 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello all
This feels a little like walking into the lion's den, but I'm sure you will all bear with me just a little bit.
Clearly it would be silly of me not to firstly address Mr Marmot and the specific issues raised around his holiday.
We're always sorry when we're forced to re-arrange our customers' holidays. Particularly in your case as I more than most understand just how difficult it is to arrange group bookings with such a large party, and it is a credit that you took the plunge early in the season to get what you wanted.
However I can assure you that we were not aware of the sale of the hotel at the time your holiday was booked in April and we most certainly *did* have a written agreement from our supplier to sell it. We have a good relationship with the supplier and it came as a big surprise to us that the situation changed when it did, and to the extent it did. As other snowHeads have pointed out, these kinds of changes have a significant impact on our business, and we were particularly let down with this situation. Securing hotel accommodation so well located in Meribel is tough, and we continue to seek suitable product at a price deemed relevant to the UK market.
With regard to the alternatives offered to you, I think we have to openly concede that what was offered clearly did not meet your requirements. At the same time our options were somewhat limited due to the party size. We did have accommodation available in Meribel, but not enough availability at a similar grade to the Savoy. The bed and breakfast option was offered due to the location and the alternative hotel offered in Les Arcs was of a higher rating and an upgraded board basis. Having said that I accept we could have tried much harder to fully understand your requirements, which may well have ultimately retained your business. We will have to learn this lesson well for next time.
I do hope that I have been able to clarify our position, and provide a satisfactory response to your specific situation.
With regard to the other points raised within the thread, there is probably too much to go over in one post. What is clear to me having been in the tour operating world for a while is that sometimes tour operators "hide their light under a bushell" so to speak. This can raise some questions (and in the worst cases suspicion) in people's minds about how we operate, to the extreme that it appears there is a section of potential customers in the Ski market who feel that the tour operator offering (both ours and some of our main competitors) is either not relevant to them or not good value for money.
Of course I totally understand that many snowHeads and others actually *enjoy* organising their own holidays - ski and otherwise. However for those who are either ambivalent to the "mode" of booking, or are considering a packaged ski break, we at Crystal believe we have something to offer. Furthermore, we would like the opportunity to demonstrate how we operate a little more openly so that those who are interested can understand what we are trying to achieve for our customers in - as we all know - a very tough and competitive market.
Finally, I realise this is my first post, so for now I'm the "one post womble"  But given a bit of time hopefully both myself and the rest of the team here can get involved and be a productive addition to what is a rather entertaining forum.
Donning protective flak jacket and ski helmet as I type...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Simon Cross, welcome to snowHeads. It's good that you want to contribute and engage in public discussions here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Simon Cross, ^ ^ ^ what rob@rar said.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Simon Cross, welcome to snowHeads. It's good that you want to contribute and engage in public discussions here. |
Hi guys
I will do what I can to help, but we're already seeing how other parts of the team can contribute usefully too. (By usefully, I mean *not* blatant spamming of course).
(Phew, 2nd post)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Simon Cross wrote: |
| (Phew, 2nd post) |
2nd posts are always tricky. Like those troublesome 2nd albums, so glad you've got past that particular hurdle.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm hoping myself and Snowheads don't part citing "creative differences" right now...
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Simon Cross, Welcome to snowHeads and I congratulate you on coming on here and presenting your case it is very commenable of you.
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Simon Cross, welcome to snowHeads 
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brian
brian
Guest
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Mr Marmot, It would be great if you and your party have such resolve that you continue to divert a lifetime's worth of ski and other holiday business away from TUI. They'll never know of course but it will give you some satisfaction everytime you walk into another hotel. |
Oh but they do!
They can see their booking dwindled slowly. And they can see their cost being squeezed by the competition of smart DIY'ers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Simon Cross, welcome to Snowheads and some respect for coming here and actually getting involved in discussions.
I must confess I'm another dissatisfied customer of Crystal, having used them for numerous trips over a long period of time, they havent had any business from me for the past three years ( around 15K to date. ) Since your staff couldnt be bothered to help out in resort and we had to resort to moving premises ourselves for 3 days.
On return and the subsequent letter to yourselves, Crystal decided to take the word of their lying employee. 'nough said really. We have however in the past taken the trouble to write to yourselves when we have had a good experience too.
What some TO fail to realise is is that people who take ski holidays arent often just going once. Most tend to be repeat customers who follow their passion year after year, look after these people well and they will probably return. Or perhaps the TO do realise this and just dont care, going for the fast buck each time.
