The Dec 2012 Tignes avalanche was well-reported on here. snowHeads were in resort for the PSB and some had skied on the same area minutes before. Others were involved in the search afterwards. The UCPA instructors have been given suspended sentences following guilty verdicts in June
Wonder if their national association will disbarr them a la BASI/Butler or will stand by them?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The instructors have been banned from working (as ski instructors) for 1 year (as well as the 1 year suspended prison sentence as reported in the Planet Ski article). Going off piste in the conditions desribed without transceiver, shovel and probe was, and is, indefensible ...
The principal association is the SNMSF that has c. 17,000 members.
..but given the degree of attachment the French have to safety in their instructors (which is why they simply have to be fast at Eurotest...) surely a conviction for conspicuous failure to practice safe practices is basis for a life ban by their qualifying/certifying body?
NB I don't assume this will happen but it's interesting to compare and contrast what BASI consider ban worthy.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
marksavoie wrote:
The principal association is the SNMSF that has c. 17,000 members.
I was there that day and frankly anyone leading a group off piste with inadequate equipment in those conditions merits much more severe treatment, if only "pour encourager les autres".
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
marksavoie wrote:
The instructors have been banned from working (as ski instructors) for 1 year (as well as the 1 year suspended prison sentence as reported in the Planet Ski article). Going off piste in the conditions desribed without transceiver, shovel and probe was, and is, indefensible ...
+1
Sentence is too light.
After all it is free
After all it is free
It marvels me that they were doing an off piste course, and the single most important things are kit and check the avi risk in the area prior to even stepping out the door....... Id like to mention common sense too, but it seems not everyone has that. Obviously then there is a number of other things you do before stepping off piste
Now im not going to say that we are all high and mighty as hind sight is a wonderful thing, but im glad that im one of those real risk averse people that always got my kit and will neither ski in even slightly dodgy conditions or ski with those who push the boundaries.
Last edited by After all it is free on Fri 7-08-15 20:03; edited 1 time in total
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PaulC1984, They were not doing an off piste course.
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rjs wrote:
PaulC1984, They were not doing an off piste course.
It says they were conducting a training exercise off piste....
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
PaulC1984 wrote:
rjs wrote:
PaulC1984, They were not doing an off piste course.
It says they were conducting a training exercise off piste....
It was not an off piste course.
They were there for Eurotest and Test Technique training, it had snowed and from memory the glacier was shut.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
From what I had read (briefly and from the article) they were off piste, even if they hadn't planned on being.
Quote ''At UCPA Tignes, people can still feel stunned by the episode. The director, Marc Queirard repeats he does not understand. He does not understand why these trainees went going off piste while everyone knew the risk. According to him, it was not really planned''
In any event, if your going off piste, have the kit and do the right things. if not stay on piste
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Before we all get the pitchforks out and hang them from the nearest lamppost, I was there that day. I skied right down the route they skied. I was not intending (nor was any member of my group) to be off piste, and followed a route down which normally is a marked piste, indeed it still had a metal pole with a signpost pointing down the route we took.
I understand they should have known (and I certainly didnt) that without the piste markers the piste was not open, even though there was no rope across the entrance to the piste or other signage suggesting the piste was closed.
There but for the grace of god and all that stuff, and the standard to which they are being held is much higher than us, the average punter, but it was an easy mistake to make to end up on that run down without avalanche equipment, we did exactly that and would never do so knowingly, only 20 minutes before this incident.
There is a video somewhere of the route we took down, with the piste sign still in place, and the rescuers ending their search in the area we had just come through.
To be honest after this kind of trauma knowing that others have died as a result of bad decision they made I would be quite surprised if they ski again, I certainly wouldn't expect to see them off piste any time soon. They will have punished themselves over and over, and will probably continue to question everything that happened that day, for the rest of their lives.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Mistress Panda, I thought that at the time you said that where the slide happened was off to the side of the erstwhile piste so even if they had innocently made the mistake you'd made they were still off that (not by much but no such thing as just off piste etc etc....)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I skied down the piste below this just before the incident with another Snowhead because there were no ropes to say it was closed and it looked ok at the top. It was difficult to spot the correct route down once on the run but there were instructors taking clients down there. Although normally a piste it had few markers and lots of snow on it. I helped one instructor's client by retrieving a ski after they fell. I must admit at the time that although the run looked ok at the start I wouldn't have done it if I knew what it was like lower down. In my opinion that run shouldn't have been open but there was no indication that it wasn't.
