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Getting my sodding weight forward!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Such a fundamental thing but I just can't crack it. I am regularly at Hemel and have had great instructors but my body does not do what my brain instructs me to do. Also I think I have had so many instructors offering so many suggestions I'm now utterly confused anyway Confused So instead of a lesson today I just spent two hours at Hemel on a lift pass trying all the things I'd been told and I still can't do it!!

Possibly relevant information:

- I'm female, fairly average height and healthy BMI, and fairly fit (I'm a runner too)
- Pretty sure I have crap ankle flex (I have heel lifts fitted by Colin)
- I am not very flexible in general and have tight quads but very strong legs
- Intermediate, own boots (Atomic Live Fit 90 women's), own skis (K2 Lotta Luv 156s)

I'm going to be spending the day at Les Arcs on Saturday (yay!!) on a weekend Eurostar trip with my 8 year old - our first time on outside snow in nearly two years as baby #4 got in the way! So with almost unlimited space compared to Hemel at least, I want to make the most of it and try and crack this whole weight forward thing. I'll be taking my boots but hiring skis.

Anyway, things I have been told (and tried):

* Pushing shins into the front of the boots - I find this very hard to do. I try, and I can do it when stationary on the flat, but not when skiing. My body does not do it easily. Why not? What is wrong with me?

* "Sh*g, not sh*t" - this results in me feeling even more in the backseat than ever (not sure how true this is) and I don't feel as dynamic. This also utterly contradicts the first one here as I cannot get shins onto boots at all.

* Not sticking backside out as far - then I can't put pressure on my shins. Just doesn't work.

* Almost standing on tiptoes - this seems to be the most effective but feels like it would hurt after a while on a real mountain. And I find myself too bent over.

I also suffer very badly from thigh burn which I am sure is related, although I've been doing wall squats daily (when brushing my teeth!) since August - it remains to be seen if this has helped! Certainly there's been a big improvement in my ability to do wall squats, ha.

Anyway I'd love some suggestions to try out on the mountain this weekend Very Happy
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@sparklies,

How can you have crap ankle flex if you are a runner?

Try and stand in the centre of your boots and flex your ankles during the turn so your shins touch the front of your boots. Pushing your shins into the front of your boots all the time will prevent ankle flex as your ankles are already flexed wink

Stick your backside out - it works Very Happy

Get rid of the fixation of 'getting my weight forward' Try and stay centred all the time. This will mean bending your ankles, knees & hips during the turn. Look at any good skier, this is what they do.

I look forward to getting hammered for my suggestions but they work-which is all that matters wink
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Do you have any video? Thinking about the movements you make rather than a position you adopt might be one thing you can work on.
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Hands forward (not next to your hips) can be a great help too....

http://www.epicski.com/t/120906/does-hand-arm-position-matter

Quote:
As my clinician/examiner said: Dumb hands can mess up smart feet
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Completely at a skew have you seen an osteopath since you had the children? I find it much easier to ski in approximately the 'correct' position since my twisted pelvis and spine were largely corrected! I did not know I had a problem for many years until the pain kicked in in my 40`s. Probably not relevant but just a thought!
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Raising the arms can also push the hops backwards as the body instinctively counterbalances the extra weight in front if the centre of balance.
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Rather that Sh*g not sh*t try pulling your stomach in and clench your buttocks. This rolls your pelvis forwards and stops your bum sticking out. Also keep your hands where you can see them.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Quote:
"Sh*g, not sh*t" - this results in me feeling even more in the backseat than ever


That expression doesn't really work for girls as you're liable to end up flat on your back or on all fours.
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Could be gear, could be technique. Impossible to say which without more information. Heel lifts will open the ankle joint but may drop your weight back. I'd get a view from Colin on that. If it is gear then technique advice is going to be of limited benefit until you sort the gear issues.
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Backseat skiing is incredibly common, even amongst skiers who consider themselves fairly decent. How long have you been skiing? Like someone else said, video would be more useful but from what you are saying it may be that you need to work on your flexibility as a starting point. Obviously Colin gave you heel lifts for a reason and limited flexion in your ankles is likely to be it. Tightness in runners is very common and in my experience nearly always overlooked.

