 Poster: A snowHead
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| iheartwhistler wrote: |
| I do believe I saw LOUGHdesign, post in snowheads asking what the users would want about 6 months ago, so they have actually done what you said speed098, also, I'd like to see you go through the 999 combinations and crack the code in a couple of minutes...... good one mate. |
Ok maybe a measure of 4 to 5 min but the point is 3 is not secure enough for items worth into thousand pound or more but if you read my post yes I flame them to a degree but I have also given quite a few suggestions to make the product safer more. Realiable and potentially cheaper to manufacture. I have also pointed out problems that they seem to have overlooked ie the conditions it will be used in and the effect those conditions can have on parts.
I do expect university students to think of these things prior to making a prototype and for a lecturer to be able to explain why this should be done. If they had come on here with 3 or 4 CAD design images and asked for. Feedback prior to a prototype/mockup fine. Business can do that but to run through to this stage is not something most employers want as not only is it time but also materials cost and machining costs, on something that is too flawed for it's intended use.
The CAD I accept is fine because as students they are learning to use the software, but at their level they should also be learning how to manage resources efficiantly and not waste materials.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the OP... In my view you're starting from the wrong place, in that "innovation" doesn't really work that way.
If you'd been skiing around somewhere and then over time you developed an idea for a better type of ski lock, then you might either build a prototype yourself, or take the idea to someone who could. Note the sequence: the idea comes first. It looks a bit like you've got some snazzy software there, and that the real problem isn't to build a better ski lock, but to use the software in some way to obtain the maximum points from your faculty. You're starting from the wrong place.
As a snowboarder my boards/bindings generally cost upwards of £1,200 a pop, plus I self-insure, so I take care of my stuff.
Thoughts:
- Most people who lock their gear don't need high security, just more than the other people. So I want a light convenient lock.
- You have to lock the board(s) to something or they can simply be carried away; I regularly carry a second board on piste, it's no problem.
The obvious solution is a cable, and you've seen that.... but that makes everything else pretty but irrelevant. Short of producing a neater cable system, or a neater way to connect it to the board(s), it's hard to see where pretty software or 3-d printers are going to be of much assistance. The problem doesn't seem to be particularly amenable to those things as a solution.
How about something which makes the bindings fail to work for anyone other than you? Doesn't stop the "pick them up and ride off" approach, but would stop people swapping their tacky gear with your flashy gear. That begs the question: which type of theft is most common - people riding off on your gear, or riding off with it? You can research that easily enough. Perhaps that's a place you should start, or you may be solving the wrong problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My approach would be different.
Cable locks work ok apart from its a faff getting the tension correct around both the skis and the rack or whatever.
So I would probably just have two cables, one for each.
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| Quote: |
You can research that easily enough.
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Back when I was at Uni, that was a key part of the project. And research meant a search of scientific journals. Someone somewhere has probably done some more involved statistics based on real data, from insurance companies, police, etc. I'd like to think the internet makes finding that data and those journals and conference proceedings more easy, but in reality, I suspect web too oh has only made it easier for people to go... "oh let's use surveymonkey and ask a small group with a biased interest" (and afaik surveymonkey only gives you a sample of 100?).
When you come out of the restaurant, and your skis are gone (which has happened to several on here), were they nicked for ebay? or were they inadvertently skied off on by "someone that had red skis" ?
I have a cable lock. It it only there to satisfy the "forcibly removed" clause of the insurance. A multi tool Philips screw driver is enough to detach the skis from the lock, regardless of how solid that lock is.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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speed098, With 3D printers & computer controlled milling m/c', waterjets etc isn't prototype production much quicker & cheaper these days?
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Telling LOUGHdesign they should have done their research differently/started elsewhere isn't really very helpful to them. They aren't looking for new tutors. They probably don't want our ideas on how they are wasting materials etc. They just want to now what we think of the design. i.e. as a bunch of skiers (not amateur design experts) how do we feel about the prototype.
My personal views:
1. Too big
2. Far too heavy - I'd be looking for something not much bigger or heavier than an iphone.
3. Rather hard/painful corners
4. The photo showing the prototype attached to the skis makes me think that a quick stamp of a heel would either open the lock or at least knacker it.