On the way back up the lift we saw loads of people carrying out a search but at the time thought it was a training exercise.
My understanding is that these people were just above the piste we skied under the lift and the avalanche went on to the piste.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Dave of the Marmottes, I'd have to check, but once we took the turn, effectively everything from that signpost onwards was off piste. Which way we went down, whether it used to be the piste, would be the piste once a basher went down it, all very academic. We followed roughly the route the piste takes normally, and the incident certainly wasn't far from there at all.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Mistress Panda, like @geepee I though they were above the route you skied, which is as you describe and prometheus and I opted out of when we saw the conditions (older and wiser and all that!).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mistress Panda wrote:
Before we all get the pitchforks out and hang them from the nearest lamppost, I was there that day. I skied right down the route they skied. I was not intending (nor was any member of my group) to be off piste, and followed a route down which normally is a marked piste, indeed it still had a metal pole with a signpost pointing down the route we took.
" no, we went the other side of the top of Tufs, not around the top track and steep section. We went down the piste and then turned off, and it was at no point that steep."
The run in question is Paquerettes. It is marked as Black-dashed. i.e. "Itinerere". It goes from the top station of what was the Aeroski now Toviere, and crosses underneath it. It is steep and joins the "Trolles" black piste at the point at which the Blue piste "Henri" starts.
You can search for it here http://www.tignes.net/en/skiing-in-tignes/ski-run-map-28.html
A historical shot of the Paquerettes in skied condition.
Here's a video of a skier on "Grizzly" which is the itinerere to skiers' right of Paquerettes.
http://youtube.com/v/Gtqd8ZsIfXU At the end he looks back up the slope and you can see the top of the Aeroski. That's Paquerettes underneath it. He's calling his route down the "Grizzly" "Paquerettes Bis"
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 9-08-15 17:44; edited 2 times in total
I'm sure that the court case will have been through e era detail and witness statement.
A tragic loss where, I'm sure, lessons will be learned.
Reading through this thread and the one directly following the accident it does make me wonder how much man made objects such as lifts, poles and markers give us a false sense of security in the mountains. Perhaps we only take precautions when off the beaten track whereas skiing next to a piste or under a lift is just as dangerous.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@SkiPresto, what is the point of posting a picture & video which do not in any way resemble the conditions on the day
The piste was not 'open', not 'marked with piste poles', the only signs are permanent signs which are there all year round. So by definition it was 'off piste'.
A young girl tragically lost her life due to her 'trainers' poor decision. In my humble opinion they should be serving a prison sentence.
@SkiPresto, what is the point of posting a picture & video which do not in any way resemble the conditions on the day
Because it's helpful for those of us not intimately familiar with the area? From the other thread a member of the vic's party who was themselves nearly avalanched describes 2 "couloirs" are these the chutes below the hut visible in the photo. I can see how that might flush - video guy knocks a bit of a slab himself then gets out of the way (although not helpful to those traversing below).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@cameronphillips2000, +1
After all it is free
After all it is free
S. Woodward. Obviously, *you* do not need the information, as you are an expert intimately acquainted with the area.
However, there is clearly some confusion in other Snowheads posters' minds as to where exactly the slope in question is, and the name of the slope, and whether they were on the run in question. There is also comment to the effect that people can ski off down these runs by mistake, or by misreading signs, or by skiing in from the piste. No, you can't it takes deliberate effort to go to these runs.
You go on to say:
Quote:
The piste was not 'open', not 'marked with piste poles', the only signs are permanent signs which are there all year round. So by definition it was 'off piste'. A young girl tragically lost her life due to her 'trainers' poor decision. In my humble opinion they should be serving a prison sentence.
There is no argument there, about the tragedy and the liability, as you will be well aware. Whose quotation marks are you using? (because you are not quoting me, as far as I recall.)
Today: The run is marked on the current on-line map as an itineraire with a dotted line and named as "Paquerettes". (Itinéraires de ski hors piste à Tignes). So yes, these are offpiste, but they are named and marked on the map and in the season, Itineraires are marked with a single line of (usually) black and yellow poles. Full offpiste avalanche equipment should be carried by all members of the party, and there's no excuse for the leader's negligence in this case in the conditions that day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
A young girl tragically lost her life due to her 'trainers' poor decision. In my humble opinion they should be serving a prison sentence.
Yes. It is not about finding blame after a tragic accident, but creating a training environment where safety is REALLY respected and understood, not just treated as a useful tool to protect an industry. If that sounds cynical, the leniency of the sentencing, especially in relation to other similar incidents in France, has only added to this cynicism.
