 Poster: A snowHead
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It is nearly certain that we can manage short ski break over Easter 2013.
Given we drive from Amsterdam, and it is but 4 days, I've come up with Engelberg as the best of all worlds given our requirements. Namely the combination of close to home, high altitude and piste difficulty - plus available and affordable accommodation.
After reading several threads on here, lots of folks talk about getting a guide for the off piste stuff, which seems to be the most interesting skiing there.
So, my question is,
1) is a guide, recommended, nice to have, strongly advised, or don't do it without a guide
2) are there other resources to figure this out, since presumably the piste map doesn't help you in this area
3) if getting a guide, is a 1/2 day good enough, a couple 1/2 days, or everyday?
4) recommendations for a guide.
We are good advanced intermediate skiers I would say...I described in another post as:
My oldest daughter skies a black (or double black) run, like it's a green
My second daughter skies a black (or double black) like it's a blue
And I ski a black in a steep mogul field, well, like it's a black. It is more mental than anything else with me, I have the skill, just lack courage and confidence after having a 15 year skiing hiatus...think I'm too old, blah, blah... Anyway, I do make it look really hard, and likely if I relaxed a bit more instead of letting myself get too freaked out, I would ski it easily, albeit, not easily as daughter #1.
I hope I've given enough information for folks to advise me. If you read between the lines that I'm slightly adverse to shelling out money that isn't necessary, then you have read correctly, on the other hand, I'm not keen to spend money on transport, lodging and lift passes only to have a mediocre ski experience because I wasn't clever enough to book a guide.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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no opinions?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You will ski the pisted area out very quickly although it is a very good pisted area. The Laub is easy to find without a guide if you do a quick search on the web for how to accees it and dead good fun, any more serious off piste undertakings are likely to require a guide. I spent two unguided days there, thought it was excellent, would probably have needed a guide to stay entertained for the third.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rambotion,
thanks, that is exactly the kind of information I needed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You might consider Laax if its not too late.
Otherwise, you dont necessarily *need* a guide, however a lot of the skiing on Engelberg is over a glacier.
You will therefore need good visibility and a healthy amount of common sense.
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I was considering Laax, it looks we could book a room at the http://www.mountain-hostel.ch/home.htm.
I usually do s/c, but that just looked too tempting, also the drive to Laax is 30 minutes longer each way, not a train crash, but we are driving from Amsterdam, and leaving after school, which means a midnight arrival, and can't get up to that location in Laax that time of day...
and to be fair, my option in Engelberg is 600 CHF all-in for the 4 nights, 3 min walk to the gondola...which all seems pretty decent to me.
nixmap, don't know what you mean with a healthy amount of common sense, we don't have experience with off piste...which is what has me a bit concerned...but I am the type of skier that tries to first ski somewhere where I can get a good visual overview of the 'off map area' before I venture off the map...I like to know what I'm getting into.
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HeidiAmsterdam, how's it going? Engelberg is a great place to ski and should be great fun. I would, however, recommend getting a guide if you are not confident off piste skiers. The Laub is the easiest route to locate and is great fun, but can be subject to slides. Especially if you go skiers left. You would also need a guide to go on the glacier off piste due to cravasses and ice. Engelberg has some serious free riders, so following tracks could lead you to some very difficult terrain.
I do think your daughters will have a great time skiing there and i think you would enjoy it a lot but I would suggest a guide. If not, make sure you have the necessary safety gear.
DF
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Dublinfella,
Thanks for that...now to arrange one... should we go. It sounds like the first day we stick to the pistes and scope a few things out, then hook with a guide for the second day...but all this talk of guides/equipment had kinda got me a bit spooked. I'm not ready to up our game for a 4 day ski with off-piste equipment and the like, and it sounds as if we'll be bored with piste skiing in 2 days time... especially the oldest, she goes on, and on, and on...her physical condition is to be envied. Off piste, she trains 4 times a week on the football pitch, and typically plays 2 games on a Saturday, under 13, then under 15, and she's 11. She can handle just about anything someone throws her. (i used to be like that at her age).
