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Boot fitting - 'Standard' vs 'Custom' fitting

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hi All, I'm trying to work out the real difference in both a) boot fit results and b) in value of service between a 'standard' shop fitting and a 'custom' fitting.

Most ski boot shops (UK context here) seem to provide a service where they heat 'mould' the manufacturers boot liner to you which usually comes free of charge if you buy the boot from them. However one specific shop which i've been pointed towards in W London provides a 'biochemical analysis', 'pressure mapping scans' and 'custom orthotic insoles' and liberates you of £40 for an 'assessment' and £120 for the insole production.

So I'm feeling a little like i might have walked into one of Harry Enfields 'I saw you coming' franchises by paying £160 to get something possibly only marginally superior to a free service which also positions itself as a custom boot fitting. I'm not meaning to cast aspersions on this particular shop's clearly high end service in any way, which i've not yet had the pleasure of experiencing, however that's quite some difference in service cost.

Any enlightenment from an unbiased source to help me understand the real difference between these services and to help me choose where best to get my boots fitted would be appreciated.

Thanks
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You are obviously talking about Profeet.

Profeet and Solutions4feet are the only two places in the south of England that I (and many, many other snowheads) would ever go to.

By all means save that money, go to Eliis Bring'em or Snow&Rocks and you might well get lucky.
Don't think you will save £160 and get an equivalent product though, because if you don't buy a custom foot bed it is never, ever going to be the same product.
Note that I said you "might well get lucky"

Go to CEM at solutions4feet or to Profeet and you can rest assured that you will get lucky.

Your skiing holiday is going to cost how much?
What is the value of good fitting boots that enable you to ski to your full capability, pain free?

You are quibbling about the price difference? Really?
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It's not that I'm solely (excuse the pun) quibbling on price, rather I am trying to understand the difference between the two processes of fitting. An expensive 'high quality' boot liner seems to go straight into the bin with what i learned over the phone with profit (oops typo, 'profeet' i mean Wink! ) and I was impressed with the talk and knowledge from a seemingly experienced chap in 'Elis Bring'em' and wondered how a 'heat and mould' fitting could work or not (have skied this way for 30 years without too much issue). Yeah it's not too much £ at the end of the day, but i'm just questioning with the aim of learning what they actually do that's all.
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EB at Tamworth did a good job on fitting for me
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@jbk12,
Quote:

An expensive 'high quality' boot liner seems to go straight into the bin


that's only if you go for the custom liner option (see thread I posted on this a few days ago asking questions about these as I'm thinking of going down the custom liners route).

I've been to profeet before and I have one of their custom insoles (not liners), which were at the time put in my existing (old) boot. The insole made a great deal of difference. At the time I wasn't looking for new boots just a bit more control and feel, so rather than going for the new boot option I just got custom insoles put in my existing boots.

THe custom insole like you say costs around £120 i believe at profeet. I'm not sure if they charge another £40 on top for fitting, although they seem to have confirmed that to you. So unless you go for the custom liner (about another £200) then you will get the standard liner with your new boot, so nothing thrown away (except the insole).
You're OP was perfectly reasonable, and didn't come across as quibbling, you're right to question these things. I certainly wouldn't say going to other providers is a question of "getting lucky". It just depends on your feet and how much you are willing to pay for a better service. My GF has boots from Snow and Rock and loves them. I think probably the majority of "tourist" skiiers who go there are very happy with their purchase. Some of the bootfitters at Profeet used to work for Snow and Rock I believe. So I would take what @rungsp says about getting lucky and quibbling with a pinch of salt.

Having said that I've been very happy with my custom insoles that Profeet made for me which is why I am considering going back now for a new boots there (or solutions4feet) and upgrading to custom liners. But it all depends on how much value you place on boot fit. Like you say it is "high end" but they will spend more time with you than one of the high street shops.
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I think the main differences between some of the specialists and the more high-street fitters is that boot fitting is all they do. If they get it right people will feel the extra cost is justified and recommend them to friends/come back in a few years for their next pair. If they get it wrong people won't come back and they won't be long for this world.

I bought my current boots from ProFeet and feel I can see where the money went. It sounds like they have got a little up themselves with the marketing waffle but they spend quite a lot of time looking at not just the size of your feet but also their shape and how you spread your weight through them and base their boot recommendations on that analysis. From there if they believe the standard liner will work for you they won't try to see you a custom one you don't need, etc.