In terms of technique, arm position is important but just be careful, a lot of skiers are told this and as they push their arms forward, hips go back and negate the effort. Without seeing you it's difficult but remember it's wrong to think you should be lurching forward on your toes. You should be balanced just like you would be to play other sports; receiving a tennis serve for example. Balance is dynamic and is not a position but needs to be maintained throughout the turn. Think about flexing all those main joints, ankles, knees and don't forget your torso. As a rough guide the angle of your back should be roughly the same as the angle of your shins, though if your ankles are locked this may not be a helpful thought.

If you push your shins hard into your boots, you can often end up bracing against them moving you further back. It also creates tension in your legs which increases fatigue. You can try a practical experiment of putting a plastic spoon down the front of your boot. You want to be able to hold the spoon in place without breaking it. That's the sort of pressure you want. Don't do this for more than a short time though.
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@red 27, LOL

@sparklies, new boots seem to have solved that problem for me. My old ones had so much forward flex that I was sitting back to compensate. In the new ones I have a much more upright stance and it's so much easier to get my weight forward in the turns
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Go boarding?
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Stretching. .. not a runner but have fairly rubbish ankle flex. Has taken me ages to get forward as a result despite heel lifts. Major solution was relaxing, consciously standing tall after each turn and trying to keep my hips forward. Possibly being pregnant 12w also helped! Still not perfect though. Possibly my bindings were different this year - Elan sx race rented skis but no real idea is that.

Probably most important thing is to be relaxed and balanced.
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What worked for me, was to stop thinking about bending the knees, leaning forward or pushing into the boots all of which tended to make me THINK I was getting my weight forward but what I was actually doing was sticking my bum out and if anything shifting the weight further back. Instead I try to think of sort of slouching into my boots by just dropping my hips forward, tucking my bum in and keeping my upper body above hips them rather than way ahead of them. All goes to pieces the moment it gets too steep or crappy of course!
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Simple, simple...simple!

Consciously tuck your feet backwards under your bum.

That is all!
Weight forward, but body neatly stacked and centered...tick!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thank you everyone! Lots of things to think about. Sure enough quite a few suggestions are contradictory - no wonder I'm struggling. I guess it is just a case of finding what works for me as obviously it's different things for different people. So having lots of suggestions of things to try is fabulous as maybe, just maybe, one of them is my magic ticket.

@stewart woodward, I have no idea about ankle flex and running! I just run - admittedly with the odd sore knee which I think is ITB-related due to going too far too soon generally. I have been trying to put my shins in the front of my boots but although I can do it when not moving, it just doesn't happen when I'm actually skiing even with constant conscious effort. The only way it seems to happen (I think) is if I bend my knees and then I feel my backside is going out too far. Which feels like my weight is too far back and it then pulls my shins back a bit. I think this is why I am so confused and have such trouble doing it!

@rob@rar, No recent video unfortunately, and I am pretty sure I have improved since the last bit of workable video! I will try raising my hands - that's a drill I've not done recently at all.

@geoffers, Interesting thread! I know I did a bit better with no poles and hands on knees in some drills.

@CaravanSkier, I have seen osteopaths between children and a physio six months ago (who helped me rebuild my core) They all agree I have poor flexibility especially in my legs, but nobody has spotted anything out of alignment. It's a good thought though!

@OwenM, That's a new one to try for me, thank you!

@red 27, Laughing

@gorilla, I'm really hoping it is technique because getting lost down the gear maze is not something I want to do as it gets expensive! I had problems before I got the heel lifts with getting my weight forward (hence trying it) so I don't think taking them out will improve things. Colin did mention using different bindings at the time, which is partly why I'm going to be interested to see how I do with a rental ski - if it makes things easier or not.

