 Poster: A snowHead
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Our summer holidays always include 1-2 days summer skiing and, whilst we take out BMC Insurance for our walking & rock climbing during the trip, we have relied on Nat West travel insurance for the skiing.
I’ve now noticed that whilst Piste skiing and off-piste with a guide is still included, ‘glacier skiing’ involves paying an extra premium. So.... do our 1-2 days (probably at Hintertux this summer) count as ‘glacier skiing’ or piste skiing? Surely all European summer skiing is ‘glacier skiing’ 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The only reliable answer to your question will come from your insurer. We could define it however you like, but it's how your insurer defines it that matters. Give them a ring and ask them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@JanA, will your BMC policy not cover skiing?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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RBS policy says same thing. I did wonder about that at New Year. How do I know when I am glacier skiing if I am on piste and halfway down the hill?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Ghost Dog, I recall the Zermatt lift map put had shading marking the glacier runs.... Maybe that is the reason why?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's piste skiing, so long as you stay on piste. Unless you are on the VB or somesuch, in which case it's glacier skiing.
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@davidof, but, who ever suggested the VB was on piste, even though it may superficially look like it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If in doubt assume the worst case i/e it's a glacier since your insurance company will try to avoid paying by any means possible.
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I reckon whoever wrote the terms meant 'off piste glacial skiing' when they wrote 'glacial skiing' but as @primoz has intimated whether you'll find anyone at the insurers willing to confirm that in writing.
@davidof & @under a new name, forget VB the Chx questionable piste here is surely the top 100m of Point de Vue, as you drop of the shoulder you are on piste and on a glacier. There must be lots of other examples like that in the Alps (eg Tignes), so you would assume you are covered on them and so by extension on a pisted glacier in summer (or winter). Then again tyou know what they say about assuming.........
There used to be a clip on YouTube of a guy landing a jump in the park on a summer glacier area, ditching on landing and then disappearing as a snow bridge collapsed. He ended up upside down from memory suspended from his bindings and from the sound of his cries sh**ing bricks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pam w, depends on the policy, not all BMC cover skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'd guess most of us have been on glaciers. I've certainly been to Tignes, Les Deux Alpes and Saas Fee more than once (and probably others I've forgotten). I've never thought about extra insurance. They were all just normal pistes to me. Off piste would be a different story on glacial terrain. I'd never do that without a qualified guide.
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I doubt they know the difference. I doubt it would stand up in law, although I don't know if it's been tested. I can't see it being a cost driver or otherwise justifiable. Personally I'd never insure anything like that.
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You know it makes sense.
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Just a suggestion, but if you are worried then pay they extra few euros for Carte Neige (or whatever the Austrian equivalent is) insurance when you buy your lift pass. There is a possibility that you may end up double insured which means that each company will argue that the other one should pay, but then do not tell the BMC.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yes, double insurance can be an issue - you are always asked, if there's a claim, and as the insurance companies share data to guard against fraud it probably wouldn't be wise to tell them any lies.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm insured with NatWest packaged bank account insurance. I actually asked this question via email a few seasons ago as it's far from clear in the policy document and I was considering skiing the Vallée Blanche. The answer was somewhere along the lines that marked and patrolled pistes on a glacier count as piste skiing. Easy access regular off piste with a qualified guide is covered, including glacier territory such as Vallée Blanche, however glacier skiing such as that accessed by a helicopter or lengthy touring is only covered by paying an additional premium. Hope this helps. I'm assuming the policy hasn't changed since then, it's still underwritten by the same company AFAIK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Easy access regular off piste with a qualified guide is covered, including glacier territory such as Vallée Blanche, however glacier skiing such as that accessed by a helicopter or lengthy touring is only covered by paying an additional premium.
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Wow, I'm surprised by that differentiation. I know the VB is lift served, but even on the easiest route there are plenty of crevasses, ice bridges, etc, and the only realistic way out for an injured person is by chopper. At least with heli-skiing you've already paid for the chopper!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@laundryman, I'm sure someone was rescued from VB by snowmobile when I was in the area (I didn't end up skiing it myself, cost was prohibitive), but I guess that does depend whereabouts you fall. The people that went up there said it was as busy as a regular piste, but there were some parts where you had to ski slowly in single file.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In Tignes the bits of the glacier between piste poles are piste - the rest is glacier skiing - which is why you don't see ESF teaching off piste up there as you have to have a guides qualification to teach/lead on a glacier (and much the same for the other ski schools I must add).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| @laundryman, I'm sure someone was rescued from VB by snowmobile when I was in the area (I didn't end up skiing it myself, cost was prohibitive), but I guess that does depend whereabouts you fall. The people that went up there said it was as busy as a regular piste, but there were some parts where you had to ski slowly in single file. |
VB cannot be acessed by snowmobile - the upper sections near Italy used (25+ years ago) to be accessed by piste basher, back then you may have seen some snowmobiles around.
Heli rescues from the VB in case of accident are free - Paid for by France.
