 'bump' mean ?
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bump=mogul=tractor field=whoops=une bosse=big cheese=potatoe graters
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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moffatross, 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Haha, another old thread dredged up. I stand by my earlier comments, I loved my rear entry boots, although these days I do have far less uncomfortable 4 clip jobbies. Still a job and a half to get the damn things on and off though...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I had a pair back in the 80`s and they were the first pair of boots I had found comfortable since the leather lace ups I wore when I first learned to ski in the early 70`s! At the time I was skiing with army ski instructors in Bavaria, many of whom had rear entry boots and all those guys were really in favour of them.
I was really sad to discover they were no longer available when mine finally gave up the ghost!
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The research and development of Salomon's rear-entry range (6 years initially in the 1970s, then another decade of perfecting) resulted in many patents and a brilliant design that really addressed skiers' performance/fit and ergonomic needs. A high percentage of instructors loved rear-entry, racers generally didn't.
Rear-entry should certainly be revived as an option, but industrialists of the calibre and brilliance of the late Georges Salomon are hard to find.
The concept is just as relevant and appealing as it ever was.
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You know it makes sense.
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| stevepick wrote: |
...I thought back through the daft things I have seen..
7. Goggles with fans - great until the battry died in cold.
8. Skiis with "anti vibration damping" mechanisms in the tips |
7. Modern field-replaceable lens goggles with built in fans are alive and well - I rode with at least two people using them today.
8. No snowboard race has been won since about 2003 on a board which wasn't vibration damped. They don't use red bobbles, but the principle is similar.
--
Rear Entry boots?
I never understood them, but I had to work to avoid them. The rear-entry people had a huge percentage of the market. I was seriously worried I would not be able to buy boots in the future. I met many UK skiers back then, and they were all using those terrible boots.
I don't really understand why the market turned. My memory is that one day the "media" loved rear entry, the next day they discovered "performance". It was not, to my memory, Solomon making a race boot - Solomon had no credibility at all in the boot business, and I seem to remember that they produced their clip boots once the game was lost; it was the last move, not the first.
I assume that the reason the things have not come back is that they're basically useless - they solve a problem (walking, getting into the boots), which simply doesn't exist in any serious sense. On the other hand I think fashion is a huge influence - people probably bought those things because they wanted to "ride the white wave". Snowboard boots today are similarly garbage, but they're not yet unfashionable because of it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@David Goldsmith,
This week I tried my new Salomon Quest 2015 ski boots. I have experimented 3 hours with them on several slopes. For me; they are not more confortable or warmer than my old beloved Sx 91, and they do not make me ski any better. I still prefer my former Sx 91. There is still some good life in them, I whish I could find new ones similar. The internal adjustments are more direct, and I do them just once for all. The lower front buckle on traditional boots do almost nothing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They have new Nordica rear entry boots in Ischgl right now, in one of the shops I saw today. The assistant in the shop told me they are really comfortable but not really much good for performance skiing.
While waiting for some footbeds to cool, I picked up one of these boots. It didn't seems too much lighter than a regular boot, but looked different due to the angled front and absence of buckles.
I would not be surprised if many will try/buy them, as comfort is most important to many cruisers. The typical wannabees though will stick to the 150 flex boots as they will make them look a better skier 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Fascinating how this threat originally started in 2006 returns every year or so. The gap between David Goldsmith and Erick is 14 months. I will be in interested to see if DG (or one of his many disguises) will respond . . .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Erick, what are you doing resurrecting this old and rubbish thread? Leave well alone you necrothreadiac.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Erick, thank you for your late entry to this rear-entry thread. Everything you say is understandable and commendable.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@mayr, looks like your visions are aimed at the beginner/rental market... so not very comfortable and no performance whatsoever.
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@beequin, no offence but your opinion on rear entry boots is just wrong - Nordica Air's were a rear entry boot that had a a heel lock in the rear shell and a ratchet wire noose through the front part of the boot. When you closed the boot the heel lock trapped your heel tightly and then you micro ratcheted the top arch part of the boot in until your heel was snug but not too tight. You could not raise your heel at all. After that you pumped up a front air bladder, the boot shrunk to fit your foot exactly whilst providing adjustable cushioning for your shin. BEST BOOT EVER MADE!! Technica are just reviving them now (although not as complex as the originals). I was going to see if I could revive the concept but they beat me to it.
The only issue I had was that the boot was too low but I got over that by using chunky power straps. That said I think I had the sooper-dooper ones 'cos I have seen some really duff pairs that look like boots worn by the extras in Battlestar Galacitica .... Mine were trick!!!
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Who or what are you replying to?@RattytheSnowRat,
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@MIKEUP, it being 1991 since I last saw mine, I seem to recall a plastic screw deep in the foam of the shin that needs to be rotated (not removed) and the same (perhaps two) on the calf piece.
I cannot believe that they're good for much now, I'm on my 5th pair of boots since them.
It's not really a stiffness issue, I like a stiff boot but never had my 92s (not equipe) on more than setting 3 of 5. The big issue is precision and fit.
Now there is a valid argument that you don't need an all enveloping fit, just close contact at the right points.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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We go skiing each year with a freind who still wears a pair of rear entry boots.. Skis better than my wife who has new boots..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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They're still around... I see loads of Germans in them still. I've even seen a shop on the border in Austria where you can hire them, and in no small number! Somebody must be making them still...
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Markpoint, they are a great rental boot ... for the shop ... not for the skier
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Poster: A snowHead
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Like I said - Shame they're still with us but if some find them comfortable and suit their needs, why not ...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
@MIKEUP, it being 1991 since I last saw mine, I seem to recall a plastic screw deep in the foam of the shin that needs to be rotated (not removed) and the same (perhaps two) on the calf piece.