@Ade57, "How long" is a tricky question as I can't really answer in the conventional "X weeks" due to the volume of lessons I've had at Hemel. Yet at the same time I've not had much mountain experience (a week in my 20s, then in the last just over two years - now late 30s - it's one week and one three day break) And of course the year off I had recently! I find when I put my arms forward that I end up leaning over and as you say, my backside goes out which probably doesn't help. And you're absolutely right in that when I force my shins forward, my balance goes back and it feels like I couldn't hold it for long (Hemel is not helpful for this sort of thing obviously!) Thank you for your thoughts on balance, you're absolutely right of course - although as always it's easier said than done when actually out there! This is partly why I'm looking forward so much to a mountain - usually by the time I've started doing something at Hemel, I've reached the bottom, or it's so crowded it's hard to manage.

@Pending, That's interesting - I hope it's not my boots, I really do, but I guess it could be. Maybe I'll try rental boots one time at the snow centre and see if anything changes unless of course they're exactly the same flex or something annoying!

@shoogly, No dark side for me! I tried it once and had more injuries in those two hours than in my entire skiing career!

@Randomsabreur, That's interesting about the consciously standing tall - I've done that on occasion and have felt a bit more stable. I actually skied (at Hemel, admittedly) until I was 11 weeks this time but the morning sickness and the button lifts was horrendous!

@Annie, Yes, exactly - the more I try and get my weight forward it makes it go back. And as you say, as soon as things get crappy I go back on old habits.

@rungsp, I've not tried that - has to be worth a go - thank you! I found I had some improvement by thinking of putting my knee over the front of my skis but for all I know I was sticking my backside out again!

Thanks everyone - this has been really useful. Any other thoughts welcome too!
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@rungsp, +1
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@sparklies,
Don't think, Do!
Not saying this is the problem because without seeing you ski it is impossible to know for sure. So many try and overthink what they are doing/trying to do. If you have, had so much advice from different instructors then it is something you should consider. Just relax enjoy the ride, skiing is a dance with the mountain it is not a competition it is not nuclear physics, it is FUN! When you run do you analyse every stride? Do you concentrate on how far you lean forward uphill, or into a turn? Do you think about your arm position, or do you just RUN ! ( really hoping you are a road or x-country runner now and not a 100-200m sprinter wink )

Training is great but your mind and body need a break from training, you can still play with turn radii and edge angles but playing is the key word it is not a lesson, Listening to music is a great way of getting the mind and the body to relax so find a song that inspires/motivates you in such a way that you think about the music/beat and not what your skis are doing.

So maybe give this a go the next few trips to Mnt Hemel. After that pick one thing to work on from all the lessons you have had do not think about anything else. If you are not sure what one point to work on I would suggets you have a word with Rob or Scott.


So for this weekend just play on the slopes with your 8yr old if you concentrate on anything it is bonding and having the most amazing time together.

Very Happy Very Happy


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 8-03-15 17:58; edited 1 time in total
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Keeping the hands up is very effective.

Maybe do a cockpit check before each run,
Work up from the bottom,
soles of the feet, feel for where the pressure is, is it slightly forward,
Feet hip width apart
Ankles flexed,
Shins gently pressing the boots,
Knees flexing and with a space between
Hips square and flexing
stomach, strong, navel to spine.
Back round
Shoulders round
Arms round and still
Hands up where you can see them
Wrists doing all the work
Brain, engaged, now what's the focus this pitch


I was helped by an instructor who asked me to focus on where the pressure was on the sole of the foot, and then talked about it on the lift, repeat.

Ice skating, snow blading and Nordic skiing can all help cure back seat skiing, as can a bit of on hill video analysis.
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I found good pole planting was the key to reaching down the slope to start the turn. When used to that it was so much easier as that was all my little brain could process and the rest just happened.
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Quote:

@gorilla, I'm really hoping it is technique because getting lost down the gear maze is not something I want to do as it gets expensive!


I'm not saying it is definitely gear. I'd just keep an open mind. For almost everyone its going to be technique. For a minority, like the guy in the pink pants a month or so ago, it's almost entirely a gear problem. When someone comes on here saying "no matter what I do, I'm in the backseat" it is worth exploring gear in addition to coaching.

