I had a ski holiday in France last week, this was my 4th holiday and my first without lessons.
At the end of my 3rd holiday a couple of years ago I was skiing reds and some blacks very comfortably. This year though I couldnt find the confidence to pick up the speed, particularly when the reds got very bumpy and rutted.
Are there any tips you can share, would it be worthwhile getting some tuition at snowdomes etc? (they dont have bumps but may help with technique which could help)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
panthersdave, welcome to SHs. If you live near one of the snowdomes lessons would certainly help. But also, don't have a holiday without lessons. A private lesson on the first day will get you going again and ask for some tips on what to practice. Then, if the money runs to it, have another lesson - maybe on day 3. And DO practice, especially the things you find most difficult.
But hard rutted snow, icy bumps etc - are difficult. There's no need to go quickly - every reason not to - but it does help to have the confidence to get a bit of rhythm going, turning regularly.
Good lessons will give the kind of basic technique that you need for all situations.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w wrote:
panthersdave, welcome to SHs. If you live near one of the snowdomes lessons would certainly help. But also, don't have a holiday without lessons. A private lesson on the first day will get you going again and ask for some tips on what to practice. Then, if the money runs to it, have another lesson - maybe on day 3. And DO practice, especially the things you find most difficult.
But hard rutted snow, icy bumps etc - are difficult. There's no need to go quickly - every reason not to - but it does help to have the confidence to get a bit of rhythm going, turning regularly.
Good lessons will give the kind of basic technique that you need for all situations.
This.
Also, a relatively new skier you may not have appreciated just how much snow conditions can affect percieved difficulty. Even down to the same run on the same day. E.g., a groomed red run first thing may be really hard and icy, making it difficult to ski with confidence. As the day warms up the snow softens and the skiing becomes easier. Later in the day the surface becomes uneven with fluffy heaps of snow interspersed with patches of icy base, skiing gets much harder again. At 11.00am you'll be thinking hey this skiing lark iseasy, I've got it sorted, just to fall into despair by 3.30, when nothing seems to work.
As a reasonably experienced skier I now pay far more attention to the conditions under foot than I do to the colour of the piste or its steepness, and I judge my performance accordingly.
Thanks for the comments, I will take them onboard.
Last week was the first time that I had begun to appreciate the different snow conditions, the piste was changing almost hourly as it was very hot and a run that was easy one day was a real challenge the next.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
panthersdave, if you have 3 weeks of instruction, assuming it was any good of course, then I don't see how further instruction is going to help. As Spud9 suggests perhaps you are just discovering how snow conditions can affect the difficulty of a slope. Piste gradings are a necessary evil. But they are only a basic indicator. Forget the grading and look at the slope for what it is at that given time. Accept and enjoy the challenge. Confidence comes from struggling but coming through it and doing it better next time.
if you have 3 weeks of instruction, assuming it was any good of course, then I don't see how further instruction is going to help.
I disagree with this. I think continuing tuition is very important if a skier wants to break through the intermediate plateau.
The rare gifted skier may be able to progress from a three week intermediate to being an expert skier on nothing more than hours skied and copying better skiers, but most of us need professional feedback to correct our bad habits and show us how to get better.
The more I ski, the more aware of my failings I become.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
if you have 3 weeks of instruction, assuming it was any good of course, then I don't see how further instruction is going to help.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Spud9, beat me to it!
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Layne, are you seriously suggesting all anyone needs is 3 weeks of lessons and no more???? I've skied 30+ years, can ski all runs on the mountain and am still learning both from lessons/training and personal experience.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
panthersdave,
Difficult to say without seeing you ski but it does sound like the last time you went skiing the conditions were easy. (Nice grommed pistes). As Spud9 says the same run can change throughout the day - the warmer the day the quicker things generally change. As the snow/piste condition changes, adjustments to the skiing style are generally made. (e.g. Softer snow = more two footed / equally weighted skiing). Are you trying to ski the slopes always using the same style irrespective of the conditions ?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Time On Snow - the more the better. At 4 weeks you're very inexperienced and shouldn't set your personal expectations too high. As others have said snow conditions change and particularly this time of year - different snow conditions are one thing that stops you getting bored from skiing, always a challenge to be found. Last week when I was out skiing in a single day I'd find nice early morning groomed piste, some compacted powder, wind blown crust, sun crust, spring firn, slush, the odd icy patch, bumps, tree skiing, ladders to climb, tunnels to crawl through, a traverse to walk across that you didn't want a to fall from, ski touring up, a small avalanche to contend with and sometimes tired legs. All very educational, particularly the crust. Always good to push outside your comfort zone, you'll feel so much better when you're back in it. And of course lessons or skiing with people far better than yourself and pushing yourself a bit. If it feels like the mojo is seeping away take a break and try again.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DB, yes I havent had the experience or tuition to adjust my style depending on conditions. Also a few of our group commented that the pistes last week were not that well prepared.