As an example of my boot fitting one of my insoles was re-formed 3 times, not because it didn't feel fine to me but because the fitter wasn't happy with it. Would you get that in Snow & Brigham...?
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I think it comes down to your view of skiing. The vast majority of skiers go for a week or maybe two each year and don't really concern themselves much with skiing otherwise except for planning their next trip. They want to have a fun time skiing around, making lots of stops for coffees and long lunches etc. Significantly progressing their skiing s not a major consideration and not many take lessons or other steps to improve technique. It's just a fun holiday and when you watch them ski there's not much skill or technique in evidence. This accounts for the vast majority of skiers ypu see in resorts, probably 95% plus.

There is a relatively small number of skiers (many of them on here) who have reached a point where they have genuinely advanced their skiing or have imminent aspirations to do so. They have started to feel the benefits of their equipment and know what happens under their feet and can manipulate their skis somewhat.

I know these are generalisations but they roughly work. If you fall into the former category, the bootfitters at the shops everyone knows fit the bill. Few of them will have received much more than a few days training and their brief is to provide a reasonable fit but with the emphasis on comfort rather than performance. It works for most skiers who, without meaning to be harsh, talk a good game but couldn't really tell the difference between one ski and another etc. As long as they don't shy away from getting footbeds made, the job is fine and what they need.

If you fall into the latter category, you will definitely notice the difference in performance of a truly well fitted boot. I've been to solutions4feet for my last 3 pairs. Colin is a highly trained and highly skilled technician who knows what will work for your feet and your skiing as long as you are honest and accurate with your self portrait. They are still comfortable but not in the way the former are. Performance is the primary objective and additional visits for tweaks may well be necessary. It's not a gimmick; it's not a Harry Enfield 'I saw you coming.' It works and it makes a massive difference but in my opinion it's not necessarily what everyone needs.

It boils down to where you see yourself!
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@Ade57, +1
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Quote:

If you fall into the former category, the bootfitters at the shops everyone knows fit the bill.

Maybe not. I entirely agree with the distinction between once a week "holiday skiers" and those keen enough to take steps to improve their skiing.

However, it's also worth pointing out that some holiday skiers have problematic feet. I have a friend whose partner is a keen skier and she has tried several times to "get to like it" but suffered agonies with boots, even with good hire shops prepared to try different models. I advised her to go to see Colin at Solutions4Feet but Colin told her he had no solution for her feet, and that only "custom made" Dale Boots would do (I think the problem was a very high instep). They are super expensive, but she decided to follow Colin's advice and went elsewhere to get them fitted.

When Colin fitted me with boots he had to deform the shell to make room for my bunions... Embarassed My bunions might have been a problem whether I was a "holiday skier" or a dead keen enthusiast.

However, I do think that someone who has been perfectly happy for many years with normally fitted boots and skis the way they want to ski (whether that be well or badly) would be a bit daft to spend twice as much as it would cost to go to Snow and Rock (and possibly three times as much as it would cost to go to Decathlon wink )
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@pam w, Good point about the odd feet, bunions etc.
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I realise that what I wrote above could be construed as a criticism of Colin (as he had no solution). Not at all - quite the reverse. If my friend had not gone to an expert fitter who wouldn't sell her the "wrong" boots, she'd probably never have found out what the problem is. She is never likely to be a good skier, but at least she might now be one who enjoys a nice potter in the sun and a drink on a terrace with a view of Mont Blanc.





In terribly expensive boots!!!
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jbk12 wrote:
Hi All, I'm trying to work out the real difference in both a) boot fit results and b) in value of service between a 'standard' shop fitting and a 'custom' fitting.

Most ski boot shops (UK context here) seem to provide a service where they heat 'mould' the manufacturers boot liner to you which usually comes free of charge if you buy the boot from them. However one specific shop which i've been pointed towards in W London provides a 'biochemical analysis', 'pressure mapping scans' and 'custom orthotic insoles' and liberates you of £40 for an 'assessment' and £120 for the insole production.


I have bought my first boots in resort using an experienced but no frills service, and also the full bells and whistles service from Profeet. I can assure you the Profeet service is worth every penny!

I was having issues with the n resort boots, so took them to Profeet. They confirmed and proved the in resort boots were 1.5 sizes too big Embarassed They made me a custom footbed which kept me going for another 3 seasons.