I cannot believe that they're good for much now, I'm on my 5th pair of boots since them.
It's not really a stiffness issue, I like a stiff boot but never had my 92s (not equipe) on more than setting 3 of 5. The big issue is precision and fit.
Now there is a valid argument that you don't need an all enveloping fit, just close contact at the right points. |
thanks
there do not appear to be any external screws on the rear of the boot - two on the front cuff - but they dont attach to the inner ( for adjusting cuff / stiffness? )
the rear boot inner I can see is attached by single point level with the external closure mechanism - which has a sprung lever at the very top ( level with the inner boot attachment point ) Whos function I can not discern - but does not appear to release inner ) - I have a larger pair of 92's I will play with / risk damaging - to find out
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I must be one of the 10%... I find most modern performance boots far too comfortable and I'm not even a racer. (I destroyed a set of solly X-Max 120s in a week as they were too soft). My minimum requirements for a boot are 98mm last and at least a 130 flex.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The perceived need for stiff, high performance boots from recreational skiers is vastly exaggerated IMHO.
Most recreational skiers would have a far more comfortable and enjoyable day in a lighter weight but adequately supporting boot like the one above.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The problem being, @Mike Pow, that rear entry boots were not in my or anyone else I know (actually, one exception) either very comfortable nor particularly supportive. And I believe/suspect that it's easier to fit a traditional overlap to a foot correctly than with a rear entry. (Hanson perhaps excepted, but they really were the exception that proves the rule).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
The problem being, @Mike Pow, that rear entry boots were not in my or anyone else I know (actually, one exception) either very comfortable nor particularly supportive. And I believe/suspect that it's easier to fit a traditional overlap to a foot correctly than with a rear entry. (Hanson perhaps excepted, but they really were the exception that proves the rule).
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I started in rear entry boots and loved them.
Something like a rear entry boot and a Full Tilt boot hybrid could be spot on.
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| under a new name wrote: |
The problem being, @Mike Pow, that rear entry boots were not in my or anyone else I know (actually, one exception) either very comfortable nor particularly supportive. And I believe/suspect that it's easier to fit a traditional overlap to a foot correctly than with a rear entry. (Hanson perhaps excepted, but they really were the exception that proves the rule).
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My first pair were SX61's in 1989. Extremely comfy! Not that stiff though, but I guess the SX91's were stiffer.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
The perceived need for stiff, high performance boots from recreational skiers is vastly exaggerated IMHO.
Most recreational skiers would have a far more comfortable and enjoyable day in a lighter weight but adequately supporting boot like the one above. |
+1 Mike
There are many 3 piece ( sometimes called cabrio) boots around like the Flexon and the Krypton indeed most touring boots are a variation of this theme. Easy to put on and comfortable all day.
Yes I do occasionally wear a pair of Lange Plug boots, but then only to really thrash down an icy piste like a hooligan.
Anyone not racing or skiing icy pistes at speed doesn't need a stiff boot - I've skied the North Face of the Midi in Scarpa Spirit's and never felt the need for a stiffer boot (I felt the need for many other things that day)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My first pair of boots where Nordica rear entry and god where they crap, the foam though very tight when new compressed to much the volume control was rubbish and broke a few times. I did not progress that quickly with them. I then moved onto Dynafit 3f Team and the difference was amazing so much more control confidence went up and I improved quickly, well until I snapped the rivets holding the rear springs/walk mode 3 out of 4 on each boot on the top of the tunnel run at ADH. I managed to get a pair of the comps from a shop there and wow race boots felt so much better the control was immediate precise and again built confidence.
They lasted a good few years, of year round skiing so probably did circa 5-6000 hours so really got my moneys worth. After that came the Lange ZR the only concrete boot I have ever seen that came in orange. These where some of the stiffest boots I ever had and again a big step up but with my sports background and sheer amount of hours skiing every year for me I needed an ultra stiff boot ( I did try some Salomon SX91 exp I think they where red and white ) and god they felt like water filled wellington boots in comparison) so the Lange won out easy. When I came to change again tried some more sallies and again fit was horrendous I could still feel the cable the closure was not constant around my whole foot and so Lange in the shape of the XR9 Race won.
Now for some if they suited their foot shape may have found rear entry to be great boots but the amount of good skiers who raved about them I just could not get my head round a boot so limited on finesse of closure could work for so many foot shapes. To me there seemed a lot of peer pressure after all nobody could dispute Salomon's marketing it was better than everyone else's bar Lange combined and still way better than Lange who of course had Girardelli and Tomba.
Every sites the rear entry boots for being so comfy to walk in or even just to stand in but I always found my well fitting 4 buckle boots where great for walking in and standing was bliss just allowing the shins to rest against the boot.
Are they great for hire shops yes ! are they great for beginners/young kids yes ! for people with very special requirements that prohibit 3,4 or 5 buckle boots yes ! but are they really a good boot for everyone else in my opinion no ! we are talking a precision sport a sport with high loads and to me rear entry would be like trying to compete in a F1 race in a VW Tourag it may look great may work well in some conditions but it can never hold a perfect line at high speed, it will never instil the confidence in a corner like an F1 car will.
So that's my two penneth worth to explain why I do not really want to see rear entry boots become a mainstream option that will only detract from people discovering what a really great fitting boot can allow them to do. There are many more reasons as well as those mentioned way too many to really go into here.
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Bet they will fit me great when i am 80 and struggle to get into my boots 
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FAQ