Believe it or not, I'm still waffling! They have one family room left in the hostel at 2200 meters in Laax, and it will cost me about the same as my Engelberg option...I'm just still waiting for the reservation agent to confirm the prices, as the prices she quote me were a bit dearer than what the website posted...
All my waffling around...I'm doing my own head in. Thank goodness I have myself sorted for Christmas already, you all will be spared from waffle dance~
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just booked Engelberg...
I wanted to do Laax, but some logistical issues, like we arrive Thursday midnight, can't get into the mountain hostel, need to book another hotel, what do I do with my dog, and my husband will have to work with him, so an apartment is better suited to that...
Now, seems like I should set up a guide!
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
| and to be fair, my option in Engelberg is 600 CHF all-in for the 4 nights, 3 min walk to the gondola...which all seems pretty decent to me. |
Which gondola ? There are lifts on both sides of the valley.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rjs,
Titlis-cable car = 3 minutes to walk, says the property manager/owner...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So, if anyone has a recommendation for a guide in Engelberg, would be appreciated...
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HeidiAmsterdam, Roger Christen is good
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You know it makes sense.
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I was down there last week and had a day with a mountain guide.
I would recommend Patrick Muhmenthaler. Very confident in the mountain!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Woosh,
Where / How did you hook up with Patrick?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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HeidiAmsterdam, I skied with Patrick a couple of weeks ago and was very impressed. Set a good pace, found some very nice lines, good company. Thumbs up
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just got back from 4 days in Engelberg. It is an off piste paradise and there are tonnes of different routes that are easly accessible without a guide - you can plan your way down on the way up on the chair lifts/cable cars. If you have done a fair amount of off piste before then it should be fine. There are lots of cliffs etc but you just need to be careful and proceed with caution at first. We did see lots of "other tracks" and wondered how to get there - this is where a guide would come in handy. I would maybe get a guide on the first day to show you all the good stuff and then go on your own. My view anyway. On piste is fairly limited and most were very hardpacked and icy. We were lucky with off piste as we had lots of fresh stuff! Enjoy 
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BMG,
Sadly, we aren't going for the off piste. I am skiing with my two girls, aged 10 and 11, and I'm not about to start with them off piste, with the required equipment.
NEXT to the piste and marked itineraries, is something else. The easily ski blacks and double blacks, and Plan du Fou and Mt. Fort don't even phase them... so whilst they have the skill, it isn't something I want to start with them just yet, plus, my condition/skill is somewhat less than theirs... I've made great progress this year, leaps and bounds ahead of where I was a year ago, but not yet to where I was in my youth...which is more like how my kids ski...
But, someone that knows the mountain and can show us the fun stuff, is on the program! Just not the proper off piste stuff.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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HeidiAmsterdam,
I skied Engelberg (for just one day, but from first lift until the last, pretty much) in February. From the sounds of it, your level isn't too different from mine (though sounds like I'm a little way behind your daughters!).
I'd say if you're not bothered about doing some of the big off-piste routes (Laub, the runs down from Titlis under the Gondola etc) and you're happy staying within sight of the pistes, a guide may not be necessary.
It's true that you'll probably ski out the pisted area within a day or two (I think we did pretty much all the pistes, except the lower ones through the trees, in one day, and I assume some of the lower stuff might not be great at the end of March anyhow). However, there's plenty of interesting stuff in between and adjacent to the pistes if you're good skiers.
Some recommendations, using this piste map http://www.bergfex.com/engelberg/panorama/ as reference:
1) The black pistes on the map actually aren't too hard at all. I had heard Engelberg had a reputation as an expert resort, but honestly I think the short black directly under the Laubersgrat chair is the easiest I've done ANYWHERE, at least early morning when pisted. Basically a red. The black just adjacent to it (to the left on the piste map, skier's right) is harder, a "proper" black, it's very steep at the top but also very short. I imagine it'd be a real challenge if mogulled/unpisted. You need to take the short cat track off to the skier's right at the top of the "main" black to reach it. I think you also get onto the Laub off-piste route on this side. There's also some safe off-piste just to the right of the "main" black, I think there's a little peak of rocks in between, separating the two black runs.
