Help - need to correct sloppy technique

A snowHead

When carving I find that whilst my “stance” leg (downhill ski) gets a good edge and traction throughout the turn, my “free” leg (uphill ski) is doing almost nothing during the turn and looks like very poor technique. Doesn’t feel right at all.

I believe that it is because my feet are too far apart going into the turn which means that my feet remain too far apart throughout the turn. Does that sound about right or is it soemthing else that I am doing wrong?

A snowHead

Hornster, Very difficult to say without watching you. Feet apart is (generally) a good thing - although how far is another matter.

I can't think why feet 'too wide' will make presurising the inside ski difficult.

Are we talking parrallel turns, or plough/basic swing ?

Is your outside/downhill leg soft, or stiff during the turn ?

Is there an artificial slope nearby where you could have a lesson.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

ski,

We are talking parrallel turns. Downhill leg is pretty much stiff whereas the uphill leg just "flops" about without any effect at all. Makes skiing for long periods, unnecessarily, very tiring.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

As said, difficult to know without watching, but you wonder how evenly your weight is between your feet, if your uphill ski is flopping about. Sounds as though you are almost skiing on one leg.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I'm not an instructor but:

1. doubt its becasue your stance is too wide - this generally makes putting some weight on the inside ski easier
2. could be because you are not angulating enough - more standing vertically on your downhill edge than rolling your knees in and moving your body out (the "comma" shape)
3. could also be because you are in the back seat a little - weight biased to rear part of downhill edge making it very difficult to get ANY weight on front part of uphill edge

just some thoughts

You'll need to Register first of course.

Thanks for the feedback chaps. I managed to find what I was trying to describe from Warren Smith's instructions:

"One is that we all learn to ski from Snowplough to Basic parallel and for most of that time your knees are inside your feet. As you learn to ski parallel, usually in ski school situations or self taught, you learn to work, steer, pressure and generally concentrate on what your down hill ski and leg is doing. Because of this many skiers have a lazy inside leg or an inside leg that just isn’t as effective or skilful as the outer one. Because of this your inner leg will never be working or steering as effectively and in turn will be slower leaving the knee positioning in an a-frame"

This is what I having been doing wrong and why.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hornster,

After all it is free

I'm based in Surrey but don't really fancy dry slopes. I prefer to make the trek up to Milton Keynes and spend a day at Xscape.

Hornster, Book a lesson then ! wink

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Hornster, have you seen this thread - although I'm not at all convinced by those "superman turns". Sounds like you've got the pedalling sorted, but need to get the inside knee out. Do the exercise of pushing the knee into the turn with your hand, and also this thing of pointing your inside femur/knee where you want to go. On tight turns I was doing something similar to what you describe, and it worked for me.

(must get away from this damned 'puter and start packing snowHead

)

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

GrahamN,

That is exactly what I have been doing wrong. I will give the corrective actions a go next time I go skiing. Cheers.

snow reports

Hornster, Another drill for you to ry is to ski on one leg only - i.e. turn both ways using the same ski. - 3 turms onone foot, then 3 on the other.

Hornster,

Get lessons though, it's going to be more effective than learning from a book.

You know it makes sense.

Ski: skiing on one leg both ways sounds like a good idea, scary, but a good idea that just may correct things.

flicksta: I have already booked some ski lessons for January. Although, i'm certain that i will be able to correct this one fault before then so that I can concentrate on the more advanced techniques.

Thanks to everyone for the sound advice.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hornster,

i'm a full cert ski instructor in the USA in colorado. i want to reiterate that you should seek the help of a full cert basi instructor as opposed to trying to glean info from "folks" at a website.

having said that i will try to give you my "two cents".

technique is driven by technology. as recently as the early nineties we were more "outside ski dominant". by that i mean the ski on the outside of the turn radius often called the downhill ski. ski instruction, at least in the usa, has become more interested in what the inside ski/leg is doing. it's at this point you might well say, and so am i you moron re-read my post!

there is a maxim that i have always like....the inside ski is where the ACTIVITY is and the outside ski is where the ACTION is. i hope that doesn't muddy the water.

i'll give you two ACTIVITIES that may translate into a sense of what i'm talking about. stand on a slope and get rid of your poles for a moment. if your uphill foot is in this case the left foot, focus only on the left boot. attempt to slowly tip your left boot until the buckles nearly touch the snow. forget about your right leg. as you do this allow yourself to become grossly bow legged. it is just a drill to exagerate the movement and to create a little muscle memory. have the movement originate in the foot via INVERSION. don't drive the knee, or angulate at the hip, or shift weight. eventually feel as though your left knee is being drawn to the snow as movement moves up the kinetic chain now, stand back up, grab your poles and slowly ski across the slope on a gentle traverse going to the left and again tip your left foot. forget about your right foot. it will mimic the left foot and be drawn into the movement. the goal is for movement to originate with the inside foot and to involve it as opposed to movement merely involving the outside leg.

it is probably folly to describe these two exercises on the internet sans a demonstration, however, i felt obliged to give it a shot.

imho one legged skiing is precisely what you do not need and i think i can make a great argument to anyone who advocates a lot of one leg skiing that for every benefit it gives in terms of balance it can creat a whole host of other issues.

plan to see a basi pro and demand a full cert!