Anyone who has ski-trained, in any of the systems, will know the situation:
A trainer has a spontaneous idea to do a slope, and fresh powder is so enticing, exciting..... That this was a trainer in a professional setting is an ethical point. Not all 20 year olds, (again training in any ski system) would dare say -
"er actually I don't feel comfortable with that idea, even though you are a Ski God who may also be evaluating me, and will probably also influence my future work prospects"
or -
"er, I don't have my transceiver on".
That last comment is even unnecessary - anyone taking a group off piste must ALWAYS conduct a transceiver check, to ensure they are all working. This is so basic to safety, it's the 101 of ski leading of piste. Never mind the understandable desire to ski the powder, that the victim was not wearing a working transceiver is awful in this setting. Always question someone who takes you off piste that does not conduct this simple test. A transceiver alone will not necessarily save you of course, but in this particular case there were many trained people right there in the semi-closed resort to join in the probing search...but in vain.
The tragic irony (RIP the poor trainee) is that the group were Autumn race training for Eurotest or Test Technique. Race training and racing we are told improves our skiing - it does. But so does powder, or variables. So does mogul skiing. So does freestyle. Of course, if you go into any one of these in depth, you will improve your skiing, as with racing. But the EU have been told that the Eurotest, and racing alone as a ski technique, is vital for safety. That is why we have the systems we have and glacier race training is such a big part of the ski training world and business. Sentencing like this may make many believe it is all merely a safety sham.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@SkiPresto, we skied where the search teams were probing in video on the other thread. Where they came from, and where they ended up, either the search team was in the wrong place, we were not on the piste we thought we were, or there is some other misunderstanding. I suspect they came from higher up above the run we were on, though the actual incident seemed to be in the same place we came down - not from the steeper section above it that they were on. The dogs in the video are above where the slide happened, and roughly level with the signpost I have mentioned.
You seem pretty keen to discredit the opinions of those who were there on the day in a confrontational manner, the simple statement I have made is that it was a mistake but one which many others could have easily made - in low visibility, with reasonably deep snow everywhere in resort including on the marked and groomed pistes, taking a wrong turn following a sign post into an area which was technically closed but not immediately obviously so perhaps we should not treat this as the criminally stupid error others seem to believe it should be.
When there is an incident, especially one where someone is likely to be at fault, I tend to go out of my way to avoid criticising those who are trying to provide some kind of clarity. Otherwise next time there is an incident nobody says anything for fear of people like you becoming very critical of them and the information they might be able to provide.
Personally, I think that resorts probably should rope off runs which are closed to avoid things like this happening to those who don't know the ins and outs of local customs on this - we met about 10 people on the way down the run, some of which needed rescuing from particularly deep snow, all of which did not intend to be off piste and were following the same route they had taken before which was now off piste. Pquerettes was closed too from memory, but not roped off at the top - easy mistake to make for someone like me, perhaps an instructor or guide would and should know better but preventing your average joe from ending up off piste by accident does seem a reasonable idea.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
The closed pistes in Serre Chevalier are usually very obviously closed with netting and signs across the entrances.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mistress Panda wrote:
You seem pretty keen to discredit the opinions of those who were there on the day in a confrontational manner, the simple statement I have made is that it was a mistake but one which many others could have easily made - in low visibility, with reasonably deep snow everywhere in resort including on the marked and groomed pistes, taking a wrong turn following a sign post into an area which was technically closed but not immediately obviously so perhaps we should not treat this as the criminally stupid error others seem to believe it should be.
If it was a group of holiday skiers then that might be reasonable, but it wasn't: it was a group led by a professional. No excuse for not knowing exactly where they're going, especially on a low visibility day.
I'm speculating, but I think it's more likely down to the arrogant/ignorant (choose which you will) attitude that I find quite common in older (especially local) instructors, which is notably different to guides: they grew up in the resort, they think they know where is safe, and where slides, and trust too much in their local knowledge. One big fat heuristic trap.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I predict this will go for at least 23 pages.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@clarky999, my concern is probably more that the two people dragged out of the avalanche could easily have been my group, there was nothing that suggested any kind of danger or not to ski a route we have skied maybe 30 times before, down a piste, that on that day happened to not be a piste.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Mistress Panda agree being judgemental isn't helpful. Your account reads true and it sounds like it was truly scary to have had to rescue people in difficulty and stuck in deep snow that day. Accidents happen. Avalanches happen. It is honest to admit that it could have been someone in your party and to make a plea for a true evaluation of what happened. The lesson learned surely should be that we should carry the right equipment.
