The right answer is a hardshell. There are loads of good options out there. I'd second Mountain Equipment - very good gear at reasonable prices (not cheap but cheaper than similar quality jackets from other brands IMO). VFM option might be the top of the line Karrimor Event jacket from field and trek (sports direct) - looked pretty decent to me and probably £100+cheaper than similar things
Yep hardshell, mine is a Mountain Equipment Changabang, plus how ever many layers of merino or lightweight down you need for warmth under it. Buy one with enough room underneath for those layers. Has the advantage of being a perfectly fine hiking jacket as well so you aren't just buying a ski jacket.
I have been looking at the idea of replacing my rather worn main ski jacket with something like this. The one thing I'd miss from a dedicated ski jacket would be a snow skirt for those occasional deep snow days. Is this something you find you miss, or is there some aftermarket solution?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
J2R, I've always used a hard shell as a ski jacket. I'm on my second year of an Arctrex beta ar and it's been perfect, bombproof and just pop whatever level of insulation under it the day demands. Never been wet, or cold. As for a snow skirt, I wish..
J2R, A tech shell from a ski-wear manufacturer would mean you get the powder skirt and it will still double as a hiking shell.
I plan to order the Lab Coat from Flylow, to replace my Quantum shell. It's Polartec NeoShell, super waterproof and breathable apparently (I'll let you know).
I think all the Flylow shells have a powder skirt, and fasten to their pants also to create a powder 'seal'.
Like I say when I get my hands on the new gear I will report back, but my gear from two years ago has been bombproof and still looks almost like new, despite my best efforts.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
J2R, there are mountaineering jackets out there with snow skirts, my Marmot Spire being one of them. Really robust face fabric, excellent hood which covers a helmet and moves with it. I pair mine with a 100g Primaloft jacket when its cold or just a fleece when it's not too bad.
Imo, having bought a jacket 3 seasons ago without a snow skirt, I don't miss it at all. And I've skied quite a lot of real powder since...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jbob, I too wear Beta in late season, don't Need a snow skirt, pow doesn't go up past rucksack waist strap anyway......great jacket, I wear it all year round at home for walking etc. no signs of wear and mines 5 years old.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I got tired of faffing about in the end and have just bought a Marmot PreCip in the GoOutdoors sale (£60). It's nice and light and will be hardly noticeable in my pack, but is apparently (from the reviews I've read) decent enough in terms of waterproofing and breathability, and should do the job nicely for this holiday and various other uses. Long term, I think I may keep my eyes open for a good NeoShell jacket at a good price.
Thanks everybody for your suggestions!
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J2R, - Good choice, - I have several bits of Marmot kit and have had no problems with any of it, I still have a pair of Gauntlet style gloves with removable inners and apart from a bit of wear on the palms the outers look fairly new- I originally bought these in 2000 for a trip to Fernie in B.C. when we experienced - 25c on regular occasions. Mrs Snowbandit has a Gortex shell and a pair of softshell pants and all I would say in our personal experience Marmot gear is pretty much bomb proof and our kit it is well used and abused.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
J2R, The Changabang has a snow skirt and pass pocket, the snow skirt is removable for when you don't need it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Friends dad is an Exum guide, he let me in on the trade secret! tuck your jacket into your trousers, BOOM free snow suit!
just don't tell anyone!
I have a snow skirt, waste of material, never use it
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DB wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
I imagine that's similar to the RainX type stuff people use on GoPro lenses to keep them clear of water, so should be ok..?
... not sure as I suspect goggles have a coating that camera lenses don't.
RainX is OK on plastic/irridum/coated motorbike visors. Can't see it doing goggles any harm
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've been using two jackets the whole season and simply the best gear I've ever used.
Mate of mine has bee using this gear on two long walks (five hours plus) in the pissing rain in the lakes and remained bone dry unlike others wearing goretx and the like!
This is from a review I posted elsewhere
I have come in for a little "stick" from people that are ignorant of the brand, but as I always say if it's good enough for Scottish / Irish / Welsh Mountain rescue teams, then.....?