5. In it's extended mode the lock would get tangled up in every other pair of skis in the rack
Personally, I'd probably prefer something a little more like a pair of self-coiling cable ties which ratchet closed around the bindings of each ski. The more bendy cable and the less hard lock, the better.
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too big
too heavy
fits those massive 90 mm wide skis.
£ 3 bike combo cable does the job better
I'm out
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had a ski lock: used it once and the combi lock tumblers froze. So I borrowed a pair of pliers from a liftie and had them freed in less than a minute.
So; you need a locking system that works in sub zero conditions and doesn't use a cable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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tiffin, why the comment about tension? I stick the cable through the metal loop part of the binding that is under you heel when you stamp down. Providing the end of the cable is narrow enough any lock or chain that will pass through that loop will do surely, regardless of the tension that it is attached to something solid by - the lock I linked to works fine in that respect. OK, thief could demount the bindings, but if they are equiped to do that I imagine they are carting a handy set of bolt cutters too. Nothing will stop a determined thief, my precautions are solely to make another set of skis an easier lift than mine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
I had a ski lock: used it once and the combi lock tumblers froze. So I borrowed a pair of pliers from a liftie and had them freed in less than a minute.
So; you need a locking system that works in sub zero conditions and doesn't use a cable. |
Nay you need to be prepared to Mtfu and pee on it if necessary.
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Megamum, the brake? (well the bit the heel pushes down on to lift the brake prongs up). easily removed with 1 screwdriver, and not needed to be able to ski (although not advised).
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You know it makes sense.
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Dave of the Marmottes, at the temprature concerned I think I'd struggle to get past the zipper!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Full marks to LOUGHdesign for his/her measured and mature responses.
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+1 Far too many ad hominem insults. Play the ball, guys.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I can't actually envisage myself using a ski lock so I'll refrain from contributing any feedback on the actual design. However, I have been pretty disappointed by the response of a few Snowheads to this request for feedback. The OP didn't ask for a good kicking. He simply asked for feedback on a design. If you don't like the design, then by all means say so and give constructive criticism. As I understand it, these are University students learning their craft. Whether you rate their design or not I think they merit a great deal more consideration and less of the ill manners than some have displayed here. It's unnecessary, unattractive, and makes this forum look petty, sneering and small-minded. At times, I'm genuinely embarrassed to be a contributor to this site. Full marks to LOUGHdesign for his/her measured and mature responses. |
+1 |
+2
Poor form.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, Yeah you can loop it through the brake but its all gets sloppy if you try to include poles or more than one pair of skis.
If you could bind the skis etc up tight with one loop then use another loop to attach it all to something I just feel that would be easier.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Like most other people I don't use a ski lock, but here's what I think of the design:
Positive:
- I like the idea of the ratchet locking clamp. It should be a very strong solution.
Negative:
- It's way too large
- The clamp idea could be much smaller but it looks like it's grown to include the locking cable
- The carrying handle idea is a waste of time. It's off to the side and the angle of the grip would make it hard to control the skis when carrying them.
My own thoughts for improvement are:
1. consider two versions.
a) A slimmed down version with no locking cable. A clean, sleek, strong, preventative measure.
b) A version of the above with a handle / cable mechanism on the outside of the clamp. Keeps the styling clean, at least the handle is in line rather than to the side, insurance compliant. Still not really a practical carrying aid though.
2. Like some others small numbers on the combination lock would put me off. I don't really want to have to get my reading glasses out just to get at the skis. Batteries fail quickly so I guess electronics / NFC is out. Keys are a bit of a faff, but maybe some modern take on a key that's small but not fiddly with cold hands could be an option.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| LOUGHdesign wrote: |
Hello again! 6 Months later and us guys at Loughborough University have created a concept idea for a new 'Ski/Snowboard Lock'.
We'd be more than happy if any of you had any comments on the the design we've created (Pictures below).
It's a ratchet locking clamp, that also has an extendable cable that can be extended (1m) around handrails or whatever you find near cafés/chalets!