A snowHead

Rusty Guy,

Thanks for pointers and advice. I'm sure that this incorrect use of the inside leg has come about as a result of poor instruction. The instructor seemed to bang on about how important the outside leg is to getting a good edge and obviously forgot to emphasise how important the inside leg is and forgot to teach us what to do with it!!
Maybe next time I will check to make sure he/she is fully qualified beforehand.

A snowHead

Hornster in defence of instructors (coz they make me a better skier), if your last lesson was within recent history then it's unlikely you had poor instruction. When a novice is learning to ski there are a lot of things an instructor needs to communicate, and it may well be that the instructor had time only to reinforce the fact that your down-hill ski edge is important in creating and maintianing a turn. If your previous lessons were had in the last 1 ot 2 years and you'd continued the lessons, you'd find the instructor would later on start also focusing on what your uphill ski is doing during the turn.

Problem is that lessons are short and only so much info can be communicated by an instructor during one lesson.

And also people get to an "intermediate" stage and then stop having lessons.....

Cool

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Manda,

Would it help clarify things better if I said that I have had all my ski lessons in Bulgaria? I have been skiing for 4 seasons now but they have all been in Bulgaria. I didn't think that the instructors were that bad to be honest, but then again, our last instructor didn't speak very much english and generally had a problem trying to get his point across. Brilliant chap though!!

Mental note: I really should start skiing in the alps wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hornster, You can get really high quality, enthusiastic, qualified, native-English speaking instruction, here in the UK. wink

You'll need to Register first of course.

rob@rar.org.uk, I've heard the horror stories, but not knowlingly come across them myself. Mind you I steer clear of EFS and any school that has a reputation for being dodgy....

Hornster where you have your lessons, and the nationality of the instructor, doesn't make a damn bit of difference. What matters is whether the instructor can be bothered to teach, and can effectively communicate the lesson in your preferred language. If not, get a refund and pay someone who can.

Having said that, the highest praises sung on this forum at present are for ski schools/instructors based in France and Switzerland. Haven't heard one way or the other about Bulgaria, sorry. If you're after Alpine instructor recommendations, do a search on this forum.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

ski, who or where would you recommend? I live in Southern England.

After all it is free

Hornster, I note you comments above,

ski, Thanks. Tunbridge Wells is just down the road from me.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

this whole dry slope thing amazes me.

i would argue that anyone focusing on the outside ski is really teaching something that borders on being archaic.

as an aside i'd love comments on the efficacy of the two exercises i described. do they make sense. typically the idea of focusing on the inside leg is met with protest. it is often tough to convince folks that efficient movements with the inside foot/leg result in the right movements involving the outside.

let it rip

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

veeeight, I watched lesson 1 of the Warren Smith Ski Academy DVD's lastnight and he very strongly advocates the need to concentrate on the inside leg to carve the perfect turn. What he said was, and I have to agree with him as I have this exact problem, that when beginners learn to parallel ski they are taught to initiate the turn under control using a snowplough whilst focusing on the outside leg to get a good edge. This is all very well at that stage, but the problem comes when they are not taught to re-focus their attention to the inside leg when learning more advanced carving which results in a lazy inside leg.
In order to get the perfect carve it is very important to get out of the A-frame habit learnt at beginner level and concentrate on directing the inside knee into the slope so as to be almost bow-legged. Get this right and the outside leg will follow.
Warren made it look all so very easy and fluid Mad

There is definitely something to be said for getting people who are beginners to concentrate on actively steering the inside ski even in a plough turn - it does start them considering it as something that is active rather than just letting it follow the other leg - even if it is just to stop the uphill edge getting caught in the snow. I know this means that they are doing the opposite to what they will need to learn when carving but at least it gets the feeling of doing something positive with the inside ski - point and steering the whole plough rather than just steering the outside foot.

I do agree with veeeight though - I certainly would not say it was archaic to think about the outside ski - it is still important to be balanced against it. I think it depends on the ability of the skier involved - a lot of people are talking about an ideal for top level skiers but I am not sure it is of maximum benefit to the vaste majority of people trying to get to grips with carving. I would think they would be better off getting comfortable with the outside ski producing a clean carve - I have seen plenty of people who consider themselves to be of a very high standard still a-framing so for someone first trying carving I would say it is perhaps a bit too much all at once.