I have been aware of the brand for quite a while as they often come out in best in test in Trail magazine when they test water proofs gear for various disciplines be it hill walking, scrambling etc
Though it can be said that some of their designs are not exactly favorable to the fashionistas out there, being more for the "twitchers" brigade.
However I saw that they had launched two new high altitude jackets the Enduro and Ventura jackets and both the Mrs and I went for these back in November knowing we're out for the whole season plus I also have the Quito.
And so far this season I have not used my other jackets as these are so damn comfortable and practical!
They are expensive, but they are guaranteed for life and unlike Goretex will not break down after eight or so weeks of continual use, you can stuff them in your pack, screw the sleeves up your arms without fear of damaging the fabric, which happens if you do that
This is taken from the Which? site
Paramo has been rated highest in a new Which? survey of waterproof jacket brands, receiving an impressive customer score of 92%.
The British outdoor clothing company was rated higher than 19 competitors for factors including water resistance, comfort and durability. German outdoor clothing provider Jack Wolfskin ranked a close second.
Berghaus, The North Face, Rohan and Cragghoppers were among the other well-known outdoor brands rated by Which? members and members of the public...........
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Plastic poncho from the lift pass window, 5 euros, job done
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
sarah,
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Weathercam, I've heard about them for years, but they aren't really a shell; don't they have a sort of furry fibre insulation layer that whicks moisture away?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Mosha Marc wrote:
Weathercam, I've heard about them for years, but they aren't really a shell; don't they have a sort of furry fibre insulation layer that whicks moisture away?
That was what put me off as well Marc......
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mosha Marc wrote:
Weathercam, I've heard about them for years, but they aren't really a shell; don't they have a sort of furry fibre insulation layer that whicks moisture away?
Yes, the Paramo fabric works by a kind of directional wicking. I've read loads of positive reviews of Paramo, but one consistent observation is that it's warm, maybe too warm to be suitable for year-round use. For the uses I'll be putting my jacket to, it seems the best materials would be eVent and Polartec NeoShell. But I'll see how my PreCip performs for now.
Which? magazine readers rate Páramo tops for ...
Berghaus, The North Face, Rohan and Cragghoppers were among the other well-known outdoor brands rated by Which? members and members of the public...........
I make no comment on the gear, which I'm sure is fine, although my Burton AK is GoreTex and is happy to be used every day all season, so there are lots of things which work. Nice to have a choice.
On the other hand, a survey of "Which?" readers is not quite an A:B comparison or any kind of scientific test. It's simply a survey of people who spend money subscribing to consumer magazines. That's a non-random sample of a specific type of person.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
J2R wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
I found licking the lens works just fine (not an April Fool!), but licking the entirety of your goggles may get some strange looks...
Do you take the goggles off first to do this, or do you do it in situ?
If you can do that without taking your goggles off, can I have your phone number?
philwig, hear what you say, over the years Paramo consistently wins best in test for wet weather gear in various trail, hiking mags.
I've been using my Quito jacket on and off ski touring over the last four or five weeks as well as skiing most of the season and it's a fab piece of kit, and so comfortable.
The Enduro too is great, and used that when it's uber cold, but if there was only one jacket then the Quito would be the one.
Over many years I've had a fair number of jackets pretty well from all the major brands and was aware of Paramo but I too was skeptical, now I'm a evangelical convert.
Plus I'll be wearing in back home as well when the weather's rank and I'm dog walking etc.
The only negative is that if you put fashion and style (want to look like a Swedish avalanche poodle) over practicality and functionality then Paramo is not for you.
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As I understand it paramo isn't water-proof in the same way goretex eVent etc are but has a water repellent finish and uses nikwax technology with a wicking layer underneath similar to the Buffalo type shirts.
A few questions for the paramo users/converts .......
a) Isn't Paramo too warm for summer or high intensity use? (i.e. a lot warmer than a shell jacket)
b) Doesn't the water pass through in areas that are under compression (e.g. under a backpack?)
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
A couple more Paramo reviews ....