As I was impressed with my 1st visit, I went back for new boots ( in their end of season sale) and to use their bio mechanical analysis. I did not tell them, but for a long time I kept on catching the outside edge of my right ski - my wife blamed my technique Sad Profeet identified that I had more pressure on my right leg (possibly one leg slightly longer) and pressure was not in the right place (front to back) on both feet. They also did the standard foot size measurements and offered me 3 types of boot. I ended up with the Hawx 100. The stiffness selected was based on my stated ability so you have to be honest! When repeating the bio mechanical test, in the new boots after the foot beds were inserted everything was as it should be! They do guarantee the fitting for the life of the boot, I.e. So long as you don't trash the boots you can go back to have them adjusted, e.g. You develop bunions Puzzled

So to conclude, if you have unusually shaped feet or you want to be confident, use them, it's wort the extra dosh.
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pam w wrote:
I realise that what I wrote above could be construed as a criticism of Colin (as he had no solution). Not at all - quite the reverse. If my friend had not gone to an expert fitter who wouldn't sell her the "wrong" boots, she'd probably never have found out what the problem is. She is never likely to be a good skier, but at least she might now be one who enjoys a nice potter in the sun and a drink on a terrace with a view of Mont Blanc.





In terribly expensive boots!!!



My experience has been that the true professionals will tell you straight when they don't have a solution. They value their hard won reputation too much to sell you something they know won't work. I have really difficult feet, and have gone from naively buying totally unsuitable boots (several times) to having "very experienced" boot fitters throw their hands up in despair once they see and measure my feet.

Colin also told me the same thing, he couldn't help and it saved me the cost of what would have been a wasted trip over to see him. He told me the only two options available to me, I'd already had one of them but he couldn't source the other ones. But at least I knew what I was looking for.

So I popped over to The Bootroom in Chamonix and I have fabulous new boots and very happy feet Happy In total it cost me more to get the boots than I paid for my upcoming trip next week, but after 10 years looking for boots that fit it's worth it

What really impressed me was they would sell me just the shells without the standard liner if I was going for the custom one, they wanted me to ski in the shells using my old custom liners to test the shell for performance before moulding new liners AND best of all they didn't charge for fitting - I paid just the cost of the boots!
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jbk12 wrote:

So I'm feeling a little like i might have walked into one of Harry Enfields 'I saw you coming' franchises by paying £160 to get something possibly only marginally superior to a free service which also positions itself as a custom boot fitting. I'm not meaning to cast aspersions on this particular shop's clearly high end service in any way, which i've not yet had the pleasure of experiencing, however that's quite some difference in service cost


This. I'm not a fan for regular folks, and not been impressed even for the troublesome, others can do a good job for far less. Not s&r temps but good local shops are perfectly capable IMO and I would never shell out for this despite having relatively tricky feet. However if you aren't happy with an existing fit and have money to burn, go for it.

Aj x
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If I remember I've had boots from; Centre Sport (Leeds), Wilderness Ways (Leeds), Nevis Sport, Ellis Brigham, Seven Sports (Leeds) and Colin at Solutions for Feet. (I've possibly missed some out)

I don't have problem feet and Colin used an existing custom footbed from my previous boots, but he did also provide some thinner Zipfit liners.

The difference in feel between those boots and all the previous ones was huge. When I need a new pair, I'll take a day off work again and head down there.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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As mentioned above, you appear to be talking about profeet... Their custom insoles are very good, I bought my own boots for the first time this year, and after wearing them around the house to help bed them in, they felt a touch tight. But they are designed to be skied in, so i went to the snow centre to try them, found them far too tight, took them back in and they completely changed not only the insole but also the base of the boot free of charge!

Highly recommended!
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Great to see all those positive comments about Profeet.

I'd back up this comment from runsp above:
'By all means save that money, go to Eliis Bring'em or Snow&Rocks and you might well get lucky.'

This video might be useful for explaining why the Profeet service is more expensive and what you can expect when you go in:


http://youtube.com/v/33F5uSFhkUE&list=PLDHjrXVnM9Tdes_Gj_fpUSED00gQs0Zk7
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Most serious people here either use Profeet (London), Solutions4Feet (Bicester)... I know some who also use Sole Bootlab (Chamonix).