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You know it makes sense.
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Simon Cross, Welcome to
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Again Welcome!
Any chance you can send me to Austria for £118 half board like you did 3 years back? Then you WILL have my business again!
Just asking 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Simon Cross, welcome aboard. I feel right-of-rpely is an entirely legitemate reason for a commercial first posting - and it is very good when trade suppliers of goods/services respond to snowHeads concerns. Respect.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Simon Cross, Welcome to SH.
Bones, we generally have three ski hols a year, all DIY since my awful experience with First Choice.
There's a good article in the Indipendant magazine today regarding the ski market.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bones, i think you need a drink  come to the bar
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Hello again everyone.
I'm glad it's the weekend, I don't think I'll be able to keep up with you during the week!
@ Bones / Shimmy Alcott -- obviously it appears I could spend quite a bit of time trying to apologise for things that may have gone wrong or less than stellar service in the past.
It is massively incorrect though to say that as an organisation "we don't care".
I guess you could say that we may have been victims of our own success in that the operation every winter is a very large one (we employ more than 1,000 people overseas), and things can and will go wrong. It's the nature of the beast - extreme weather and flying aircraft don't generally get on. As the tour operator in all this, quite a few of the links in the chain are not in our control. While we don't expect pity from people, sometimes I'm not sure whether that is fully appreciated.
Still, we have demonstrated the value of what we do when things do go wrong - the most recent example being last winter when we arranged for over 50 buses to bring people home from the mountains. People seem to forget the extreme lengths that holiday companies go to in order to ensure that people do have a good holiday. In that particular example our overseas team arranged those 50 odd buses in 24 hours, and worked way beyond the call of duty to get people home safely. That is not the behaviour of a team who "doesn't care"!
Now this isn't to say I think the organisation is perfect, far from it. Like most companies we're always scrutinising the way our service is delivered to try to improve it. So we appreciate it when customers let us know both the positives and the negatives. (It's always much better when the negatives are reasonable and constructive of course).
I think our failing is that we don't (currently) do much to show others just how many positives we get back from people every winter. Some of the praise is amazing.
@ pam w -- Obviously it's pretty difficult for us at Crystal to comment on the size of the DIY market. Mainly that is because it's incredibly hard to measure. We are not ignorant to it, and in fact this season we are offering some flexibility beyond the usual 7 night package as a part of our programme. I think the main thing we're trying to understand is why do customers go DIY? Clearly the answer to that question will be pretty commercially valuable!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Simon Cross, A belated welcome to Snowheads , and as others have said, thank you for "walking into the lion's den" as you put it. Respect. 
With regards to your question in your last post about why do customers go DIY, in the spirit of constructive dialogue I will attempt to offer my own reasons for why I generally now go DIY. When I first started skiing it was with a TO, and I continued with this for a number of years. However, more recently the majority of my trips have been DIY for one or more of the following reasons:
a) Wanting to stay in a resort not in the TO brochure.
b) Wanting to stay in a particular accomodation not in the TO brochure.
c) In USA and Canada wanting to visit several ski resorts and do some general sightseeing as well, with the flexibility to vary my plans, so have just gone for a flight and car hire booking.
d) Wanting more flexible dates and durations than just 7 or 14 days, DIY offers the ability to arrive and depart weekdays if necessary.
e) The advent of budget airlines, together with online booking of accomodation has made DIY much easier, and (in many cases) cheaper than a TO's standard prices. I accept that TO deals, particularly last minute can still be attractive.
For the coming season I have so far arranged 1 week self catering with some fellow snowheads in Kaltenbach in the Zillertal (an excellent resort which AFAIK none of the major UK TOs go to), and 1 week H/B in March to Wengen, this time with a major TO (unfortunately not yours as Crystal don't use the hotel I wanted).
I give you these "commercially valuable" answers with my best wishes!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
interesting that the article gives no clue at all that quite a lot of people go skiing without using a Tour Operator - and that quite a lot who do use TOs use smaller ones.
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That's because TUI send out a lot of press releases. Though they would clearly fail even the most basic stats course. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Next half term to St Anton
DIY - £400 each (flight + rail transfer + SC accommodation)
Crystal - £1000 each (flight + transfer + SC accommodation, cheapest for 2 in Austria that week)
Need I say more. Similar story in 2010 to Laax and 2009 to Zermatt.