As a result I may have being skiing 'wrongly' for the conditions caused by the hot weather.
This is something I will look to address, thanks
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
panthersdave,
Your 3 weeks of lessons have most likely concentrated on skiing well prepared pistes. The art of skiing incorporates many different styles and skills. These can be described as a tool box of skills. A good skier has an extensive range of tools and knows which ones to use for the various conditions. If you want to be a good skier it's important to develop each tool. Normally this takes more than a lifetime. ( not just 3 weeks )
Here's an example of how a skiing style may be changed to deal with softer conditions
Buy a fat pair of skis, feet apart weight both, just like a piste basher lovely
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I agree with the time on snow comment, but think time on skis might be a better way of thinking about it. I find the snowdomes and even dry slopes useful for keeping in practice over the summer, and like to have a tune-up lesson before going away.
I've never got on well with group lessons, but have learnt a lot from private lessons. I generally try and get one on day 2 and 4, using day 1 to warm up on mainly blues and greens. I've found that if I have a lesson on day 1 it is spent telling me things I know, because I'm skiing below my real ability before I find my ski legs.
I also struggled this year with the conditions. A red which I'd loved on day 1 and 2 became beyond my ability when covered with choppy snow and a few bumps on day 3. The icy blue was also tricky at the end of the day, but lovely in the morning.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Learning (first time) in early April last year in VDI our instructor kept saying "this snow is no good for learning" as it was ice in the morning and slush in the afternoon "which ees not very interesting" - with nothing to compare it to though I have no idea really but it did hurt to fall over in the morning and then was hard on the legs in the avo
Steve Young is my new favourite person "i don't know about you" - yes you do Steve, you know us all too well - we all need some energy to do some "hot-tubbing"
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Curzonian wrote:
Learning (first time) in early April last year in VDI our instructor kept saying "this snow is no good for learning" as it was ice in the morning and slush in the afternoon "which ees not very interesting" - with nothing to compare it to though I have no idea really but it did hurt to fall over in the morning and then was hard on the legs in the avo
Steve Young is my new favourite person "i don't know about you" - yes you do Steve, you know us all too well - we all need some energy to do some "hot-tubbing"
That bit of the video made me laugh, I really dont think I want to know what he was getting up to in the hot tub that needs all that energy
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Funny but I can't say that I can agree with Steve's tips. Isn't that just teaching someone to bank into the hill?
Funny but I can't say that I can agree with Steve's tips. Isn't that just teaching someone to bank into the hill?
Yes I wouldn't say bank the turns (but I couldn't find a better clip on youtube) but instead of putting the weight predominately on the inside edge of the outside ski, put the weight across the whole base of both skis when skiing soft snow. The softer the snow the more the weight is put on the inside ski up to a maximum of 50% of the total weight on the inside ski.
panthersdave, if you have 3 weeks of instruction, assuming it was any good of course, then I don't see how further instruction is going to help.
You're kidding, right? I've skied for 30+ years, more weeks than I can remember, have an instructors licence and I still try to get at least a couple of weeks coaching each season. I'm still making improvements to my skiing. Today, for example, looking at how rotational release influences the turn shape that you make, with some great input from a really good coach.