I think the interesting thing about going to see Colin (Solutions4Feet) for me was his appreciation of problems I didn't realise needed fixing.

I think the difference between going to say Ellis Brigham or S&R, is that you have somebody who has been trained on how to use the machine that makes your boots fit better. When you go to see somebody like Colin (I can't speak for Profeet), you're seeing somebody who has an understanding both of your feet, of ski boots, and of all the products that are available to help. Another difference is that specialist boot shops usually hold a far wider range of boots than the generic stores.

When I went to see Colin, he instantly spotted that my boot footbeds that had been done by a fairly generic ski shop were flawed. They'd done the impression whilst I was standing up. I suffer from collapsing arches. So during the process of them taking my impressions, my arches had collapsed so the final impression did not support my arch in it's normal position. Colin replaced that footbed with a vacuum formed footbed which is done with your foot hanging loose - so it supports your arch fully. (The guys who fitted my boot, at a shop in Livigno, complimented what they considered a very nice footbed).

The second thing he noticed was that I had a slightly limited range of movement in my foot and this meant I was using a bigger boot than necessary. With more range of movement he felt I could fit into a smaller BSL which would give me better control. So he sold me some rollers along with showing me some exercises which have successfully aided my range of movement in my feet. I also feel it's given my feet a bit more springiness which benefits my skiing. The generic ski shop didn't notice any of this.

He also noticed that the boot I'd been sold was the wrong stiffness for me. I bought a stiffer boot in resort and oh what a difference that made!

I actually got those boots fitted by a great shop in Livigno, Italy. They did a lot of work to the boot. Where my 'generic' shop has just made the boot hot, put my foot in it, then cooled it down; the shop in Livigno had checked for pressure points in the boot and stretched it additionally in some places using tools in the workshop. This has improved the fit and prevented some tightness I had always just assumed was the nature of ski boots.


Short Version: Basically the generic ski shops don't really know what they're talking about. They have a machine and they do a 2-day course on how to use it then they take a ski boot from their limited range and make it a little more personalised to you than it was already. They don't actually know much about feet, and they don't do anything to the boot beyond making it hot, putting you in it, and cooling it down. When you go to a specialist, they actually know what they're talking about, will help you choose the right boot for all your considerations, and they'll customise it to whatever extent is necessary to make it fit you properly.

Really short version: Don't bother with any of the generic shops which just have a footbed machine and an oven. Go to a specialist.
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Nice words for Colin. I think he's brilliant too
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I think it depends on circumstances. If you've got average feet then there probably isn't much value in paying the extra. I got boots from S&R and they're mostly fine, although I sometimes suffer pain in severe cold when visibility is poor (think I'm clenching my feet). However I'm prepared to have slight issues 10% of the time against the cost of driving a 320 mile roundtrip (£40 in fuel alone) plus an extra £200 on fitting. Especially as I know people that have done that and still had issues.

That said, at some point I'm going to be looking for a stiffer boot and may make the trip, mainly due to DP's point about variety.
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So threads die after 2 1/2 years? Or are they just in induced commas?
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@Mosha Marc,
Quote:

I don't have problem feet and Colin used an existing custom footbed from my previous boots, but he did also provide some thinner Zipfit liners.

The difference in feel between those boots and all the previous ones was huge.
+1
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SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
If you've got average feet then there probably isn't much value in paying the extra.


I would agree with this unless you are really at the expert end of any sport when subtle differences make a difference and you know what you want and are looking for. If you are 'standard' then custom fitting will deviate little from the standard baseline to get a proper fit. I'd say this applies to any customer fit sports equipment from ski boots to golf clubs.
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I don't think there is such thing as average feet!
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moseyp wrote:
I don't think there is such thing as average feet!


+1
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I doubt there are two feet the same anywhere but I'm guessing (i.e. I don't know) that the shoe / boot product manager works on a standard deviation to see what fits most people most of the time and that then becomes the 'standard' size. I assume it's then how far you deviate away from that.
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Boots fitted by Alain Baxter.... Fantastic.