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Simon Cross Pre children we used to book ski holidays with large TOs. The reasons I have ceased to pay for packages with large TOs are as follows:
1. Travel to resort
Tour Operator packages are on the whole based on travel on a charter flight and coach and this is not a form of transport I would consider any more. So companies such as Ski Esprit who only offer this form of travel will never get my family's custom. Crystal and some of the other TOs offer train travel (our preferred way to the alps) but only to the resorts served by direct Eurostar whereas if you look on the Snow carbon website there are many other resorts accessible by train and their list is not exhaustive. This year we went to Montgenevre and stayed in Le hameau des airelles which is listed in the brochures of several large TOs. However none offered travel by train so we booked the appartment through Peak retreats and our own travel by rail.
2. Cost for a family of 4 and choice of resorts
When we went to la rosiere cimes blanches appartments we looked up the cost for a family of 4 of going with crystal including travel by train and it was significantly more expensive to go with crystal than to book the appartment, train and taxi ourselves. Most TOs specialising in family ski holidays with childcare are even more expensive than crystal so whilst some of the clubs and activities have sounded tempting the only family orientated TO we have used was Snowbizz in puy st vincent whose prices compare favourably with other operators and who are more flexible in terms of how you travel and how much childcare you use. Puy st vincent is also a smaller resort so lift pass prices were cheaper. I don't understand why TOs offering family friendly skiing holidays tend to be in the largest ski areas such as 3 valleys or portes de soleil as really if you have young children and want to spend some time with them in the day you are paying for an expensive lift pass and big name resort but are not going to do enough skiing to get your moneys worth.
This season we have decided to go to les saisies which isn't listed with any large TO and have again booked through peak retreats and sorted out our own travel by train.
for a large TO to get our business back they would have to offer a package including rail cheaper than we can do DIY
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You know it makes sense.
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The other thing about going DIY instead of complete package is that if you are self catering you can book a larger appartment for maybe £50 to £100 more whereas with a TO package there would probably be an underoccupancy charge of a few £100. My husband and I do not like sleeping on coffin style sofa beds so after one bad experience always book an appartment sleeping 6 for a family of 4.
Going DIY you also have the flexibility to stay the night before or after your holiday within reach of the resort meaning you can do 1 or 2 days more skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Flexibility is the main reason I go DIY. I get more choice over when and how I can travel. Fewer very early morning starts. More chance of being able to fit travel round work. I can go mid week if I want, I can take four days or ten if I feel like it. As snowymum, mentioned you get to avoid charter flight and coaches! Trains in Europe can be a real joy. I can stop off on the way if I'm driving. Spend a night in Salzburg or stop for a long lunch in Annecy.
You get more variation on accommodation. Much of the TO market is built round the shared chalet model. Fine, but it isn't always what I want. Catering and service standards can be quite variable too, perhaps not surprising given that operators rely overwhelmingly on quite young and often inexperienced staff. Many of whom are very good I would add and clearly take their jobs very seriously.
And again things like being able to choose where and when I eat are things I like. So flexibility. And somewhere in it all perhaps a greater sense of freedom which is probably why I like being in the mountains anyway.
Price for me is secondary. Quite a few of my DIY holidays have been quite pricey, some have been less so. I still use TOs sometimes, last minute deals especially can be pretty hard to beat for price. And I was glad I was with Ski World last year when the volcano struck and impressed with how they handled it and wrote to tell them so (which by coincidence was the first time I had used a TO in several years)...
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 26-09-10 11:15; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/skiing/travellers-guide-the-201011-ski-season-2088176.html |
Interesting article thanks for posting the link.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I think the main thing we're trying to understand is why do customers go DIY?
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There are various reasons why people go DIY. Basically I started because I purposefully wanted to avoid giving TUI another penny. The reason I stopped was because a telephone sales person from First Choice told me my hotel was near to the creche. It wasn't. It was the other side of the resort. My husband had to walk HOURS each day to get my daughter to and from Creche for just morning sessions. We choose only to ski mornings as we dont think it's fair to put our daughter in creche all day. It meant my husband and daughter had to get up super early and that he was generally quite knackered from having to walk so far, pushing a buggy, before he even started skiing. I spent many hours trying to complain about the situation but the general response was "ah, we're sorry about that". That response was simply not good enough. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is having to phone time and time again and be put on hold for 40 mins before you can talk to someone? I asked for telephone transcripts for the day I made the booking and was eventaully sent some - for a completely different day and conversation. At that point I decided not to waste another breath on TUI.