If you think that skiers can't learn anything more after three weeks of (even world class) instruction you are just plain wrong.
lessons, lessons, lessons and more lessons. You're never done learning. I ski 60+ days a year and have been skiing for nearly 30 years and grab the chance for a lesson or some coaching whenever I can.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
panthersdave, btw welcome to SH's. Tuition at snowdomes and dry slopes is well worth it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
steph wrote:
panthersdave, btw welcome to SH's. Tuition at snowdomes and dry slopes is well worth it.
+1 ......she says, having returned from a full day of coaching at Hemel Snow Centre
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Iski, I had the good fortune to learn to ski on Plymouth's John Nike ski slope! and benefited from some amazing coaching. Bizarrely and by happy chance at the time (late 80's early 90's) there were 3 or 4 BASI trainers teaching there at any one time
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Me too, only mine was yesterday! A very useful indeed "Building Confidence" clinic
With roughly 2 weeks on the snow myself, and half a dozen loooong lessons at Hemel over the last few months plus some practice there, all I can see is that I've barely scratched the surface. I feel like I'm doing okay when I practice but then I have a lesson and I realise just how wrong I was!! And after the lesson my skiing (usually!) steps up yet another notch. Hemel may not be a mountain but it's fine for learning and practising technique.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Well just to be clear to all the denegrators I am not commenting per se on how much or often anybody needs lessons/coaching/instruction, call it what you will. God forbid someone might have a different opinion. But if the OP did 3 weeks solid lessons then I would have thought that was enough to be going on with. He said he was no longer feeling confident on the same type of slopes he felt "very comfortable" with on his last trip. Either he has regressed very quickly or there is another explanation. Anyway these days I usually avoid discussing such matters as the general reply on Snowheads these days seems to be take more lessons and/or get down to Hemel every weekend. So I shall flounceo off to see if I can find a less controversial thread... if there is such a thing these days.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Layne wrote:
He said he was no longer feeling confident on the same type of slopes he felt "very comfortable" with on his last trip. Either he has regressed very quickly or there is another explanation.
The most likely explanation, as others have said, is that the snow conditions on those slopes were more difficult that he had previously encountered and he found that his skills weren't able to cope. Improving his skills will mean he can be comfortable on a wider range of terrain and a wider range of conditions. There are different ways of improving your skills, such as instruction videos or books, discussion on online forums, choosing the right skiers to emulate, etc. In my experience getting good quality lessons is the most effective way to improve, although obviously there are cost implications on top of an already expensive holiday.
The problem with your reply to the OP was that, no matter what your intention, you said that more than three weeks of instruction wasn't going to help. Clearly that's wrong, which is why a few people responded to you in the way that they did. When I first started skiing I had three weeks of lessons and then stopped for a range of reasons. I then spent 15 years practicing my bad habits until I had perfected them, limiting the terrain and the conditions I could ski. Many years later I'm still putting right the problems that I ingrained in my skiing.
Finally, I think the phrase you're looking for is "people who disagree with me" rather than "denigrators".
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DB wrote:
panthersdave,
There's no substitute for lessons or time on the snow but this book might also help ....
+1 this book improved my skiing more than any amount of private lessons I got
I think that might be me to a certain extent - I learn better on my own, reading it and then applying it myself. This book really helped me to do this and just reading it, thinking about it, then taking an hour now and then on my own and practicing it made a massive difference to my skiing.
In fact its time to get it back out again!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
But also, don't have a holiday without lessons
I'm sorry, but I really don't agree with this.
Layne wrote:
Well just to be clear to all the denegrators I am not commenting per se on how much or often anybody needs lessons/coaching/instruction, call it what you will. God forbid someone might have a different opinion. But if the OP did 3 weeks solid lessons then I would have thought that was enough to be going on with. He said he was no longer feeling confident on the same type of slopes he felt "very comfortable" with on his last trip. Either he has regressed very quickly or there is another explanation. Anyway these days I usually avoid discussing such matters as the general reply on Snowheads these days seems to be take more lessons and/or get down to Hemel every weekend. So I shall flounceo off to see if I can find a less controversial thread... if there is such a thing these days.
At last, someone, IMHO, talking sense. Well done Layne!
I disagree with a lot that has been written here saying lessons lessons lessons. What I think the OP probably needs is miles under his skis not yet more input and things to forget to do, its meant to be a holiday not boot camp.