Quote:
Over the weekend my Paramo jacket had it's first real test against bad weather with gusty wind and sustained rain for several hours over Ingleborough.
While I was toasty warm with just the jacket and my merino t-shirt, I was soaked to the skin. I'm not sure whether that was sweat, condensation or rain getting in but either way I must admit to being rather disappointed in what was a rather pricey jacket.
I don't mind being wet if I'm warm, which I was. That is until I stopped walking and crawled into the tent. The jacket was still soaked through in the morning.
Next day after drying the jacket on the outside of my pack I wore it again as I reached summit of next hill and witnessed the remaining moisture in the sleeves being pumped out and the jacket dried quickly. It performed well in the brief shower we went through on the way off said hill and I was quite comfy in it as the rain stopped and I opened up the venting.
I know from reading around here that Paramo kit has something of a love/hate thing for a lot of people. I've not yet settled either way, but getting soaked suggests either poor water resistance or the breathability/active pump thing aren't as good as claimed by some!
DB, this summer I've been using a Paramo Quito, in fact I used said jacket also a fair bit last winter for skiing / ski touring / x-country
This is the blub The Quito is Páramo's lightest weight waterproof jacket. The unique directional fabrics from Nikwax, combined with excellent technical design make this jacket ideal for those seeking to travel fast and light.
It packs really well which is one of the benefits as unlike gore-tex you will not damage the material. The venting is great plus the ability to roll the sleeves up your arm, again can't damage the material.
And the Quito does not look too bad either.
Interesting point about the backpack compression, I had a wet patch where the waist belt of my back pack was, I was sort of curious and as the jacket was a bit shabby from a fair amount of use over the months (nigh on six here and the UK and I was going to reproof it) I went and stood in the shower to see if it leaked - slight leak on the shoulder that was all so I reproofed it, but should imagine the area around the waist was due to wear.
Should add that over many years I have striven to find kit that is waterproof and breathable - I sweat a hell of a lot and I have never found any kit to combat that, even Paramo, however their venting system is a real help and the material is so comfortable it is like a soft shell next to your skin unlike Event / Gore-tex.
I also walk my dogs come rain or shine, and living on the Coast that can be very wet with strong winds and whereas other jackets have given up, the Paramo as I'm not sweating whilst walking on the flat kept me warm and dry. Two other mates have gone the Paramo way, one a golfer and the other a serious walker and they now rant about i the gear (in a positive way).
If ever you're in London there is a Paramo shop in Convent Garden, worth popping in to take a look and discuss the various products.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Weathercam,
Paramo seems to be a marmite product - many people either love it or hate it.
The newer Polartec Neoshell appears to be more breathable than Goretex and even eVent while being softer/flexible like paramo.
Ski Touring is my main activity during the winter and I'm coming to the same conclusion as this guy i.e. a soft shell is better for breathability and offers enough protection for most of the time. I tend to wear a merino wool base layer with softshell gillet on the way up and then either an eVent or Goretex jacket on the way down.
DB, interesting video and the Neoshell looks good - interesting in that he says something along the lines of "with the advance of softshell technology will soon make hardshells obsolete"
And so right about the Marmite analogy.
kitenski, I was actually told this by someone at Paramo, and it does sort of make sense, especially bearing in mind how often people complain that their gore-tex jackets are no longer water proof after a few outings, scrunching the hardshell up evidently damages the fabric membrane, as well as rolling sleeves up.
And my Quito does not have that fleece (had to go and check), and like I say it is more like a softshell, I just wear a merino base layer under it and in the summer I've been wearing a light merino T.
If Paramo really did get their act together in terms of design I think they could make a superb cycling jacket, the Quito is just about there, but lacks the all important back pockets.
Check out their Ebay seconds / refurbed store, good service I bought some trousers and they were the wrong size (they do come up on the smaller size) and sent them back and received new ones all in the space of three days.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Weathercam,
As I understand it, Paramo's garments have an internal liner which draws away the moisture. This makes them warmer than just a bare shell but you can wear the jacket without a base layer in warm conditions. The downside to this is that the jacket liner is then likely to stink whereas a merino wool base layer wouldn't (and a baselayer can be more easily changed/washed).
