 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I say, that gentleman appears to have taken all the fun out of rollerblading.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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well, at least that first chap staid on his feet.... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| meh wrote: |
| I say, that gentleman appears to have taken all the fun out of rollerblading. |
It has nothing to do with rollerblading. The carvers are 1m long and really work like carving skis. Mitch is an expert freestyle skier and coach and said that it's the best training before snow which will hopefully start falling down under in less than two months.
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He's obviously not been on a dry slope then.
I'm more tempted to go for some skate style roller skiing as a summer cardio activity and apart from skinning about I have no desire to cross country ski.
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not seen the carvey ones. do see XC ski guys out roller skiing in summer/autumn, even in the forest on packed gravel (not just tarmac bike paths). often see one guy all lycra's up and towing a kiddie bike trailer behind.
The grass skiing looks like a right larf. Bet I could do some more spectacular stacks though!
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| nosnowski wrote: |
| meh wrote: |
| I say, that gentleman appears to have taken all the fun out of rollerblading. |
It has nothing to do with rollerblading. The carvers are 1m long and really work like carving skis. Mitch is an expert freestyle skier and coach and said that it's the best training before snow which will hopefully start falling down under in less than two months. |
If he is an expert I'd have expected more:
and less tentative wiggles from which I can only conclude they don't really work like carving skis. Do you work for this company?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Definately SPAM
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^ +1
Hmm, it's got to be said that Mitch Smith's "skiing" is neither that impressive nor that fast on that clip. He needs to come over to London and hang with the inline skating crowd here for a bit
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| narc wrote: |
If he is an expert I'd have expected more:
and less tentative wiggles from which I can only conclude they don't really work like carving skis. Do you work for this company? |
Come over down under and show us how you do it. It was his second run ever and I caught it from my car following him.
This is not a product that you can buy and I don't work for "this company".
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
^ +1
Hmm, it's got to be said that Mitch Smith's "skiing" is neither that impressive nor that fast on that clip. He needs to come over to London and hang with the inline skating crowd here for a bit |
Try in-line skating over drain grates and on a dirt bumpy road with no fore/aft support. This thing has nothing to do with in-line skates. The way the wheels turn on rolling your knees simulates side cut and you use the same muscle groups as with skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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| nosnowski wrote: |
| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
^ +1
Hmm, it's got to be said that Mitch Smith's "skiing" is neither that impressive nor that fast on that clip. He needs to come over to London and hang with the inline skating crowd here for a bit |
Try in-line skating over drain grates and on a dirt bumpy road with no fore/aft support. This thing has nothing to do with in-line skates. The way the wheels turn on rolling your knees simulates side cut and you use the same muscle groups as with skiing. |
So just like blading on London streets then, except blades have even less fore-aft support?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There used to be a bar in Val d'Isere with a photo on the wall of Killy doing his summer training by skiing down La Face using a pair of steel skis on the bare rock. Rollerblading is very gay in comparison.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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valais2, when was that filmed - warmest winter in 50 years? Great skiing!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, ...2011...
...trying to remember what 2011 was like. Not brilliant if I recall. Very thin by the end of the season, not like '12 and '13.
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I'm intrigued.
Would give it a go to see how it feels.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Very thin by the end of the season
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but the commentary says that normally the hills would be covered by snow "by this time of year" so I thought it was the beginning of the season - but maybe just rather sloppy commentary. Or is it Australia rather than Austria? Looks very dusty and stony!
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Blimey that was dull!! 
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pam w, ...yep... they indeed say it was the beginning of the season...I was just trying to remember back to exactly what 2011 was like at the beginning of the season and reflecting on the back end, which was thin. I think 2011 was when a friend drove up, in his 4wd, to Cry D'Er (2000m) just before christmas, 'just because he could' and rang me from the top - when there should have been 1.5m of fresh on the ground. We were mud-skipping below 1500m at Christmas if I recall correctly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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nosnowski, the point is that if the chap is a pro skier, which you have adequately demonstrated he is, he should be able to turn properly if the ski "simulates side cut" as you state.