Last year we had the worst journey of our life, but I have many positive things to say about the journey. Especially how fantastic Snowjet were. I had to make numerous phone calls but someone from Snowjet was there to answer the phone immediately and we worked things out between us. I was also reimbursed the cost of a very expensive transfer we had missed, without question.
TUI's lack of customer care for my one problem has cost them many thousands (we go abroad about five times a year, generally it was with First Choice for Summer and Crystal for Winter).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Simon Cross, We used TO for first three trips to Austria very many years ago but grew to increasingly dislike the hanging around of the transfer coaches - particularly on the return trips when we were ready with bags by the door and then we spent ages in various places for other people to emerge (sometimes from their beds I think). Eventually we moved on to driving with the appropriate discount but with hotel through TO, and then getting really brave (!) driving and booking ourselves into the hotel. We would then book our own flights for Grandpa and elder son to accompany him as not enough room for all of us in the car - and book private transfers for them to the resort.
We have occasionally used a TO holiday in the intervening years when just two of us travelling and we could get a good deal. But its all so easy to book flights, transfers and accommodation nowadays that simple to DIY.
Having said that I can see there is a time and a place for some families to use TO - maybe for their first trip when they don't really quite know what they are doing.
But if you want to be flexible and not just do a set 7 or 10 days, and not weekend travel then you really are better doing DIY.
We are also using Peak Retreats this year to book accommodation - but getting there ourselves by car.
The TOs did come up trumps this year with the Ash troubles - daughter was in Courchevel with Ski Solutions (first time since forever that she has used a TO) and was really impressed by the way they sorted out getting their guests home.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| For the coming season I have so far arranged 1 week self catering with some fellow snowheads in Kaltenbach in the Zillertal (an excellent resort which AFAIK none of the major UK TOs go to), |
OT: let me know what it's like - that was going to be my choice this season for a few sneaky weekend trips (usually go to Zillertal Arena, but was going to try Kaltenbach this time, since it's fractionally closer to the autobahn and comparable in size to Zillertal Arena and Mayrhofen). Hoping to get 1-2 weekends in between new year and s7BB.
OK back on topic now...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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andy, I'll send you a PM.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Simon Cross, a mega-welcome to SH. Please please don't disappear again! There will be feeling-venting and I guess you really will feel like you're being got at, but remember the opportunity to speak with someone at your level with a TO is so rare. Knowing that my views are actually heard and valued really does make me more likely to consider booking with you.
Here are two reasons why I have gone away from TOs in the past. I am not expecting you to address these individual issues, but you expressed interest in why people often prefer DIY trips.
We have a daughter and son (now grown up). When they were younger we booked an apartment for 4 people, paying for two adults and two children plus the underoccupancy because it was an apartment for 4 adults. However, on getting there we were really annoyed to find a local Spanish language notice inside the apartment which stated a maximum occupancy of 2 adults and 2 children. We'd planned to give the children the bedroom and sleep in the lounge ourselves, so we could get them to bed at a reasonable time, but couldn't because the sofa and pull-out were only child sized. What would we have done had we been 4 adults? The next trip we booked DIY - and found we could pay a lot less for an apartment which had 2 bedrooms in addition to the lounge - no brainer really.
My first skiing holiday was in 2007, to Kopaonik Serbia with a tui TO. We'd booked the 4-star Grand Hotel. The transfer bus dumped us in a carpark and the rep vaguely waved a hand in an uphill direction saying the hotel was "up there". We had to walk and drag luggage up an icy hill trying to find the hotel - I am not young and one of the party was late 60s. The rep didn't care - his responsibility ceased at the car park. On the last morning we were told that 2 of the 3 coaches would be at the hotel door - the third would be in the car park. As we were booked under a name late in the alphabet, we were in coach 3. Great. That was hardly the treatment one expects with a 4-star accommodation booking.
I have to say that I WAS impressed with tui's efforts as you describe to deal with the volcanic ash situation and realise that having all the elements of the holiday dealt with by one organisation has its merits. Now, if I am going to book something for just two adults, then I will look at TO offers. If I want something specific, I probably won't. Next year I hope to take 2 trips - Alpe d'Huez 29th Jan and Les Deux Alpes 19th March and I am looking at all possibilities, TO included. I was given 4 brochures by a local travel agent - 3 of which are tui, so virtually identical, the 4th is Neilson. I live in northern Lincolnshire, so of course also have to consider the extra costs loaded on for not wanting a Gatwick departure.