It's big enough to hold a snowboard or a set of skis (and poles), in between the bindings; and also fits snugly in a ski jacket pocket! |
Some skis are 110mm+ underfoot. Would they Fit? minor dimensional problem I know, but you're going to have to think about it.
Your bigger problem is that my snowboard has a waist dimension of 252mm and is roughly average. It would not fit in that lock - if you take the max aperture as 90mm wide by 180mm long it's diagonal is 201mm or thereabouts, and that's not including the black squidgy bit in the middle.
I'm afraid your design does not fulfill your own basic parameters, ie it only fits some skis and no snowboards.
If you want to use it for snowboards as well as skis you'll need to increase the max internal dimension of the lock to about 250mm x 90, so that you can accomodate a board on the diagonal of about 270mm. This means that when closed (halved) the internal size needs to be 125mm, so your outside dim needs to be about 145mm. Roughly 50% bigger than you've shown. I hope that's of some help.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't use a lock either, but although I would much prefer a combination to a key I can see that freezing the tumblers could be a problem. Iris recognition?  My bike combination lock got stuck a couple of months ago - I phoned my son in law who came to the rescue with bolt croppers. Nobody in the Leisure Centre car park turned a hair at the sight of a guy with a dodgy looking battered white van, wearing a big grey hoodie, chopping the lock off.
My elderly hands wouldn't want to carry skis with some kind of handle; I have no problem carrying them on the shoulder, in the usual fashion.
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I don't see a carry handle. If you're looking at the cutout in the black squishy centre bit that's where your poles go at a guess.
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| Quote: |
Your bigger problem is that my snowboard has a waist dimension of 252mm and is roughly average.
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Why on earth would anyone want to steal a snowboard?
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pam w, I find my skis more manageable to carry when they are clamped together.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think, but could be wrong, that pam w, is confusing the ski pole lock with some sort of carry handle (which AFAIK doesn't exist). However, it raises an interesting point. Most of us carry our skis clamped together over our shoulder. It looks to me as if this clamp might interfere with the usual carrying action. It could be a pain to have to remove the lock every time you wanted to carry them from A to B.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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impression i got was it clamped round between toe+heel pieces? in which case it wouldn't interfere with the way i carry them. but the depth might well be an issue on some skis. cba to measure the rail thickness on mine, but it is "substantial".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lechbob wrote: |
| speed098, With 3D printers & computer controlled milling m/c', waterjets etc isn't prototype production much quicker & cheaper these days? |
Yes it can be but unfortunately not every company has them some have to design then use machines owned by other company's and thus pay for that use. I think learning to research a product is still vital for any student. In years to come it may be very quaint if a company does not have all this in house.
But 3d printing does not help them with inherent design flaws from not really looking at how the product is used, and the conditions it is used in.
I hope they learn from this and would love to see them take onboard all that has been said here and in a month or two come back with a product that is really unique and still addresses the possible issues the product may encounter like a size 9 or 10 ski boot on the end of a powerful leg being used like a sledgehammer. If they could find a way to lock the bindings in a way that they can not be removed by a screwdriver that would be interesting to see but the biggest issue I see with a product like that is keeping the weight and bulk within acceptable parameters.
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foxtrotzulu, you may well be right - I was reading some of the comments above about carrying handle. I agree with Lechbob that skis are easier to carry if clamped together. Generally I find that using the brakes and then getting the correct ski on top does the job but I do have some that don't clip well and cross country skis don't clip together at all. I use a wrap round neoprene and velcro thing - often free with ski hire or a new pair of skis and I have several kicking around.
I suppose if you put the clamp below the bindings it wouldn't interfere with carrying.
Could one devise a lock with two parts, one stuck to each ski (in a way which would make a nasty mark if removed) with a very short stout pull-out cable to lock the pair together? Would need to be light, obviously but that shouldn't be a major challenge with modern materials.
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You know it makes sense.