Quote:

I had problems before I got the heel lifts with getting my weight forward (hence trying it) so I don't think taking them out will improve things. Colin did mention using different bindings at the time, which is partly why I'm going to be interested to see how I do with a rental ski - if it makes things easier or not.


I wouldn't suggest taking heel lifts out unless a fitter suggests it and I am sure CEM put them in there for a reason. The guy more than knows his stuff. As I mentioned on the pink pants thread a while back I removed my lifts out of frustration and shortly afterwards managed to tear my right calf. I'm sure the two are connected. However, having a lot of heel lift in the boot will affect how you balance. There are things you can do elsewhere in the set up either to the forward lean on the boot or to binding delta that may improve the way you stand on your skis. If your issues persist and instruction does not make a difference, I think it is worth a chat with a professional about alignment.
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Thanks all!

@speed098, To be honest, I do agree with you (and yes, more of a 10K to half marathon kind of girl!) The only reason I'm anxious to fix it is because I suspect it is behind my thigh burn issues. Obviously this doesn't happen at Hemel because it's not long enough, but I found as soon as I was out on the mountain back in 2013 I couldn't go more than a minute or so on steeper slopes without needing to stop because it hurt so much. If I only ever skied at Hemel or on green slopes all day I wouldn't worry much at all as I'm still enjoying myself! But I feel I'm missing out on so much by being in that much pain AND having to stop all the time. I'm hoping all the wall squats I've done will buy me extra time plus I'm fitter now than I was last time, but still.

Don't worry, I won't spend the entire time trying to figure it out whilst I'm there, I want to have fun too! But it's a good opportunity to have long runs to try things out as well. My next trip isn't until January when we're all (six of us!) spending a week in Tignes. I'll probably get some private lessons with my husband when we're out there too. I keep meaning to book another clinic with Inside Out - I did a few years back (with Scott) and found it really useful, but having a baby got in the way of things!

@jbob, Thanks for that! I do some of that already before each run but it all goes to crap within the first turn..! There's stuff in there I don't do though *makes a mental note* I should try out the refurbed ice rink at Hemel really! I keep promising the girls we'll go!

@Jake43, That's interesting! I've never really cracked pole planting mainly because I've never really tried to either. I know what to do, it's just a bit ungainly. It's difficult to justify it at Hemel other than as a "thing to learn" because it's not steep enough to warrant it obviously. But if it's helped you get further forward maybe I should practice more with it.

@gorilla, You're absolutely right. I found the pink pants guy thread really interesting as like most people I was also sure it was going to be technique and I was really surprised when it wasn't. However as I haven't been skiing long, I can remember using rental boots and skis and still having the thigh burn, and being told I'm too far back with rental ones as well. That said, perhaps it's a case of most boots (and/or skis, bindings etc) would do that for me but a particular boot/ski/binding might fix my issue. Colin did suggest a particular brand of binding I should try, I seem to recall but I can't remember what it was now as it was a good 18 months ago!
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Tiptoes/Shagging not shitting are both terrible advice, and I hate it when I hear instructors using them. Being too forwards is as bad as being too back, and tilting/pushing your pelvis forwards will hinder your vertical and lateral movements as well as removing any flex at your hips/waist, which is what allows us to be centred.

Paul explains some ideas about stance really well in this article. http://www.paullorenzclinics.com/#!the-truth-about-stance/c977

Try doing some little hops in the transitions between turns to check you're centred, also perhaps try moving from as low as you can get whilst centred, to as tall as you can get through the turn (tallest at transition), I find that really helps people feel what their range of movement is, and which joints they can use to affect their fore/aft balance.

For exercises that will help you, wall sits are good, but squats are better, as skiing involves a lot of movements, exercises training for it should as well.
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Large breast implants?
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jimmer wrote:
also perhaps try moving from as low as you can get whilst centred, to as tall as you can get through the turn (tallest at transition), I find that really helps people feel what their range of movement is, and which joints they can use to affect their fore/aft balance.