I can now ski like the Baxters.... The soup that is Happy
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@GlasgowCyclops, Laughing Laughing
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Here to post on this very important zombie thread

4 tiers of boots:

Rental/charity shop/eBay slop - You might get lucky but probably not
Chain store/boot saleman boots - You get the "illusion" or "theatre" of custom fit without probably much of the benefit. Better chance of getting lucky by stacking your odds, midweek appt with their boot trainer etc
Self fitting - e.g. trial and error somewhere like Decathlon or buy&return from internet stores. Not totally crazy IF you know what you are doing, have a friend to do shell check, are disciplined enough to size down etc etc. Most people lack anything like the level of expertise to pull this off succssfully but if you do results probably better than Saturday boy in the chain store.
Pro-fitting - If you really care, get a named recommendation from someone you trust and trust them. Warning if you are going off recommended store get a recommended individual I have had boots made worse by a pro-fitter (not in the UK) who was off on his own little programme of how to make boots better and NOT listening to my feedback, fortunately a named guy reversed the damage.
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SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
I think it depends on circumstances. If you've got average feet then there probably isn't much value in paying the extra. I got boots from S&R and they're mostly fine, although I sometimes suffer pain in severe cold when visibility is poor (think I'm clenching my feet). However I'm prepared to have slight issues 10% of the time against the cost of driving a 320 mile roundtrip (£40 in fuel alone) plus an extra £200 on fitting. Especially as I know people that have done that and still had issues.


You say that but are you sure you have good feet? Or do you just not know the issue yet? And could skiing be creating an environment for the issue to develop to where it does become a problem?

Skiing is stressful on your body and seeking the advice of a pro could be beneficial even if you don't think you need it.

With my feet, I knew I had collapsing arches. I knew I had plantar fasciitis. But I didn't know I had a lack of range of movement that inhibited the way I could use my boots. Colin did recognise this, and helped me get to full flexibility.

I'm not just selling his business but having been I think there is every justification to just see what he thinks
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I think a lot of it is down to cash.
If you have the bucks then why not go for a fully fitted custom jobby. It is irrelevant whether this is best 'value' as the whole process is what you want or require.
It is part of your enjoyment with the activity of skiing.

I've noticed the quantity of local skiers out here who have that level of needs and attention to their boot fitting is minimal (excluding the racers!)
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@dp, read my post again. I'm not doubting that a proper fitting from a proper expert would benefit me, just that for the minute I'm not willing to pay £300 to travel for a fitting.

My feet are crap btw, wide and with high arch, but ant damage is more likely to be coming from the shoes I wear everyday than it is from a set of boots I wear for a few ski trips each year.
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@flangesax, I skied for 30 years without boot fitting, nor a custom insole. But in moderate pain every single day I did. Insoles helped. Fitting helped better.

@SnoodlesMcFlude, err, patently, I presume you go skiing? Get fitted on a ski trip? not ideal as it's not necessarily easy to get tweaked, but still...??
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flangesax wrote:

I've noticed the quantity of local skiers out here who have that level of needs and attention to their boot fitting is minimal (excluding the racers!)


Pretty much the same here and generally far better skiers. French friend I ski with has rear entry boots and one pair of ten year old skis. She finds my collection highly amusing. She's twice the skier I am so I can't really argue. I got my last pair from Jacques Sports here, good Boots but no custom footbeds or liners, Cédric really knows his stuff, other customers at that time were racers and moniteurs.
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Nothing wrong with 10 year old skis. My Mantras did 6 seasons and if I could have direct replaced them I would have.
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@flangesax, @Claude B, quick question, have you ever bought a pair of boots on a Saturday at a Snow and Rock or Ellis Brigham in the UK?
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@ansta1, I've never bought any for myself but I did buy a pair for my daughter at EB at MK, not sure what day. However it was just before she did her BASI1 and she had more Idea than the guy serving what a good fit should feel like.

Only other place I've bought for myself is Lockwoods in Leamington who are good too.
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ansta1 wrote:
@flangesax, @Claude B, quick question, have you ever bought a pair of boots on a Saturday at a Snow and Rock or Ellis Brigham in the UK?


I have.
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flangesax wrote:
I've noticed the quantity of local skiers out here who have that level of needs and attention to their boot fitting is minimal (excluding the racers!)

I do wonder whether this is a good sample though, maybe the locals who didn't have easy to fit feet gave up skiing when they were kids.

I have average feet, I don't need much work done even to race boots.
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@under a new name, not sure there's a huge benefit getting them in resort compared to getting them at my local S&R.

Like I said before, I'll probably make the trip to CEM at some point, but for the next season or so I'm happy using what I've got.
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