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Others above have said it all, really (about DIY trips). We now have an apartment in a ski resort, so we wouldn't be doing TO holidays anyway (and we never have for anything other than ski holidays) but the suggestion of offering more flexible options has to be a key commercial response to the "flight to DIY". We have a lot of friends and relatives coming to stay with us in our apartment, or borrowing it when we're not there, and being able to travel on quieter, cheaper, days is absolutely critical. Last year a family borrowed our apartment for their first ever ski trip, at half term. They were able to fly out on the Friday and back on Monday, thus getting a longer holiday, saving billions on the flights, and a minimal absence from school. That, plus paying £350 for a 2 bedroom piste-side apartment at half term made it all affordable. 
The grim travelling conditions on peak Saturdays would take much of the pleasure of a ski holiday for me. North American holidays seem to work on a much more flexible basis and it's surely not beyond the wit of man to devise more flexible accommodation and travel options in Europe?
Threads on this forum often highlight the fact that people go for an apparently cheap DIY option, book themselves flights for 5 day weekends, or Tuesday/Tuesday, then come up against not only the difficulty of finding accommodation that fits, but also the high cost of transfers. Uncoupling the flights/transfers from the accommodation might be possible. A lot of people like self-catering but there's scarcely any Austrian self catering in the brochures (we did a rare one for our first ever ski holiday) and there's not much choice of quality/location in France, either. And those wretched "under-occupancy" charges are a huge bone of contention, as Butterfly's post above illustrates. A "put your own holiday together" option, where you could pick an apartment, pay the rent, and put however many people into it (up to the specified maximum) that you want, then find the right flights and transfers, would be a huge step forward. And with some more self-catering options outside France. If that could be coupled with flexible travel dates it would truly be the Holy Grail!
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Booked with Crystal for Wengen this year - fourth time there in three years, counting a summer trip as well. For Simon's interest, we booked independently twice as we were going skiing Mon - Fri on one occasion and Tue - Sun on another, because of work/family issues. For the summer trip we booked accommodation only with Inghams as this was priced at pre-exchange-rate-nosedive prices, can't remember if Crystal does accommodation only but wouldn't have been the cheapest. This time we've booked Sat - Sat with Crystal, who were cheapest for the package, and are very pleased not to have to worry about changing trains 3-4 times to get back to the airport - also they were offering the ski pass £20 cheaper than I could get it for (though not, alas, the ski and boot hire for which we will get the SCGB discount at Molitor Sports).
A very nice touch is that Crystal contacted me a couple of weeks ago to offer a year's free membership of Chill Factore (normally £100). Sounded too good to be true but I went yesterday and have my membership card! A couple of days ago they send an email offering £50 off clothing at some store whose name I didn't recognise (when spending more than £xxx).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Can we get some clarity into this DIY v TO debate.
I (and I assume you) understand that a forum like this is going to attached a vastly higher percentage of DIY'es than is representative of the skiing world as a whole.
But, from the UK, hardy anyone goes skiing DIY.
It is a tiny fraction of the total number of skiers. Of course you can point to the large percentage of people from other parts of Europe that DIY, but, again, you can’t draw the same conclusions as regards to those from the UK. Basically it’s much simpler to DIY if you live in the same country as your chosen resort or live just a few hours drive away, etc.
It is easy to look out of the window and see a line of UK number plates and then equate this with a large number of people but as most cars only take up to 4 people, the numbers just don't stack up when compared to 50 per coach or (avg) 150 to 200 per plane.
If you "really" want the luxury (which is what it is) of deciding which day you’ll start your holiday and for how long you want to go skiing, you can always buy an apartment. Hotels need to run on a volume basis and this means 7/14 nights per stay.
I am not saying this is the right way to keep everyone happy but is for the vast majority of people who take a ski trip from the UK. Hotels, TO's, etc are always going to (have to) go for the majority and simply can not work around the foibles of a tiny number of people not happy with the way things are.
Mind you, to quote Mandy Rice-Davies – (I) he would say that wouldn't he (I)
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Wayne, you really need to stop it with all the sensible stuff or you'll get barred from the forum altogether.
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FAQ
It's true that it's a very tough market, skiing is not a cheap holiday and people are very price sensitive, especially at the moment. But that should be all good for customers - it should lead to innovation and great value. We'd like to think we're focussing on both areas, and without giving away commercially sensitive data, so far it's working!
) the UK cars heading south are almost bumper to bumper. It's not only SHs who are arranging their own holidays. Of course a lot of those families could be heading to accommodation booked through TOs, but I bet the percentage is a lot lower than it would have been in the past.