Providing that with what you have learnt so far you are able to ski safely, panthersdave, if I were you I'd just get out there and enjoy yourself, potter over to St Martin and have a vin chaud, then mosey up to Menuires for Tartiflette at Skilt, nip over to Mottaret for an afternoon evian (substitute your own ski resort and comestibles here!) , but whatever you do just enjoy being out in the air on skis and consolidate what you've already had drummed into you. If you feel the need for some hints grab a book or watch some videos that will reinforce some point or other, e.g. I've heard of the Darren Turner series having good results (youtube.com/v/eRkuiM0HyMw) , I'm sure you will find more.
(also I wouldn't leave it quite so long before your next ski holiday)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
It sort of depends on what lessons the OP had. If it was ESF large group, he might not have learned an awful lot. No, it should be a holiday not a boot camp but if he is struggling, it's not much fun. A couple of hours with a private instructor would probably be a good idea. (I don't have lessons every holiday either.)
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thanks for the advice everyone.
I think its fair to say that due to the different conditions I had last week I had a cricis of confidence. I will aim to resolve this by improving technique by having some one to one tuition - this should enable in instructor to focus on specific things to work on rather than a generic set of instructions. I also had never thought that a book would be a good way of learning, I am willing to give this a try.
I also think one or two lessons during my next holiday may help, certainly with getting me into the skiing rythm at the start of the holiday.
Finally, as stated practice practice practice resulting in "more miles under the skis"
Thanks again everyone......
Now, what are peoples views on helmets?........................JUST KIDDING!!!!!!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
andyrew, Layne, I wasn't saying lessons, lessons,lessons, just that more focused lessons would probably help, not every day of the holiday, perhaps a half day private early on, or if/when snow conditions change
Quote:
Either he has regressed very quickly or there is another explanation
I'd say that OP didn't have the tools to ski the changed conditions, he can either do what many of us have done, and that's practise/get ski miles and pick up bad habits, or get some lessons and try and avoid picking up bad habits.
I've spent approx 20 years picking up bad habits by "just skiing" and the past 5 or so trying to undo them with focused training and specific lessons. I've had my eyes opened by doing some BASI training and qualifying as a L1 instructor.
So I think folk like me are trying to help others NOT pick up bad habits by suggesting targeted lessons.
When all is said and done it's just an opinion, folk can ignore it, question it or follow it. It doesn't bother me either way.
I do know that skiing done well is alot more enjoyable, less tiring and reduces risk of injury.
regards,
Greg
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
kitenski wrote:
ski miles and pick up bad habits,
or get some lessons and try and avoid picking up bad habits.
I've spent approx 20 years picking up bad habits by "just skiing"
So I think folk like me are trying to help others NOT pick up bad habits
I'm quite intrigued as to what these "bad habits" are (mentioned 4 times, is that a bad habit?), care to enumerate?
I'll start, I think one of mine is being tempted to a second pichet of wine when madame anounces that there is a tarte tatin just out of the oven. (I don't usually do desert)
Typical bad habits you'll see in a very high proportion of holiday skis are skiing in the back seat, alot of upper body movement used to fling the skis around. We tried saying that the majority of folk ski in the back seats on one my courses, then we looked up the hill. The first 8 folk that skied past us were in the back seat from memory
Me personally, I used to bring my hands into my body as I turned, I also couldn't carve long turns properly (used to start with a skid), didn't have a particularly good posture and balance and hence wasn't centered over my skis.
Examples include swinging your shoulders; starting most of your turns with a little snowplough or stem; or the dreaded "A frame". These are frequently seen with all levels of skier, no matter how experienced.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
kitenski wrote:
andyrew, how long have you got!!
Typical bad habits you'll see in a very high proportion of holiday skis are skiing in the back seat, alot of upper body movement used to fling the skis around. We tried saying that the majority of folk ski in the back seats on one my courses, then we looked up the hill. The first 8 folk that skied past us were in the back seat from memory
Me personally, I used to bring my hands into my body as I turned, I also couldn't carve long turns properly (used to start with a skid), didn't have a particularly good posture and balance and hence wasn't centered over my skis.