When people say their jacket (e.g. eVent / Goretex) is no longer waterproof I suspect they haven't renewed and reactivated the Durable water repellent coating (DWR). When the DWR fails the jacket doesn't breath either so it's wet on the outside from rain and wet on the inside with sweat making it appear as if the goretex/eVent lining has failed. Although eVent breaths better than Goretex it is more susceptible to getting clogged with dirt up so appears to fail quicker.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Weathercam,
"especially bearing in mind how often people complain that their gore-tex jackets are no longer water proof after a few outings"
What DB said. Incorrect use and care.
"scrunching the hardshell up evidently damages the fabric membrane, as well as rolling sleeves up"
Not in my experience. My last Goretex jacket lasted 11 years ~= 600 ski days plus a bot of sailing and general outdoors use. It's still waterproof except where wear holes have appeared in the outer fabric. It's been packed and folded innumerable times.
Some jackets are better than others however, although our experience is that it's the outer shell that's determined life, not the membrane.
YMMV.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DB wrote:
a) Isn't Paramo too warm for summer or high intensity use? (i.e. a lot warmer than a shell jacket)
I prefer not to wear Paramo in temperatures much above freezing, and I would hesitate to use it for ski touring in bright, sunny conditions. It is heavy and bulky (like any other softshell) so I don't want to be stuffing it into a rucksack for the way up, really.
DB wrote:
b) Doesn't the water pass through in areas that are under compression (e.g. under a backpack?)
In heavy rain, the DWR will 'wet out', in a similar way to hardshell face fabric (though at that point hardshells just get less breatheable, rather than less waterproof). When that happens, keeping the liner dry will get harder and harder, especially if you're a bit hot and sweaty. It'll happen regardless of pressure points, but you'll probably notice it in the shoulders first.
If you're wearing base layers that dry quickly and you're prepared to work hard and stay warm, you can dry it out in reasonable time once the rain stops. I think it feels nicer than wet softshell when it is drying, and it'll dry quicker than a soggy mid layer under a hardshell.
Weathercam wrote:
kitenski, I was actually told this by someone at Paramo, and it does sort of make sense, especially bearing in mind how often people complain that their gore-tex jackets are no longer water proof after a few outings, scrunching the hardshell up evidently damages the fabric membrane, as well as rolling sleeves up.
Decent 3-layer waterproof fabrics can survive that sort of treatment reasonably well. My cycling jacket is made of event, and has spent most of the last few years stuffed into my commuting rucksack. I give it an annual reproofing with nikwax and it still works just fine even in foul weather. It gets stuffed in my bag 'just in case' for ski touring in warm weather when I don't want to cart Paramo stuff around.
Weathercam wrote:
If Paramo really did get their act together in terms of design I think they could make a superb cycling jacket, the Quito is just about there, but lacks the all important back pockets.
They'll do custom mods for you, and their prices are pretty competetive with Paramo.
DB wrote:
As I understand it, Paramo's garments have an internal liner which draws away the moisture. This makes them warmer than just a bare shell but you can wear the jacket without a base layer in warm conditions. The downside to this is that the jacket liner is then likely to stink whereas a merino wool base layer wouldn't (and a baselayer can be more easily changed/washed).
I know old-school Buffalo fibre-pile/pertex kit was supposed to be worn against the skin. My dad did some mountain leader training stuff with a couple of guys that used it... he said that the stench was eye-watering in confined spaces like cars. So on behalf of everyone you'll ever travel with; please always use a base layer
Serriadh, I probably did well over thirty ski tours* last season and the Paramo Quito was used nigh on every one.
Because we are fortunate to live in the mountains we are also able to be choosy about the conditions from day to day that we go out in, so on the whole we were touring early in the morning in sunshine with building temps which would see me usually after half an hour stripping down (Quito off) just to a Craft cycling base layer, rolling the sleeves up etc.