.


This one helped me more than any other ! Very Happy
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I've always found hands forwards has always helped
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I agree the "standing tall" helps a lot and is easier to get your head round than being "forward". There's a Warren Smith video where he talks about having "thighs high" (ie much nearer vertical than most people have). That made a big impression on me. I have a useful aid to getting it right - if I get it wrong my left knee hurts because it's not up to having my weight hanging on it. So I stand up to make it feel more comfortable.
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Having too much to think about doesn't work for me so cockpit check would end up with it all going wrong. If (when) I find it going a bit wrong - usually chopped up stuff, I use a 1 word cue (up) to remind myself. Used that sort of thing in my competitive fencing days - positive command, simple enough for stresses/adrenaline filled brain to deal with. Skied this year without wall sits or similar in advance for various reasons but was less sore because most of my pre ski exercise had been yoga/stretching (and riding) so I had some more ankle flex available than in previous years.

Agree that forward can end up with the wrong bits forward (my classic too tense squatty position with shoulders/chest well forward and behind well back, probably with weight on heels).

From the fencing background I'm pretty good at knowing where my weight is in relation to where it should be - the issue was flexibility allowing me to get my weight into that position- I generally liken my untrained flexibility to that of a steel girder...
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Randomsabreur wrote:
Having too much to think about doesn't work for me so cockpit check would end up with it all going wrong. If (when) I find it going a bit wrong - usually chopped up stuff, I use a 1 word cue (up) to remind myself. Used that sort of thing in my competitive fencing days - positive command, simple enough for stresses/adrenaline filled brain to deal with. Skied this year without wall sits or similar in advance for various reasons but was less sore because most of my pre ski exercise had been yoga/stretching (and riding) so I had some more ankle flex available than in previous years.

Agree that forward can end up with the wrong bits forward (my classic too tense squatty position with shoulders/chest well forward and behind well back, probably with weight on heels).

From the fencing background I'm pretty good at knowing where my weight is in relation to where it should be - the issue was flexibility allowing me to get my weight into that position- I generally liken my untrained flexibility to that of a steel girder...


Squatty position is fine as long as you have appropriate flex in all your joints, standing up tall is well overrated, you can't get any performance from a tall position.
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Standing taller allows to ski long days without even remembering that you have legs that might be getting tired. Pretty much regardless of the terrain. It was one of the ski revelations for me. I can have very long days and feel very tired at the end but my legs can still keep going.
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Quote:

Squatty position is fine as long as you have appropriate flex in all your joints, standing up tall is well overrated, you can't get any performance from a tall position.



Must admit I get a bit confused by the "stand tall" thing - I tend to agree that, all things being equal, getting lower is better. A mate of mine has always made the point that when you are low and flexed you have lots of options to react to the snow, terrain etc - it's easy to quickly make a edge change or course correction.

I THINK that the "stand tall" advice is supposed to be an antidote to bum out / weight back stance rather than arguing against being flexed, centred and low. I think it helps to think about getting forward (from back to centre) by pushing your knees over your toes (rather than bending at the waist) and sinking lower by flexing ankle / knee / hip so the weight remains over the arch/ball of your feet. If I'm not happy with where my weight is then I will consciously check I am doing that before I set off.

Skiing with my kids and and some friends' kids who are a bit newer to skiing I found myself saying "knees over toes" to get their weight centred and "hug the fat man" to get the arms forward and rounded and shoulders relaxed and rounded. Gets giggles too which never goes amiss
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Quote:

Standing taller allows to ski long days without even remembering that you have legs that might be getting tired

Again that is compared to hanging back on your boots. Being low and centred isn't tiring
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It's either going to be mechanical - a problem with your boots, or lack of flexibility in your joints or muscles - or perhaps poor posture or core strength making it hard to maintain a good position OR it's a question of co-ordination and doing what you think you should be going. A good coach should be able to identify which, because without understanding the cause it's hit and miss trying to find a solution.