Heli rescues of Idiots can be charged in the thousands - a case a few years ago of a mountainer taking a boot off on the Col du Midi (flat area) because he had an itch, and dropped his boot down a crevase, cost him 3k€ to be rescued, story from the guys friend and backed up by the PGHM when at a first aid course - turns out they'd like to be able to charge a lot more people for being idiots.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thank you for all your responses.
| pam w wrote: |
| @JanA, will your BMC policy not cover skiing? |
There are different levels of BMC Insurance and the ‘Rock’ package covers all our other needs during the holiday. To upgrade to ‘Alpine & Ski‘ would cost us an additional premium of £45-£50. Insurance would need to be upgraded for the duration of the holiday, not just the 1-2 days at Hintertux making it a tad expensive per day!
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| I'm insured with NatWest packaged bank account insurance. I actually asked this question via email a few seasons ago as it's far from clear in the policy document and I was considering skiing the Vallée Blanche. The answer was somewhere along the lines that marked and patrolled pistes on a glacier count as piste skiing. ........... |
I will email Nat West for clarification; I was going to phone but, thanks, some sort of written evidence of the communication seems sensible. If there are any problems with the bank, I think we will be looking at whatever the standard pay-at-the-ticket-office Austrian equivalent is to Carte/Carre Neige. I’m sure there must be one.
Presumably the Terms & Conditions are written by someone in an office ...who probably needs to get out more. Piste skiing when there just happens to be glaciated terrain underneath would exclude many popular runs in the snow-sure winter resorts.
Incidentally, another definition question springs to mind following chocksaway’s comment about ESF and Tignes. What is meant by insured for “off piste with a guide” ? Is this, specifically, a member of the UIAGM? Surely not all ski instructors running basic off-piste trips are qualified Mountain Guides?
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| JanA wrote: |
| Surely not all ski instructors running basic off-piste trips are qualified Mountain Guides? |
In most (all?) European countries instructors are not qualified to teach/lead clients off piste on glaciated terrain unless they also have an appropriate mountain guide qualification. Even the top level instructor qualification excludes glaciated terrain.
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@rob@rar, I think here @JanA has diverted from the 'glacier' topic and is asking:
If you are skiing on (for example) the N/W insurance and you are in a ski class which starts to do a little basic off piste terrain, then you will be following a qualified instructor but not a qualified guide and so will you be in breach of you policy terms.
And I reckon the answer is probably yes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@midgetbiker, I would think you would still be insured if the instructor is qualified to a standard to teach off-piste skiing. I think I asked this question from MPI as part of a conversation I had with the owner Michael Pettifer. As long as your instructor is qualified to lead you off-piste there shouldn't be a problem.
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| midgetbiker wrote: |
@rob@rar, I think here @JanA has diverted from the 'glacier' topic and is asking:
If you are skiing on (for example) the N/W insurance and you are in a ski class which starts to do a little basic off piste terrain, then you will be following a qualified instructor but not a qualified guide and so will you be in breach of you policy terms.
And I reckon the answer is probably yes. |
Ah, apologies for speed reading. Yes, the answer is (mostly) yes, depending on whether the instructor has an off-piste qualification.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Idris,
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Heli rescues from the VB in case of accident are free - Paid for by France.
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Yep the VB is classified as high mountain, rescue is not charged for, but hospital etc would be !
@rob@rar, @midgetbiker, Yep, from what I have been involved with in Chamonix, thats correct, its a funny insurance setup, if your guide/instructor also takes you in a closed area, that can invalidate yours and their insurance as well!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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And the points go to @kieranm for the correct answer!
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You know it makes sense.
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Huzzah! Points!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Well done Kieranm
For bonus points can anyone answer clause 2 of my post. If you are high up in a nice snow-sure resort in winter, is the insurance company taking note of what might be underneath your feet in a hope of invalidating a claim?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Safest thing would be to roll down the hill far enough to be sure that you are off the glacier.
Is skiing in a shed covered?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Idris wrote: |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| @laundryman, I'm sure someone was rescued from VB by snowmobile when I was in the area (I didn't end up skiing it myself, cost was prohibitive), but I guess that does depend whereabouts you fall. The people that went up there said it was as busy as a regular piste, but there were some parts where you had to ski slowly in single file. |
VB cannot be acessed by snowmobile - the upper sections near Italy used (25+ years ago) to be accessed by piste basher, back then you may have seen some snowmobiles around.
Heli rescues from the VB in case of accident are free - Paid for by France.
Heli rescues of Idiots can be charged in the thousands - a case a few years ago of a mountainer taking a boot off on the Col du Midi (flat area) because he had an itch, and dropped his boot down a crevase, cost him 3k€ to be rescued, story from the guys friend and backed up by the PGHM when at a first aid course - turns out they'd like to be able to charge a lot more people for being idiots. |
I don't think the Pghm charge!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mountain rescue (as opposed to piste rescue) is free in France.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Oh no, I've always used Natwest insurance bundled in with the gold bank account given it covered off-piste skiing with a guide. I was on glaciated terrain last year in Cham and didn't even realise they had this exception! Balls.
I have asked about the premium for the Hazardous Activities optional benefit before for one of the other sports - and it was really really bl00dy expensive to add on and cheaper to buy 1 week of new insurance with a different provider inc extreme sport cover.
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FAQ
Unless you want us to say "nah don't worry, it's on-piste skiing". Which of course we can easily do, as noone from us will bother once something happens to you, and you are without coverage because of our "advices" 