The video shows a pro skier wobbling about slowly not really carving at all well, which begs the question is what chance would us "mere mortals" have of success?
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| martinm wrote: |
| Blimey that was dull!! |
+1
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rogg wrote: |
nosnowski, the point is that if the chap is a pro skier, which you have adequately demonstrated he is, he should be able to turn properly if the ski "simulates side cut" as you state.
The video shows a pro skier wobbling about slowly not really carving at all well, which begs the question is what chance would us "mere mortals" have of success? |
As I mentioned it was practically his first run after trying for about 15 minutes and he was also not in a very good shape suffering from a flu. He only decided to do it since we earlier agreed on a particular day and I drove 4 hours to meet with him. The gear was set to be too "turny" which has reduced its stability. Mitch has so enjoyed the experience that I left him my rollercarvers and he will do more riding when he is back from his overseas trip at the end of the month. He promised to send me some videos. I am not sure what your level of expertise is but I got an email from quite famous Austrian ski instructor who after looking at the video wrote:
"I am once more impressed. Especially by the pull and acceleration out of the turn. You can see how the knee roll and the tightening of the turn work together which makes it look quite similar to what we do in a clean carved turn on easy terrain."
Being a mere mortal myself and not the youngest one I can tell you that you have a very good chance of success. The device is far more stable than in-line skates.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
The device is far more stable than in-line skates.
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But it's not inline skating is it, if we are talking about any of the speed disciplines of inline (or ice) then properly done the turn is initiated at or around around the ankle with the knee and rest of the body following that into a turn, the longer length of the 'rollercarver' may force that angulation further up the leg to the knee and hip, but apart from that how is it replicating carving, there is unlikely (unless the wheels are rockered and a low dura) to be any pressure applied through the foot to force the carve. Note - I haven't looked a the video for any length of time (got bored as wasn't impressed), so won't comment much further till I have.
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| nosnowski wrote: |
| rogg wrote: |
nosnowski, the point is that if the chap is a pro skier, which you have adequately demonstrated he is, he should be able to turn properly if the ski "simulates side cut" as you state.
The video shows a pro skier wobbling about slowly not really carving at all well, which begs the question is what chance would us "mere mortals" have of success? |
As I mentioned it was practically his first run after trying for about 15 minutes and he was also not in a very good shape suffering from a flu. |
If they are really "like carving skis" he should have required zero adjustment period to ski to the same levels he is capable of on snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| Quote: |
The device is far more stable than in-line skates.
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But it's not inline skating is it, if we are talking about any of the speed disciplines of inline (or ice) then properly done the turn is initiated at or around around the ankle with the knee and rest of the body following that into a turn, the longer length of the 'rollercarver' may force that angulation further up the leg to the knee and hip, but apart from that how is it replicating carving, there is unlikely (unless the wheels are rockered and a low dura) to be any pressure applied through the foot to force the carve. Note - I haven't looked a the video for any length of time (got bored as wasn't impressed), so won't comment much further till I have. |
No, it has nothing to do with in-line skating. The device is 3 foot long and if it had fixed wheels there would be no way on earth to make turns like you can see in the video. I don't know if you have seen XC trainers such as skikes or powerslide in action (you can find videos of people riding them on youtube). They are about 2 foot long and the only way to turn is to do exactly what people do it in cross country skiing. You are right that the wheels are rockered but there is more to it. There is a mechanical steering system that synchronises the way they turn and springs that make the device turn easier or harder depending on how they are set. The wheels respond to rolling your knees and angulation thus simulating a side cut. The wheels are 6" pneumatics and hold "the edge" pretty well.