This was a group of professionals, lead by a group of professionals, training for an element of the ski system that is actually in place for 'safety reasons'. The glacier was closed so they were not race training. That the victim was not even wearing a transceiver is so important, and illustrates a problem in the ski industry and the training of its professionals. It is not the first time this has happened, sadly. The sentence, in this professional context, is light.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Today: The run is marked on the current on-line map as an itineraire with a dotted line and named as "Paquerettes". (Itinéraires de ski hors piste à Tignes). So yes, these are offpiste, but they are named and marked on the map and in the season, Itineraires are marked with a single line of (usually) black and yellow poles. Full offpiste avalanche equipment should be carried by all members of the party, and there's no excuse for the leader's negligence in this case in the conditions that day.
Slightly OT but I thought Itineraires were patrolled and avalanche controlled and hence full off piste avalanche equipment was not required? Yes/no or is it a case of "mmm, well maybe"
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
halfhand wrote:
Quote:
Today: The run is marked on the current on-line map as an itineraire with a dotted line and named as "Paquerettes". (Itinéraires de ski hors piste à Tignes). So yes, these are offpiste, but they are named and marked on the map and in the season, Itineraires are marked with a single line of (usually) black and yellow poles. Full offpiste avalanche equipment should be carried by all members of the party, and there's no excuse for the leader's negligence in this case in the conditions that day.
Slightly OT but I thought Itineraires were patrolled and avalanche controlled and hence full off piste avalanche equipment was not required? Yes/no or is it a case of "mmm, well maybe"
Well, by the experience in this incident, they took the decision to ski this "Paquerettes" run with no avo equipment and directly caused the death of a trainee.. "mmm, well Maybe" the three trainers should have gone to jail.
Although "Paquerettes" is marked with dotted lines on the piste map, you might argue that it is inbounds and has a rescue hut directly above it. One of the girls involved "_titi" claims that the leaders got the permission of the pisteurs to ski it. (see below). Even so, they would have avoided the fatality if transceivers had been worn by every member of the party.
My rule is: On a powder day, I put on the transceiver and switch it on before leaving the house and carry shovel and probe - even If I'm supposed to be race training, or skiing on piste.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 12-08-15 0:46; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This I think was referred to a couple of years ago. It is from http://www.skipass.com/forums/sports/ski_freestyle/sujet-118652-74500.html
It is an account by one of the students ("_titi") in the fatal group, and I re-print it here (with my own attempt at a translation) for the purposes of quoting evidence for the location and the circumstances of the accident.
titi_
Le 7 déc. 2012 - 18:21
... ...
on était deux groupes de dix avec un formateur dans chaque groupe. pour ceux qui connaisent tignes c etait sur le secteur toviere, plus précisement sur la piste noire " paquerettes". a part que ce jours la pas balisé donc hors piste.on avait l aval des pisteurs pour y aller . chaque groupe a emprunté un couloir différent , au milieux une grosse congère sépare les couloirs. nos formateurs tatent le terrain ,essayent de faire partir ect.
mon formateur passe en premirr.chaque groue s elancent un par un dzns les couloirs. je pase en neuvieme position. j attend mon coatch qui me crie stop ne vzs pas a gauche. je me retourne et voisble début de l avalanche emporté l aute formateur en haut. il a réussi a resté en surface en s agripant a un rocher.
je me fais prendre jusqu a la taille mais arrive a faire demi tour. mon coatch ma sauvé la vie sinon je partai en plein dedans...on voit l avalanche partir au dessous de nous... je réalise pas trop au début. puis apres ca va tres vite...on retrouve T car sa main dépassait. puis les pisteurs sont vite arrivé on commence a sonder... beaucoup de renfort arrive, ensa, esf,..
on retrouve N d abord au bout de 20 minutes a peu pres sui m ont semblé des heures...
il s en est sorti sans aucune sequelle il va bien (choqué evidemment)
puis C au moins encore 25 minutes apres…
elle etait en arret , puis avait repris une activité cardiaque, puis coma artifuciel...on gardé espoir. elle est morte hier. .. voila c est vraiment pas facile a vivre.on est tous sous le choc...... c tres dur a vivre. j arrete pas de me refaire le scénario dans ma tete..... ca aurait pu etre xhacun de nous.... On pense aussi beaucoup a la famille, et on soutient aussi tres firt nos coatch.....
j ai l impression de vivre un cauchemar.. on se pose beaucoup de question ... mais les chodes sont ainsi. et en meme temps la vie doit continuer....
je me dis que c est injuste , que j aurzi pu etre a sa place... mais je suis la...
titi_
The December 7 2012 - 6:21 p.m.