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foxtrotzulu, it would never occur to me to carry my skis whilst locked together. With my cable lock I pass it through the brakes on at least one of each pair of skis and lock everything together in a big bundle, if possible I'll pass the cable around something stationary too. I reason that at the very least any thief is going to make sufficient noise untangling that lot at a restaurant to attract someone's attention.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, Fair enough. I suppose I'm also thinking of the moment when a family might have two or three pairs of skis each with one of these locks. It seems the lock almost doubles the width of the ski so this could be an issue if bundling them together on a roof rack, in a small locker, or one one of those huge racks you get in some ski rooms where each pair of skis is held at 45 degrees and staggered from the next one.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w,
Let me post it again, again
http://www.skikey.com/
Note it does have a key. It is not fiddly and has never frozen. 
This is the system that I and hundreds of others in this part of the world use. Fairly secure, and small for the user. It does require some sort of organization and investment by the mountain, so guess that's why you get it here and not over there.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 6-05-14 18:20; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lechbob, My word, "Ski Tote" can't be doing so badly - I'm reasonably sure they've been around since mid 80s if not earlier.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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under a new name, Original patent for ski tote US3892343 was filed in 1972, so will have expired. I have not seen any on the slopes, so I don't think the inventor made his fortune with this.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Lechbob, I have, but only a very, very long time ago! I think I may have possessed one...
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stuarth, It looks like Ski Key requires massive investment by the mountain. Every restaurant would need to install it and then persuade skiers that they should buy the ski keys. All this to solve a problem that many would argue doesn't even exist. I think it may work better in the US where the restaurants are owned (I think) by the mountain owners as opposed to being all small, independent family businesses.
Is Ski Key really such an improvement over just swapping a ski with one of your mates?
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tiffin, +1. Christ give the chap a break. Masque, you normally make sense and I enjoy your posts, but really 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Full marks to LOUGHdesign for his/her measured and mature responses.
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+1 Far too many ad hominem insults. Play the ball, guys. |
Really? "ad hominen" ! I'm the first to say I've an intolerance of stupidity (especially mine own) and all that's done here is describe my utter disbelieve at a degree project that is barely more than O'level standard. It displays an incredible paucity of reseatch, thought and current materials/manufacturing exploitation. Renaissance blacksmiths produced more innovative designs . . . 'pre-history' Greeks built astrolabes with better engineering purpose than this AutoCAD abortion.
If these guys want to learn and earn a degree AND they want genuine feedback on their efforts then they need to post not just the bits of their project that gives them a wee stiffy but also the task they were given and the processes they undertook to get where they are now. They are on an education path to a career field that is full of people who are not just good at designing a new bum hole for you, but are well equipped to built and install the same.
Here we have someone who has designed a lock . . . we're all pretty certain that it's not fit for purpose as as recreational snows ports specific lock . . . What do you want us to say? These guys are well down the road to failure, obscurity and minimum wage burger flipping . . . A good kick in the nuts is needed, it may just be the jolt out of mediocrity they need to succeed.
6 months and they post little more than a week's worth of design work? . . . These boogers better not be suckling on my grant teat 
Typing on a mobile
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We would like to thank all of you who offered constructive feed back to our design. Of course we understand that we have been set a task to reinvent the wheel to some extent, and a commercial ski lock would likely be best designed directly copying many already on the market. It was established early on that we could not do this, and so we used the research we conducted to attempt to create a feasible product.
Weighing only 300g and having dimensions 11 x 11 x 2 (cm) we believe this product to be portable. Many of you have mentioned issues of carrying something hard like this in a pocket, however many locks currently on the market carry the same danger. We used the idea of carrying it in a pocket as a reference, of course you would be encouraged to carry it in a bag if you ski with one, as with any other product.
Our research, primarily taken from members of this forum, suggested an overwhelming emphasis of portability over security, and in order to not end up producing a standard cable lock we pursued something more interesting, perhaps sacrificing marketability.
We also understand that this forum is frequented by experienced skiers with expensive equipment, and understand the importance of a lock. However only very small percentage of people actually use a lock, and only 3% have, or know of someone who has, had their skis stolen. This information is difficult to process when faced with redesigning something that not only works fine as it is, but also not many people see the need for.
We have acknowledged what has been said and we are grateful for your feedback.
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FAQ