My purpose for building this device was to have something that I could use for skiing workout. I typically ski a 2 and if I am lucky 3 weeks a year and our ski season down under is shorter than in the Northern Hemisphere.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| narc wrote: |
| If they are really "like carving skis" he should have required zero adjustment period to ski to the same levels he is capable of on snow. |
You are ignoring physical reality. Hard surface is not the same as snow and you have to get some feeling how the gear works. It's not a matter of being exactly the same as carving on snow but rather as good as possible approximation. As I mentioned above Mitch is a pro skier, coach of freestyle X-game winner and also a consultant for Red Bull and you don't become one for no reason. This is what he wrote in his email to me:
"As with a ski, it took me a couple of turns, literally, to find the balance point and how to close
and elongate my trajectory. I was amazed to find that within minutes my natural skiing
ability took over and enabled me to use the RollerCarver in a fashion so similar to skiing it
was uncanny. After about 15 minutes on a steady slope in a Falls Creek car park, I found myself confident
and wanting to find a larger slope to really give them a go. I went out into the car
park/fringes of the main road and headed down. I was elated. Immediately I was able to
string turns together, both short and long radius."
I don't pretend to be an expert skier although ski in all terrain including crud and powder. I can tell you from my own experience that using the gear improved my technique especially having a "lazy" inside knee. It just forces you to roll your knees and angulate to perform a turn and you can't do sliding and pivoting (this is not to say that pivoting is not a valid technique and you certainly need it on steeps). I started skiing a long time ago and my skis were 205cm so when I switched to carving skis it took me a while to grasp how to properly use them and rollercarvers helped me a lot.
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Poster: A snowHead
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nosnowski, Just want to inject a bit of realism
....can I ski in the Alps in the winter? Yes.
...can I ski in the Alps in the summer? yes.
The wheely things....You need a big hill with gentle slopes and legal right to blat down the road.
Is there anywhere in Cambridge that I can use these wheely things, winter or summer? No.
Right that's that then....back onto the mountain bike and road bike to get some proper training in.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| valais2 wrote: |
nosnowski, Just want to inject a bit of realism
....can I ski in the Alps in the winter? Yes.
...can I ski in the Alps in the summer? yes.
The wheely things....You need a big hill with gentle slopes and legal right to blat down the road.
Is there anywhere in Cambridge that I can use these wheely things, winter or summer? No.
Right that's that then....back onto the mountain bike and road bike to get some proper training in. |
Just in case you don't know, there are people living outside Cambridge and there are plenty of hardly used roads, car parks, parks in different parts of the world such e.g. Australia, USA, Canada and I have seen quite a few in Europe. In-line alpine is very popular in Europe and they even have regular competitions so it definitely can be done.
I have a sloping car park 5 minutes walk from my house and it's empty after 6pm so I can do my workout every day if I want. Our road rules allow in-line skates, skateboards on undivided roads with speed limit of no more than 50kph. To get to the Alps takes a 24hr flight and I don't do it more often than once every 3 years.
Also, as you may be aware there are a few artificial slopes covered with dendix or snowflex in the UK but they need to be watered. We do not have that much water down under so wheels are pretty good and you can even go to a resort such the one shown in the video and pick up one of the empty roads here to do some rollercarving.
You may not be aware but the best UK skier ever Martin Bell has done a fair bit of grass skiing and was also running ski camps on artificial surface.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Just in case you don't know, there are people living outside Cambridge and there are plenty of hardly used roads, car parks, parks in different parts of the world such e.g. Australia, USA, Canada and I have seen quite a few in Europe. In-line alpine is very popular in Europe and they even have regular competitions so it definitely can be done.
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Yes we do, in fact I live outside Cambridge myself, didn't know that other people had roads and car parks, I thought it was only the UK that had them,
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I have a sloping car park 5 minutes walk from my house and it's empty after 6pm so I can do my workout every day if I want. Our road rules allow in-line skates, skateboards on undivided roads with speed limit of no more than 50kph. To get to the Alps takes a 24hr flight and I don't do it more often than once every 3 years.
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Bully for you, but surely there are plenty of other ways to get a workout? And unless I misread, you're not really talking about exercise as such, more reinforcing the 'carving' tecknique. I can be in the alps in about 4 hours so I've got one up on you in that respect.