We were two groups of ten with a trainer in each group. For those who know Tignes, (it) was the Toviere sector, more precisely on the black run "Paquerettes". Except that that day it had not been marked with piste poles therefore was off-piste. (We) had the (support/approval) of the pisteurs to go.
Each group took a different couloir, a big snowdrift in (the middle) separates the couloirs. Our trainers tested the terrain, trying to make (a release start ?(etc.)
My trainer enters first. Each group went one-by-one in the coulours. I went in ninth position. I waited when my coach called me to stop, shouting “don't go left”. I turned and saw the first of the avalanche which swept away the other trainer higher up. He managed to stay on the surface by clinging to a rock.
I got caught up to the waist but (managed to) turn back. My coach saved my life or I (would have gone) right in ... the avalanche went from below us ... I did not realize at first - after then it's going very fast ... we find "T" because his hand is sticking out. Then pisteurs quickly arrived (and) we start probing ... many reinforcements arrived, ENSA, ski school, .. We found “N” first after 20 minutes or so (which) seem(ed) hours ...
He (was) got out without any (great problem) he is quite well (obviously shocked)
Then “C” (was located) at least another 25 minutes after …
She was in cardiac arrest and then resumed cardiac activity and (was put into) an artificial coma ... we remained hopeful. She died yesterday. C .. (It) is really not easy to live (with this). We're all in shock “C” ...... very hard to live. I can't stop myself re-playing the scenario in my head …
that could have been any of us .... We also think much (about) the family, and we also support very strongly our coatch .....
I have the impression of living a nightmare .. we ask a lot of questions ... but (this is) the way things are. And at the same time life must go on ....
I think that (what happened to) c is unfair, that I could be in her place ... but I am (here) ...
So from this account, they were definitely on the "Paquerettes", they knew it was "Hors Piste", they proceeded without proper avo equipment, and it was that top slope that released.
We know that two groups of 10 with two trainers skied the couloirs together and this seems to be very risky behaviour. It is clear that the group released the slope on top of themselves.
From other witnesses statements made here by Snowheads, the victims must have been swept down from the off-piste area "Paquerettes" and ended up on the pistes below (Crocus, Henri or Trolles) where the main continuing search can be seen taking place in the photos and videos.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 12-08-15 0:43; edited 2 times in total
the simple statement I have made is that it was a mistake but one which many others could have easily made - in low visibility, with reasonably deep snow everywhere in resort including on the marked and groomed pistes, taking a wrong turn following a sign post into an area which was technically closed but not immediately obviously so perhaps we should not treat this as the criminally stupid error others seem to believe it should be.
I'm sorry but....Bollocks. I also skied the Trolles piste (along with instructors, off-duty IIRC, well known to stewart woodward) a couple of minutes before the slide, after stopping at its entrance, and having a bit of discussion whether Trolles was a) open and b) safe to ski. Fortunately as the time we skied it there were no d!ckheads skiing above us in those highly unstable conditions. We then saw the search underway as we came back up the Aeroski, and the crown wall was clearly visible. The slide had come down from the slope above and caught people on the flat of the piste, where the search was in progress. There were also police out checking and measuring the crown wall of the slide the following day, in clear sight from bubbles as they passed overhead. The slide started well above the piste, and there is no way you can get to that slope "by acccident" off of the main descent. You have to make a very deliberate double back from the exit of the top-stations in a completely different direction from the main piste down from Toviere. There is no way those people were there unintentionally. In those conditions it was rash to ski with full avi gear (not least because of the danger you created for those on piste below), but without avi gear it was EXACTLY the criminally stupid act others believe it to be.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@SkiPresto, @GrahamN, so they skied an itineraire, after asking at the hut at the top and being given the ok, presumably an ideal opportunity for whoever was in the hut to say "you can ski it, but the avalanche risk is high at the moment, and it is off piste because no piste markers are out, have you guys got any avi gear?" - and none of that happened. We assume that the slide was started by the group, and they were dragged further down onto the normal pistes below, where many other punters were skiing on what used to be a piste but despite the signpost was apparently closed.