All the reds are worth doing, reasonably steep by most standards, I'd say they're all "intermediate" runs.
2) The other marked blacks, on the Jochstock side, are fairly easy. The lower one on "graustock" doesn't seem to be pisted (or well marked), and there are multiple "between piste" routes between this black and the two reds to the left of it on the piste map. The higher of the two reds (below Jochpass) in particular is a straight-ish trail, but with a small off-piste bowl off the edge which takes you down to the speedgun area and the other red, or down to the Trubsee hopper on the other side. We did quite a lot of playing about on here, but it's safe and not especially challenging but was quiet and powdery when we were there.
3) Going down the black run under the Jochstock express chair, near the top and off to the skier's left, there's an off-piste area which had a significant mogul run on it when we went, which you can join from the piste and then re-join the black run further down. You can see it & therefore plot a line down it from the chairlift. Further up this slope, there's a few rocks, but the area around the mogul run seemed totally safe to us. You can also ski between the black and the red, from memory.
4) Skiing between and next to all the red runs on the Trubsee/Stand area (beneath the Laubersgrat lift) is possible. You're never out of sight of the piste, and there are a few interesting entries and exits from the "off-piste" bit.
5) There's a very short, slightly off-piste mogul run up on the Titlis glacier, between the two red runs. You can also ski down the bits alongside the drag lift. Although there's surprisingly little interesting skiing on the glacier, it's worth it for...
6) The "Rotegg" itinerary run down from the glacier to stand. This is a long-ish, unpisted black run, which had large moguls on it when we were there. I can imagine it'd be much easier in fresh snow but was quite a challenge with the moguls - I'd say similar to Tortin in Verbier, but somewhat shorter (apparently it's about 2km but didn't feel that long to me). I would think you could do several different routes down here. It's the 8th photo on here http://www.bergbahnen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1065
There's also an itinerary, a black and a couple of reds on the opposite side of the valley, although we didn't go over there, might be worthwhile for half a day or so.
If you're not happy on doing "proper" off-piste away from the runs, I don't know if you'd really need a guide to do any of this. That said, might be possible that a guide might show you some other interesting routes within sight of the pistes, I don't know if any other more off-piste-happy members could expand on that?
If you're only wanting to ski between and next to the pistes, you might find that four days is perhaps a day too long. You could consider a day-trip to another resort, I believe there's plenty within an hours' drive or so.
One final tip - make sure you're on the first gondola fairly early in the morning. We got onto it around 9-9:30 and got straight up. Some friends got there 30 minutes later and weren't up at Stand until after 11am (although this was a Saturday). There's a lot of Chinese tourists going up to Titlis, for some reason. The top lift station is a weird place.
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Felonius_Monk,
Thanks so much for this, it was like a trip report, and about the way we are likely to be skiing... Because I anticipate the afternoon snow may not be nice, we may just ski early in the morning, until about 2, then head back and hang out, go swimming or sit in the sun...
Being this is ski day 22-26 for us this season, we aren't hell-bent on maxing out our board time...
What you described sounds just perfect for me and my mini maniac's...
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Yeah, I guess if you're likely just skiing until 2ish, you could have a day doing Stand/Titlis area, and a day doing the Jochstock side (the link between the two is either a slow pole or a flat, slow chairlift; probably to link the two sides is at least a 30-minute trip) to maximise your skiing time. Then maybe a day on the Brunni side of the valley (although I've not been, I can imagine there'll be some off-piste next to/between the runs as well as the four main pistes). Then wherever you fancy on the last day! I guess if you feel like there's another day's skiing on Stand/Titlis side (after day one) you could decide whether or not you'd need a guide on day 2 to show you a bit more off-piste stuff.
Make sure you get your kiddies onto the speedgun run on the Jochstock side as well. It got very competitive between our group 
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Also, a good thing about Engelberg is that the skiing standard is really high (sounds like your daughters will fit right in!) - I'd say our group was solid intermediates, all happy enough on black runs, and other than a few tourists on the Jochstock side, we were about the worst skiers on the resort  . You can get some good speed up on the reds/blacks without worrying about smashing into any snowploughing beginners.
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FAQ