Examples include swinging your shoulders; starting most of your turns with a little snowplough or stem; or the dreaded "A frame". These are frequently seen with all levels of skier, no matter how experienced.
When you say "back seat". Do you mean the weight too far back over the tails?
One of the things I have had to concentrate on is getting the hands well forward and keeping my weight forward too
andyrew, of course it's a holiday, not boot camp, but a good lesson can be one of the most enjoyable parts of a holiday! And the improved technique and confidence afterwards.
It all depends on your point of view - I have friends who have skied for years, not had any lessons for years and who are, frankly, rather poor skiers, easily thrown by anything other than good conditions (e.g hardpack snow, poor vis). I also have a son in law, keen skier and a PE teacher and good windsurfer, who would have private lessons every day if he could afford it and wasn't required for child-minding duties.
Many people would agree that someone who has only skied for 3 weeks would improve more quickly if they didn't spend their next few holidays with no lessons. Some (a minority on this thread so far) would disagree. If there were no difference of opinion it would be a very boring thread - very interesting comparing those two youtube clips on slush, for example.
I still have lessons after a very long time skiing (time on skis doesn't necessarily lead to improved technique...) and only cost prevents my having a lot more.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I suppose whether you have lessons or not depends on what you want to get out of your skiing.
For me, a ski trip isn't primarily a holiday. I enjoy a few beers and decent food in the evenings, but I go because I want to improve and enjoy doing that. As a result I'll spend about 50% of my time in lessons or on courses.
If you enjoy tootling round and having a few stops at huts and nice lunch then that's fine too.
But if you post an enquiry on a ski forum asking whether lessons are worth it or for some tips, then I'd presume that the OP wants to improve too.
After all it is free
After all it is free
kitenski wrote:
andyrew, how long have you got!!
Typical bad habits you'll see in a very high proportion of holiday skis are skiing in the back seat, alot of upper body movement used to fling the skis around. We tried saying that the majority of folk ski in the back seats on one my courses, then we looked up the hill. The first 8 folk that skied past us were in the back seat from memory
Me personally, I used to bring my hands into my body as I turned, I also couldn't carve long turns properly (used to start with a skid), didn't have a particularly good posture and balance and hence wasn't centered over my skis.
Examples include swinging your shoulders; starting most of your turns with a little snowplough or stem; or the dreaded "A frame". These are frequently seen with all levels of skier, no matter how experienced.
Shoulder swinging/upper body rotation is not what I would call "a bad habit" . That is just total lack of proper technique, not exactly hard for someone to diagnose themself.
skiing in the back seat? I assume you're saying "weight back on your tails" rather than a nice balanced position between the ball of your foot and heel?
But these are core concepts and yes, if someone is not at least attempting to "do it right" (or is dangerous!) then they need instruction. But I was rather looking for something a bit more subtle than that. These are not the kind of bad habits I will pick up if "spent approx 20 years by "just skiing".
I was thinking in terms of hands close in to the body - the "are you cold?" syndrome, which you may not notice in yourself unless pointed out.
I would still argue that if someone has had good instruction in the core concepts then they may well be better off getting out skiing and assimilate what they've already been taught rather than pumping out good money to hear the same things again!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I think the instruction might help to develop confidence, at no point during my holiday was I dangerous. As one of the group I was skiing with pointed out, I can turn and stop at any point so was never out of control.
What I wasnt doing -in places- was allowing myself to pick up enough speed to develop a nice rhythm of turning, I seemed to have developed an irrational fear of falling and was possibly skiing well within my limits.
I suppose the real question is how does a skiier get his/her confidence back, the point about changing snow conditions causing a problem certainly seems valid.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
These are not the kind of bad habits I will pick up if "spent approx 20 years by "just skiing".
maybe you won't, but you only need to take a casual glance round from a chairlift to see lots of people who apparently have. I would argue "tail-tossing" and Z-shaped turns to the list, especially when accompanied by a rather peculiar circular swinging sort of pole-plant.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
If you live near one of the snowdomes lessons would certainly help. But also, don't have a holiday without lessons. A private lesson on the first day will get you going again and ask for some tips on what to practice. Then, if the money runs to it, have another lesson - maybe on day 3. And DO practice, especially the things you find most difficult.