You know it makes sense.

Hornster, remember tho, that Warren's vids are designed with people like yourself in mind. Warren doesn't aim at teaching all the basics to beginners. He deals with "intermediates" stuck at the "intermediate plateau" - most often folk like yourself who've stalled in their learning curve (for whatever reason, but often because of a lack of further lessons) and which tends to mean the skier ends up practicing bad habits for a while before deciding their technique could be better....

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Manda, I'm aware of that. Your point being??

A snowHead

I know. It just that it looked like this thread was going off into the realms of "whose instructor is better".

A snowHead

Manda, And you thought that by me saying what I did somehow implied that I was saying that Warren was better than any other instructor? How?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I might add that PMTS is based around the importance of the free foot or inside leg, but does not advocate steering of it;rather Tipping and pulling it (or keeping it back under the hips) throughout the turn.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Ok we are at cross purposes here.

I am *against* a catch-all phrase - that suggests that "focusing on the outside ski is really teaching something that borders on being archaic." Does this apply across the board - beginners, intermediates, advanced, expert?

Imagine the following scenario: Your best mate pays for beginner/intermediate lessons. He regales the days lessons at apres-ski - talking about how the instructor made him/her feel for the "grip" of the ski by standing against the outside ski during the turn. You then turn around and say "focusing on the outside ski is really teaching something that borders on being archaic."

???!!!???

You *must* be balanced against the outside ski for effective turns, snowplough, skidded parallel, scarved parallel, and carved parallel.

So lets talk about Warren's DVD. In high performance carved turns - you initiate the turn by moving the (new) inside knee across - eliminating the A-frame - BUT you are *still* balanced against the (new)outside ski.

As for steering the inside ski when making snowplough turns - again - this is something that I advocate. When done correctly, a good snowplough turn will have a large degree of pivot/foot/thigh rotation, both on the outside AND inside ski.

I'm not taking anything away from Warren Smith. I happen to agree with him on initiating the turn by moving the (new) inside knee across - when skiing at a performance level.

At a higher level, when I'm teaching how to get performace out of the ski and skier - then I start focussing on the inside leg activity - as the outside leg is usually well trained enough to follow.

And anyway. A perfect/pure/true carved turn is only theoretically possible (except maybe in a couple of circumstances)................ Razz

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

This is all far too complicated.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Having been taught to ski in the past few seasons, I can say that in all the lessons that I have had, emphasis is placed on the outside ski. But as we've progressed from beginner to intermediate, then the lessons change to get you to 'think' about your inside ski. My main fault is in having a 'lazy' inside leg. The guy from NewGen in Courchevel had me doing an exercise in which I had to push my inside knee uphill with the opposite hand. It is a good exercise.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

flicksta, fancy a beer? I find lessons easier after a long lunch....
snowHead

After all it is free

i think it is possible to teach movements to beginners that will bode them well throughout their career. i don't think their are beginner's movements/turns vs expert. the movements are the same.....they merely vary by degree.

let's imagine a skier who is making their first turn. i will preface what i say be saying this is merely hypothetical.

the skier is at the top of a very gentle slope headed straight down the fall line. they are standing in a shoulder width stance with both inside edges tipped gently to the big toe edge. they start down the hill and gently tip their left foot to essentially flatten the left ski and it disengages or releases this ski. no weight is transfered, no attempt is made to steer the left tip left.

all things being equal the skier will go left merely due to the inside edge of the right ski being engaged and the left ski being flat.

this tipping movement is the genesis of any modern ski turn. the emphasis or origin initiates with the inside foot.

Might be worth thinking about your arms and hands also. Half way through last season I had a lesson, one fault we tried to correct were my arms, I was told to hold my downhill arm noticeably lower than my uphill, this promoted me, and a few others to also roll both knees into the mountain, making the uphill ski do more work too. Apparently makes a big difference for off piste, it certainly feels more 'right'

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

flicksta, are you knock kneed?

I have a similar problem to you and always thought it was down to poor technique. However it was suggested to me by fellow snowHead RJS, who has a good eye for these things, that I may be very slightly knock kneed (first I'd known). I was doing things correctly but didn't seem to be getting the edge bite I should be expecting on that pesky inside ski.

He suggested that I try shimmimg the outside of my footbed with a cardboard and gaffer tape. Frosties packets work best it seems. This is meant to move my knee more over the center line of my ski/boot. I haven't tried it yet, but will get it done over the weekend.

Worth thinking about.

Help!!

Help - need to correct sloppy technique

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees