 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi
First post in a while but I have watched in utter fascination over the last couple of years. I hope you are all well and enjoying the white and fluffy (or icy, windpack....).
I have followed quite a few of the discussions about 'wide', 'fat', 'backcountry' skis (I cannot keep up anymore) and I have become intrigued about the ' current state of opinion' regarding this area.
Is it better to acquire off piste skill with narrower skis?
Do wide skis give a false sense of security?
Are these sorts of skis a convenient short-cut?
Or, who cares? If the new equipment gives access, then why not?
Stay lucky and happy-even if it's with the ESF!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As that's your 666th post you are the devil and you're trolling 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They make things easier and more fun, some super old school people may not agree and wax lyrical about skiing 'in' the snow on their 210 K2s rather than 'on' the snow. I can ski boot deep pow on my 165 slalom skis but when stuff starts getting deep the extra flotation makes quite a difference.
Why make life more difficult for yourself? It is like playing tennis with a wooden racquet or a new graphite one with poly strings.
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Is it better to acquire off piste skill with narrower skis?
Only in a similar way its better to learn to ski on piste on hoofing great fat skis. Also not all fat skis are the same.
Do wide skis give a false sense of security?
No.
Are these sorts of skis a convenient short-cut?
In the same way that skiing on modern skis and boots is in comparison to leather boots and wooden skis.
Or, who cares? If the new equipment gives access, then why not?
As we've uncovered the only people that care are people that ski once a year and think that anyone doing it different is a bit odd. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is it better to acquire off piste skill with narrower skis?
If you have a world class chef does it matter what oven and pan he used to acquire his craft? Nope once you have the skill you have the skill
Do wide skis give a false sense of security?
No they make life easier and more FUN, Would you plough a field with a ferrari? No you would use a tractor.
Are these sorts of skis a convenient short-cut?
See above the right tool for the job
Or, who cares? If the new equipment gives access, then why not?
Mountains are there to have fun as long as you don't put others in danger!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is it better to acquire off piste skill with narrower skis?
No, why would it be? Obviously usually better with fatter skis. Is it better to acquire basic skiing skills with narrower skis on piste? Now that'd be a yes.
Do wide skis give a false sense of security?
No, if they give a sense of security, it's a very real one. Just like a GS ski gives a very real sense of security skiing long fast turns on a hard icy piste.
Are these sorts of skis a convenient short-cut?
Ever try skiing an icy GS course on widish flappy Rossi S3s? I have. Not pretty. No ski is a short-cut (ok maybe a Rossi B2). It's about the right tool for the job.
Or, who cares? If the new equipment gives access, then why not?
Ski whatever your poison or persuasion but always easier if it's the right tool for the job.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| No ski is a short-cut (ok maybe a Rossi B2) |
LOL. Great ski. Often think I wouldn't have passed my BASI L2 without that ski. Gave them to my 20 something nephew who keeps questioning why I say it's all the ski he needs...
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OK I'll play 
Is it better to acquire off piste skill with narrower skis?
It's better to acquire on-piste skills with the appropriate ski.
Once those skills have been acquired then the transition to off-piste will be quicker and more successful whether on a narrower or wider platform.
Do wide skis give a false sense of security?
To some people I'd say yes. It allows them to access terrain beyond their skill level and mountain awareness level.
Are these sorts of skis a convenient short-cut?
In my experience on Hokkaido, an emphatic YES.
Far more "advanced" skiers will cough up the cash for the latest rockered fat ski than for lessons.
And like snowboarders 'falling leaf' down untracked powder they f*** it up very quickly.
Or, who cares? If the new equipment gives access, then why not?
See the above response about safety.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mike Pow, The statistics would disagree with you though, avi deaths, which I'm assuming make up the majority of off piste deaths, have remained fairly constant since before the advent of fat skis, suggesting that they have not resulted in masses of people going where it is unsafe to do so.
Fat skis are the best skis for skiing off piste, as demonstrated by the choice of ski of people winning the FWT, and therefore, unless you particularly like the feel of skinny skis in deep snow, there is no real reason to hold yourself back by using skinny skis off piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you need wide skis to ski off piste, are you a 'bad' skier?
Yes
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Raceplate wrote: |
If you need wide skis to ski off piste, are you a 'bad' skier?
Yes |
+1. It's ok to just want them though 
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I sort of had the view that using fat skis was some sort of cheat and that I needed to acquire proper skills. Well I can confirm this is a load of junk. Last year I struggled to keep up with all mates off piste (I sank, they didn't ). Last day I rented some fat twins and never ever ever looked back. It's the way to go
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You know it makes sense.
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This is a strange discussion as the answer is pretty obvious. Definitely a troll. Clearly it's much easier to use fat skis than skinny ones, so people who can ski off piste on skinny skis are better skiers than those who can't.
So whilst it might be true that people who can ONLY ski off piste on fat skis are bad skiers compared to those who can use skinny ones, it doesn't mean they're bad people.
Amateur sailors who learnt navigation before the days of GPS (like me) have similar superior mutterings about people who rely on electronics. We still use them, though.  But they can definitely lead some people to tackle passages which they wouldn't do without electronics. And just as fat skis can be used by people with too little mountain knowledge, users of electronic navigation might lack basic seamanship.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| shep wrote: |
| Raceplate wrote: |
If you need wide skis to ski off piste, are you a 'bad' skier?
Yes |
+1. It's ok to just want them though |
That's it exactly!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Raceplate, +1 ......NEED....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Frosty, uh, ? Didn't you just answer your own question? Of course it's cheating!!
I recall one of my original instructors, an Antipodean called Howard, then (1971?) working at the Scottish-Norwegian school on Cairngorm reviewing his day in a pair of New, Plastic!! Boots. (At my tender age, this was my introduction to ski porn, envy, jealousy and the start of an odd skimkit fetish thatnremains with me... Anyway I digress).
"What were they like?" The other guys asked.
"f**ckin' agony", replied the master.
How times change.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rambotion wrote: |
| Mike Pow, The statistics would disagree with you though, avi deaths, which I'm assuming make up the majority of off piste deaths, have remained fairly constant since before the advent of fat skis, suggesting that they have not resulted in masses of people going where it is unsafe to do so. |
Avalanche death is not the only measure of safety off piste.
| Quote: |
| Fat skis are the best skis for skiing off piste, as demonstrated by the choice of ski of people winning the FWT, and therefore, unless you particularly like the feel of skinny skis in deep snow, there is no real reason to hold yourself back by using skinny skis off piste. |
Choosing fat skis to compete in the FWT is not all about the snow, namely landing huge airs.
The bigger the platform the more chance of staying upright on impact.
And yes I particularly like the feel of skinny skis IN deep snow and the enjoyment I get skiing all the other snow conditions the mountain offers up in between.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kevin mcclean wrote: |
| Is it better to acquire off piste skill with narrower skis? |
It is better to acquire onpiste skills first (that will also help you offpiste) on piste while using suitable piste skis. (e.g. flowing linked short turns)
| kevin mcclean wrote: |
| Do wide skis give a false sense of security? |
Soft wide skis enable you to ski offpiste more slowly and help you to remain upright for longer even when you make mistakes. They also give a very nice surfing sensation when you get it right.
| kevin mcclean wrote: |
| Are these sorts of skis a convenient short-cut? |
These soft wide skis are the right tool for the job while skiing offpiste but not great for improving technique while skiing on-piste.
| kevin mcclean wrote: |
| Or, who cares? If the new equipment gives access, then why not? |
Getting into the offpiste when you are not quite ready can mean a lot of falling over, losing skis etc. Quite a lot of offpiste injuries and deaths occur not just because of avalanches (people lose control and ski off cliffs, hit rocks & trees etc) Better to go wide because it improves the skiing sensation as opossed to a crutch that enables you to stay upright for longer offpiste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have skied a pair of whitedotskis preachers 112 underfoot almost exclusively for the last two 2 years.
No rocker and a little side cut a definite one quiver ski with surprising nimbleness on piste.
Last holiday myself and my eldest (same size feet) swopped between these a pair of high society FR(94 underfoot) and a pair of atomic nomads blackeye (around 80 underfoot?)
Conditions varied between 12 inches of fresh powder and perfect grippy pistes( no ice)
Having not skiied anything less than 112 for the last 2 years it was very interesting to ski on relative skinnies again.
Although the preachers will with the requisite skill level do anything,when I swopped onto the atomics it was an OMG moment.Id forgotten just how good it was to 'carve at the limit' and to feel that pop out of the turn and mega edge hold.
The HS FRs were a nice compromise but to swop around every hour or so was very good for my skiing. Interestingly the atomics performed much better in the powder than I thought they would.
It's all relative to your own skill level but it gave me the confidence for the 1st tme in ages to think 'go skinner' rather than fatter.
Proper powder day = fatties, but for most other scenarios they are too much of a compromise.
If possible being on the right ski for the conditions is the way to go but more importantly no matter what ski you choose the basic skill levels need to be in place.
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hedley, + lots
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hedley, well said.
As others have picked up on, the relevant word is 'NEED'!
I went heli skiing in Whistler a few years ago. The best skier in the group by an absolute mile was an ancient Austrian ski instructor. He was on Rossi 9x GS skis - waist 68mm.
Mind you, he was absolutely dead after 3 drops
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Raceplate, i spent my first ever afternoon heliskiing on Rossi 9Xs as well.
The next day I didn't...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Raceplate, Was that the ski's or his age ?
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Conditions are rarely optimum for fat skis, even off piste. I like to ski semi-fats (Missions in my case - 90cm waist) so I can carve hard surfaces well, as well as ski powder. (Airlines discourage the idea of a quiver, even if I could afford more). It is just a matter of what allows me to ski with the most satisfaction.
As everyone said, the relevant word in the question is Need. I certainly ski powder less well with piste skis and carve piste less well with fat skis. Well, you'd expect that wouldn't you.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 29-03-13 12:58; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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under a new name, I spent my first trip on Stockli Stormriders (74mm I think).
The next one I didn't...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you need wide skis to ski off piste, are you a 'bad' skier?
No, I don't think so, no more than if you need piste skis to make a half-decent fist of a race course, you are a 'bad' skier. Just not a very good one.
Raceplate, yep, loved 'em. Then one day I got on another pair of skis and discovered that my B2s had been covering up and possibly nurturing my poor technique. Use 'em as teaching skis now but keep meaning to take them out for a proper ride one day.
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| snowball wrote: |
| (Missions in my case - 90cm waist) |
Where do I sign up for those monsters? Even I could handle breakable crust with that kind of waist. They are the Eric Pickles of the ski world.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, Oops
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, that doesn't stack up at all. He hasn't worked out surface area, only underfoot width. No accounting for length, tip/tail width, effects of rocker, virtues of sidecut length/taper, flex patterns, snow density... It's pretty meaningless really, especially as who is to say how much 'float' is 'enough?' It's not just about 'not touching bottom,' what about surfiness, pivotability, turn sizes and types... It's all about sensation, and it's hard to put that in numbers.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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clarky999, you're right, but food for thought. Instead of buying one pair of all-mountains we should have a pair of full-fats and a pair of piste skis. If money no object and airlines didn't have carrying charges it may make sense
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Find out the width of your ski boots, try keep the skis at this width, simples.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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peanuthead, I find medium fat are the best for most of the time, off-piste. But most importantly I don't want to carry another pair around on my back to change onto as I move from one surface to another. Do you regularly have exclusive piste days and off-piste days?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Raceplate,
I loved my Stormriders, they were great off piste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Find out the width of your ski boots, try keep the skis at this width, simples. |
Yes, the significance of this is commonly overlooked.
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snowball, I don't own skis, I have been thinking about making a purchase all year but won't happen now. Like you I would be thinking about a pair of all-mountain, as at the end of day I spend more time on-piste than off. (I liked a pair of dynaatar cham 86 recently). The referenced article would suggest I keep renting and get extra fats for powder days, but recently in st anton of all places I was told at shop they had nothing fatter than fisher waiqa 82 so you can't assume you'll get what you want with rentals. I found those mid-fats fine but would I have skied much better in something mid 90s or more? Should I think about purchasing fats and rent o piste days(kinda destroys purpose of owning skis to have to rent)? As I said food for thought
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slikedges, what is the significance of that? The contact points between the boot and the ski aren't at the widest point and most of your ability to lever to boot laterally surely comes from higher in the cuff?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| DB, that doesn't stack up at all. He hasn't worked out surface area, only underfoot width. No accounting for length, tip/tail width, effects of rocker, virtues of sidecut length/taper, flex patterns, snow density... It's pretty meaningless really, especially as who is to say how much 'float' is 'enough?' It's not just about 'not touching bottom,' what about surfiness, pivotability, turn sizes and types... It's all about sensation, and it's hard to put that in numbers. |
OK it was written some time ago so isn't bang up to date and it's unclear if the same ski length or typical lengths for different weights were used. Having said that I think it gets the main point across that weight plays a major factor in determining what is the optimum offpiste ski for a particular skier.
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DB, same with piste skis. Weight and skill are the determining factors because they are the main causes of the forces applied to a ski. That's just stating the bleeding obvious.
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FAQ