@GrahamN, if you believe it was dangly bits that many others could easily have made the mistake of ending up off piste without knowing it, I invite you to prove that I didn't meet at least 10 others on my descent who had done exactly that. Since you can't, and I can tell you that I quite definitely did see those people, even remembering some of the names of those we dragged out of very deep snow, we should assume that it is a mistake that many others could easily have made. Indeed, I made that mistake. Does that make me criminally stupid? You had a discussion about whether it was open, so presumably that wasn't as simple as it being immediately obvious to all and sundry.
@Mistress Panda,
sounds like it was lucky the toll from this was not worse, which is what you are saying. Making the same navigation mistake does not make you necessarily criminally stupid. But it is something to think about ...and you obviously have. Navigation is one issue. Equipment is another.
This is about leading a group of trainees in to a situation, as their trainer and mentor, when the training course is for racing, which is about 'safety'.
Not having ensured the basic safety element of a working transceiver on each member of the group is what has raised eyebrows, and caused a lot of professional embarrassment. Frankly it is unacceptable.
Being found in an avalanche in under 15 minutes improves your chances of survival. Nothing is guaranteed, but there were many people who joined the search that day - all available and trained in search because there were so many professionals in the semi-closed resort. Because there was no working transceiver, it could only be a physical probe. She almost certainly would have been found more quickly if she had had transceiver. That may or may not have changed the tragic outcome.
But it would have given her a different chance.
When I am next training for professional exams, I will be more assertive when asking the trainer about their powder decisions.
I too have been in this situation, where in retrospect and under exam conditions, the group were not necessarily equipped properly. Asking the question may of course cost me the exam, or at least the approval of my trainer. it is a difficult call, a judgement to make. That is the ethical issue. It should not really be up to the trainee to monitor this at all......
I wish the judgement had sent a stronger message to all ski training organisations about safety. Ski skills and techniques, ethics, and mountain safety (navigation, and equipment, group leading, route decisions etc), ALL make up the picture.
How many other trainees have been lead like this, and are now out there believing 'it's fine' with their non-professionally trained clients? The furore about this judgement is also about the attitudes of the ski industry in general, and the narrow obsession with racing and safety.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mistress Panda wrote:
@GrahamN, if you believe it was dangley bits that many others could easily have made the mistake of ending up off piste without knowing it, I invite you to prove that I didn't meet at least 10 others on my descent who had done exactly that. Since you can't, and I can tell you that I quite definitely did see those people, even remembering some of the names of those we dragged out of very deep snow, we should assume that it is a mistake that many others could easily have made. Indeed, I made that mistake. Does that make me criminally stupid? You had a discussion about whether it was open, so presumably that wasn't as simple as it being immediately obvious to all and sundry.
I get the impression that you're talking about different slopes, albeit in the same area...
After all it is free
After all it is free
I wasn't there, but I think the point is that if you're responsible for a group of people, riding off piste, then it's precisely how you exercised your responsibility which is in question. The other stuff is not relevant.
it doesn't matter that tourists may be on the same (dangerous) slope.
it doesn't matter if the slope is on or off piste.
it doesn't matter if they do or don't know their way around.
The person died because the person responsible for them failed to look after them.
I've seen fatalities in other types of rescue where young people's lives have been wasted because some "responsible" person has in fact been completely unsafe. It's one thing to risk your own life, but you can't risk the lives of people you're responsible for.
"Trainee" appears to mean "in guided party", so the guide (whatever their qualifications or none) has that responsibility. If they're negligent, as the court seems to suggest, then that's all there is to it. If the skier had killed herself that would be one thing, but in this case they were killed because those responsible for them failed. That's a very different thing.
If the "leader" ski-cut it, that suggests that they were aware of the risk. The report suggests they may have been riding one-by-one, although three people were caught. Perhaps the leader incorrectly assessed the slope. If they'd done that with safety gear and if the customers had signed up for off piste then that would perhaps be "one of the risks we accept". That didn't happen though. The failure to use standard safety gear sounds negligent to me.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@philwig, I can't disagree.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@clarky999, yes, what @Mistress Panda seems to fail to understand is that the search lines were where the slide finished up, on and around the Trolles piste (at the entrance to which we had our discussion as to whether it was safe to ski), which is easily accessible and was relatively safe until skied above. Those causing the avalanche were skiing the (much steeper) Paquerettes slope above that piste, which you cannot get onto by accident. Had they not been skiing that slope the avalanche was highly unlikely to have happened. In those conditions skiing Paquerettes was criminally stupid.
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