Most of our tours would be to circa 2,500 and with a bit of a breeze at the top first thing to do would be get jacket back on asap (to keep the chill off the sweaty body or swap to a dry base layer) then sit down and have a break prior to getting into downhill mode.
I also did a couple of separate weeks when mates came out and we had a guide so out every day regardless of conditions, and again Quito was my trusty bit of kit.
This pic shows my mates at a summit in their base layers (you can see what the weather's like) whilst I'm still wearing my Quito and light base layer, so not exactly over heating?
And it also performed pretty well on powder days
And was looking through other stuff and I was using the Quito cross country skiing as well, when temps were minus 10 and the venting was great as I got warmed up.
And still pissing down here, so on with all the kit soon to take the dogs out
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Weathercam wrote:
This pic shows my mates at a summit in their base layers (you can see what the weather's like) whilst I'm still wearing my Quito and light base layer, so not exactly over heating?
I have, and use, Paramo gear. Sorry if that didn't come across in my post.
My comments are from actual use. Presumably, I'm just hotter than you
I also have the Paramo Enduro and I only used that in extreme cold, that's why the Quito is very good as a year round jacket, and I do sweat like a pig !
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Cioch Glamaig modified with side zips. Pretty similar to the Quito in terms of weight, feel and weather resistance. It goes on winter hikes and bikerides with me, too. Also got some Aspira salopettes which are much heavier and tougher, but I haven't toured in cold enough weather to make it worth wearing those (I mostly use some lightweight softshell trousers with some full-zip waterproof troos in the rucksack, just in case).
After all it is free
After all it is free
There are days when I'm ski touring that all I have on on the upper part of my body is a thin merino T-shirt. Anything else (especially something with a membrane and/or a liner) would just be too warm. There are very few days I actually need any sort of waterproof (I very rarely ski in the rain) but need to take it with me just in case conditions change. For the most part when I have the waterproof on I'm using it as a windproof barrier (e.g. on a windy peak or on the way down).
I can see paramo stuff being very useful for those days where you have changing conditions e.g. in / out of sun and wind with intermittent rain - basically normal British summer conditions that appear to have spread to central Europe this year.
Can also see that jackets like the Quito would be great for cycling, rock climbing and alpine skiing where the activity levels changes and you run warm then cold but don't want to faff about putting on / taking off a jacket.
http://road.cc/content/review/10945-paramo-quito-jacket
But for constant activity and weather conditions (most of the time ski touring) why wear a waterproof when it isn't raining = most of the time? Is it not better to wear other more breathable clothes and then put on a high performing waterproof (e.g. Goretex XCR / Pro) when the rain strong wind comes in?
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DB wrote:
I can see paramo stuff being very useful for those days where you have changing conditions e.g. in / out of sun and wind with intermittent rain - basically normal British summer conditions that appear to have spread to central Europe this year.
The original designer had Scottish winters and shoulder seasons in mind... -5 to +5 and wet is where old school 3-layer stuff isn't at its best. I prefer to use mine in a softshell role though... it'll cope with weather, but mostly it is there to be a lightly insulated, comfortable and breathable windshell. Which is mostly what you need in skiing gear, really.
DB wrote:
But for constant activity and weather conditions (most of the time ski touring) why wear a waterproof when it isn't raining = most of the time? Is it not better to wear other more breathable clothes and then put on a high performing waterproof (e.g. Goretex XCR / Pro) when the rain strong wind comes in?
I've made this pitch a few times, here and elsewhere. I've yet to discourage a single person from blowing hundreds and hundreds of pounds on top spec waterproof gear they just don't need (Arcteryx Alpha SV for a couple of weeks resort skiing in the alps in the middle of winter? Really?) so I've basically given up
Overlayering is the way to go, and has been for years.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
There are some thin water repellant softshell cycling jackets about that myself and a few others use for ski touring or skiing in warm weather. Under 300g and pack down small. Still, when the poo-poo hits the fan away from civilization my Changabang Goretex jacket is the one I always reach for. If I was just skiing close to resorts then I'd agree, a full mountaineering spec jacket is not required.
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