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Also, as you may be aware there are a few artificial slopes covered with dendix or snowflex in the UK but they need to be watered. We do not have that much water down under so wheels are pretty good and you can even go to a resort such the one shown in the video and pick up one of the empty roads here to do some rollercarving.
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Yep, well aware of the UK dry ski slopes. Sorry about the lack of water down under chap.
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You may not be aware but the best UK skier ever Martin Bell has done a fair bit of grass skiing and was also running ski camps on artificial surface.
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Yep, Martin is a member and occasional poster on this forum, but not sure I see you point. So would you care to make one, along the lines of.
These roller carvers are useful in replicating and practising a number of the movements used when carving skis down a slope, obviously actual skiing is the best form of practice but in the event you have a suitable slope and would like to practice then these may be a useful thing to try out. Incidentally, if I were to use them how do I get to the top of the slope and back up again?
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nosnowski, ..gosh...are there people living outside Cambridge?
This may all be fine in your context but in the UK the police will take a dim view of people 'wide carving' down quiet roads - where the law somewhat traditionally assumes that vehicles will proceed in a conventional linear and stable fashion. If there's an incident, make sure your personal insurance is well up (around 2m gbp should do it) and expect the courts to take a very dim view....
Your product guidelines on use are going to make an interesting read....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
This is not a product that you can buy and I don't work for "this company".
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Is a little contradicted by your later comment of...
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My purpose for building this device was to have something that I could use for skiing workout. I typically ski a 2 and if I am lucky 3 weeks a year and our ski season down under is shorter than in the Northern Hemisphere.
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So being straight, honest and upfront. What's the purpose for telling us wee folk about these if there is no intention to try and drum up some sales of sort.
Also I have done more than my fair share of speed skating (Quad, Inline and Ice) with some at a fairly high level in the UK and Europe. I can quite comfortably hit over 40kph on the flat if need be on my race inline skates so if you want to send me a pair of the roller carvers I'd be happy to give them a go and give you some feedback.
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[quote="ansta1"]
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So being straight, honest and upfront. What's the purpose for telling us wee folk about these if there is no intention to try and drum up some sales of sort.
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No problem. First of all I work for an IT company. I just want to test if there's any interest in the idea and if it is really worth my effort to take it beyond a hobby project. Even if it gets to that stage it will probably take quite a while and by that time most people will forget about this whole thread so no drumming up imminent sales of sort.
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nosnowski, now we are getting somewhere. So rather than saying 'look how good this guy tells me this product is and saying I don't work for them, it would have been better if you started with something like. "I have an idea for a product which could help people practice their carving skills out of season and would like your thoughts"
We are around these parts I think it is fair to say, very wide range of ages, ski levels, backgrounds, locations, fitness and a whole host of other personal and professions. But in general (and you may found out then generalisations are also generally not liked - 2 generalisations in one go, I am so going to get flamed) that as a rule the weak or obvious will get weeded out pretty quickly.
You're idea might have some merit or benefit so pitch it honestly and openly for what it is.
Anyhow, getting back to the product. Aside from the actual function (is it a fitness product, or a technique/muscle memory assertion tool) I can see a huge number of performance issues due to mechanical based variations.
Tyre pressure
Tyre compund
Spring rate plus any rebout damping
Rocker angles
Add into this where and how it will actually be used based on local legislation and simple logistics (like I said earlier, do I walk up the hill and carve down, or drive up the hill, carve down, then walk up back to the car)
add into these the wildy varying difference in road or track surfaces, what is the target audience and it's intended use?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
nosnowski, now we are getting somewhere. So rather than saying 'look how good this guy tells me this product is and saying I don't work for them, it would have been better if you started with something like. "I have an idea for a product which could help people practice their carving skills out of season and would like your thoughts"
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I introduced myself a year ago in the thread "gear to ski on a dry surface". It is still there and you can check what I wrote which was quite frank and open. I could have posted the latest video there but I know from experience that reviving old threads does not work and decided to start a new thread and just post a video of a good skier riding my device.
| ansta1 wrote: |
We are around these parts I think it is fair to say, very wide range of ages, ski levels, backgrounds, locations, fitness and a whole host of other personal and professions. But in general (and you may found out then generalisations are also generally not liked - 2 generalisations in one go, I am so going to get flamed) that as a rule the weak or obvious will get weeded out pretty quickly.
You're idea might have some merit or benefit so pitch it honestly and openly for what it is.
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This forum is well known for flaming people whether you are honest or not, but sometimes among all the useless comments you may find one with some merit.
| ansta1 wrote: |
Anyhow, getting back to the product. Aside from the actual function (is it a fitness product, or a technique/muscle memory assertion tool) I can see a huge number of performance issues due to mechanical based variations.
Tyre pressure
Tyre compund
Spring rate plus any rebout damping
Rocker angles
Add into this where and how it will actually be used based on local legislation and simple logistics (like I said earlier, do I walk up the hill and carve down, or drive up the hill, carve down, then walk up back to the car)
add into these the wildy varying difference in road or track surfaces, what is the target audience and it's intended use? |
Tyre pressure and type is not a problem. I use more or less standard tyres used in XC trainers. They have been used for years in skikes, powerslide and similar devices. I tried solid PU tyres but they are nowhere near as good as pneumatics.
Damping flutter or shimmy which is related to the rocker angle (or trail) is the main challenge in similar devices but I managed to solve it and the idea came from the formula for the steady state critical angular frequency at onset of shimmy. The way it works is that any tendency of the front rocker is dampened by the rear wheel assembly which has zero trail. The tension of the spring is adjustable and does not have much influence on flutter.
As far as the place to use the device is concerned it should ideally be off road and there has already been interest from some ski resorts and ski clubs in setting up proper facilities. Going uphill is not a problem and a major ski lift manufacturer offered one of their portable models to a ski resort that I spoke to. These days with irregular winters ski resorts are looking for off season activities and the main one at the moment is mountain biking. There are already quite a few places with ski lifts used by grass skiers but in the absence of such I just skate push uphill which is a very good workout or jump in a car with a fellow skier and we take turns in driving and riding on longer runs.
Whether this thing flies as a product or not I realise that it's not going to be a money spinner and I'll keep doing my job. Similar devices such as Harb Carvers are used by pro skiers and hard core skiing enthusiasts for their summer training and mine has already received considerable interest and support by quite a few coaches, skiing instructors and even former Olympians. The reason for my post here was to see the reaction of amateur skiers and can see that it is not very enthusiastic at least not in the UK.
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nosnowski, ...OK seriously now...
first thing
I think that all is being said is that it may have been a bit better to have started the thread with; '...I've been working hard to perfect this, I've got this far, what do people think?' and that would have been less likely to stimulate adverse and whimsical comment; people here are quite willing to offer supportive and helpful comment.
second thing
It's obvious from the history of human endeavour (exploration, science, invention) that individuals 'pushed the envelope' against dominant opinion. So it's worthwhile struggling with novel ideas. But history is also littered with deadends, and people have wasted their lives on things which had little chance of commercial success. Contrast the Sony Walkman (the well known story that there was 'no market for it') with the Sinclair C5. I was serious when I posted about the problems of where you would use this in England. University or other private car parks at the weekend perhaps, with the owners' permission. But not on public roads, the legal impediment is significant.
third thing
Linked to the second thing; as far as I recall the figures, only around 2% of the British population ski, and only a very small proportion of those would use this device. So, good of you to get a pair of these working. But I would be very realistic about the potential market. You've confronted the design and fabrication realities, next stage: there are stark realities regarding use and market, and (within and beneath the flippant elements) some of the comments posted here do give some very good hints as to the possibilities and size of the market.
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FAQ
There must be a way to get crappy shoite like this off the interweb and open up some bandwidth 