I think my favourite phrase to suggest good posture is "stand up from your knees", which if you do it makes perfect sense, whereas benze knees etc encourage other problems.
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Ade57 wrote:

If you push your shins hard into your boots, you can often end up bracing against them moving you further back. It also creates tension in your legs which increases fatigue. You can try a practical experiment of putting a plastic spoon down the front of your boot. You want to be able to hold the spoon in place without breaking it. That's the sort of pressure you want. Don't do this for more than a short time though.


I'm intrigued by this one.
It was explained to me some years ago that, in order to 'drive the ski', you need to flex the ankle (and thus the boot) by pushing with the shin.
Despite wearing gel shin protectors, I have blistered my shins on more than one occasion doing this because the only way I can get any visible flex in my boots (Salomon X-Wave 90 so they're not exactly stiff!) is to push bloody hard. Any plastic spoon placed between my shin & the front of my boot would be crushed in a moment.
It's always uncomfortable (and sometimes downright painful) but I put up with it on the basis that it's necessary.

Am I causing myself unnecessary pain for no gain, are my boots too stiff - or does Rule 5 apply? Toofy Grin
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jimmer wrote:
Randomsabreur wrote:
Having too much to think about doesn't work for me so cockpit check would end up with it all going wrong. If (when) I find it going a bit wrong - usually chopped up stuff, I use a 1 word cue (up) to remind myself. Used that sort of thing in my competitive fencing days - positive command, simple enough for stresses/adrenaline filled brain to deal with. Skied this year without wall sits or similar in advance for various reasons but was less sore because most of my pre ski exercise had been yoga/stretching (and riding) so I had some more ankle flex available than in previous years.

Agree that forward can end up with the wrong bits forward (my classic too tense squatty position with shoulders/chest well forward and behind well back, probably with weight on heels).

From the fencing background I'm pretty good at knowing where my weight is in relation to where it should be - the issue was flexibility allowing me to get my weight into that position- I generally liken my untrained flexibility to that of a steel girder...


Squatty position is fine as long as you have appropriate flex in all your joints, standing up tall is well overrated, you can't get any performance from a tall position.


Not the way I do it... I'd say you need to be able to do tall and relaxed before you get lower.

I tend to get stuck in a bit of a ball type posture when stressed and "forget" to stand up between turns. In case of limited suppleness taller gives more chance of weight being over the whole foot. As my skiing and physique evolve my cue word will to - usually there is 1 key thing the brings everything else into place.
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Quote:

Am I causing myself unnecessary pain for no gain


Yes - actually worse than that, probably detrimental to be applying that much forward pressure, you are aiming to be centred so light forward pressure is correct. You don't necessarily need to be visibly flexing your boots just feeling light pressure on your shins.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
never summer wrote:
Standing taller allows to ski long days without even remembering that you have legs that might be getting tired. Pretty much regardless of the terrain. It was one of the ski revelations for me. I can have very long days and feel very tired at the end but my legs can still keep going.


Of course all this is relative, it's possible to be too low, but in general that I find that most upper intermediates are in too tall a stance to use the ski effectively. Yes, a lower stance involves more muscular effort, so if you want to skid around the pistes all day and not expend any energy a tall stance is great. If you want to get any performance out of your ski, you need to have at least a bit of flex in all your joints.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
It's possible to have shins pushed into the front of your boots AND have your weight too far back; I was playing round with it on a drag lift today. Bum stuck out. Hope nobody noticed. wink

Most of the time (this was easy piste cruising, but I'd like to think I wasn't skidding too much) I couldn't feel much pressure either on the front or the back of the boot.

Because I was skiing alone I didn't stop much, and it was my first day skiing for some time. No thigh burn at all but some twinges from the knee when I allowed myself to get knocked back a bit.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Try doing Bosu ball squats instead of wall squats. It'll work you just as hard as the wall but force you into a centered stance, or you fall off the ball. Start with 3 sets of 15 held for 3 seconds each.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Red Leon, sounds like your boots are not stiff enough - your shin pressure just flexs the too-soft boot, rather than transferring through to the ski
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