I'm a good intermediate skier - controlled, speedy, very happy on red runs, pretty happy on black ones, enjoy nothing better than a nice natural mogul field. However I have just started learning to ski powder and am finding it tricky as I can't seem to keep my skis close enough together.
I have a couple of different instructors who I ski with but all they seem to say is "try to keep your skis closer together" - though I have had some good practice with one of them working on big turns with my skis close together, but I am wondering if it is something to do with my leg muscles rather than simply setting my skis side-by-side. Do I need to work on the muscles that pull the legs together? Are there recommended exercises for this? It will be too late for my trip to the Dolomites on Sunday but I want to be able to go off-piste without looking like Bambi on ice!
I know that any good skier who is used to the piste is going to find it hard to switch elements, and in some ways trying powder and becoming a bit of a novice again has its charms, but any tips will be gratefully received (try to keep it clean!).
Thanks,
Violette
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Remember that to keep them together, that you have to be in control of both skis; so you need to have weight on both skis at all times.
But if you can do bumps, you should be doing this already.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Have you tried skiing on piste with your legs closer together? Sometimes it is a good idea to practise off-piste technique on piste first as an exercise. However, you don't want to physically lock those legs together because you still want to have some independence between your legs (it is better for your balance).
Top tips would be based on the fact that:
Quote:
on piste you ski ON the snow, off-piste you ski IN the snow!!
So,
> don't try and physically rotate the skis when they are in the snow!
> If you put too much weight on one ski then that ski will sink. Not good, which is why more even weight distribution is beneficial
> Skis need to be kept parallel otherwise they go in different directions.
> Don't sit back (Otherwise you will have to rotate the skis to turn them, which is not fun and very hard work).
> You need to stay centred on your skis. BTW it doesn't matter if you cannot see your skis. They work in the snow.
> Don't rush your turns ie by turning too sharply - otherwise you go splat! Try to keep them rounded.
> Keep moving forward down the slope. If you traverse then it really is going to be hard to get some momentum going. Turn shape should be more this shape "(" as opposed to these shapes: "<" , "C"
The most obvious answer to me is "because you're used to skiing with them further apart". I have the same symptom, though don't regard it as a big problem. It's hard to overcome an ingrained habit where your body has learnt one thing (feet further part gives feeling of stability, easier to access edges, etc.) and your brain wants another as your brain inevitably gets distracted and the body goes back to doing what it knows and likes. The only way to beat this in the long term is, I think, repeated sessions where you do nothing other than focus on the thing you're trying to correct and keep repeating it until your body has learnt the new way. I don't think there is a magic bullet or small change you can make that will immediately get the effect you desire. There are probably many drills you could work through to help.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Get some wider skis simples
After all it is free
After all it is free
Or a monoski - I bet that would work!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Elston, thanks for this, it's really useful. I do think I am rushing my turns and my instructor in France was onto this - he could see it was trepidation that was making me try to turn too sharply. One of my legs is weaker than the other and I think I've spent a while trying to even up my weight but this obviously needs more work. I traverse very easily through very rough and varied terrain - both legs working responsively - but when a bit of consistency is needed I think that's where I fall down (heh, sometimes literally of course!).
Alas I will have to wait to play your video until I'm not at work
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Sorry Elston, watching the vid froze my ability to carry on typing - meant to say I have watched it with the sound off and will be skidding around on a T-shirt in the kitchen tonight!
kieranm, I am sure you are right about it being a habit to ski wide, and that repetition is key. I will try the exercises too, though the twirly-roundy one looks a bit sick-making!
Thanks again all!
V
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Cynic wrote:
Get some wider skis simples
I'd say that you're better off learning to ski off-piste on normal everyday piste skis because otherwise you would miss out on the valuable experience you get from skiing with your skis actually in the snow.
You might fall over a lot more for doing so but IMO it is worth it in the long run.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Elston, I tend to think there is a happy medium somewhere in kit where you're getting the benefit of modern technology and still ski in the snow with an old school technique.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I've been using all-mountain skis so have a bit of extra width but can still ski on piste. I'm all for old-school technique as well and I like the idea of skiing IN the snow rather than ON it.
I have been trying to "think through my heels" as well, which seems to help keep them together and keep them *working* together too.
V.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
meh wrote:
Elston, I tend to think there is a happy medium somewhere in kit where you're getting the benefit of modern technology and still ski in the snow with an old school technique.
I agree. All mountain skis with 80mm ish width are ideal for learning. I just wouldn't recommend going super wide (or possibly even 90mm+) initially. [However, having skied some skis with rocker for the first time (dynastar cham 87mm) I couldn't believe how much they floated above the snow for the width. They were super easy to ski off-piste. ]
Not that there is any problem with skiing on the snow but I feel that learning to ski in the snow is a step that can get missed out and it is part of the puzzle of becoming a better skier. Skiing in the snow gives you feedback (ie skis diverging, ski sinking, falling over in general) which you can use to adapt your technique and become a better skier.
Wouldn't really call it old school technique. It's just good skiing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Elston, it was a joke.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Cynic, never mind! I've found the response about ski width useful too. So actually you inadvertently widened the debate ...as well as the skis
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Often people who ski with a wide stance do so because they lean or rotate into the turn, the wide stance helps keep you upright. Try skiing on piste with a narrower stance and more weight on the outside ski and see how it goes.
Being able to ski off piste on small skis is a great skill, but requires very accurate movements to do well, if you want to ski off piste, improve your skills on the piste first, then try off piste on appropriate skis, no sense in making it hard for yourself using skis that are too small.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jimmer, thanks, yes, my first time ever on powder was an opportunistic detour with my instructor when I was on normal skis and it was a bit of a shock!
I will look out next week for any leaning/rotating tendencies when I'm in the Dolomites - probably not much chance of powder there and I'm not sure if I'll be getting any instruction either. I usually go to the French Alps and have 2 instructors whom I ski with regularly, but as I say I've only just started going off-piste so have yet to build up technique.
I really really love getting on a bit of "terrain" - it is sooo much more interesting than being on smooth groomed pistes all the time! I sometimes ski with some friends who like to seek out the smoothest, neatest pistes, and find I have to remind myself how lucky I am instead of whingeing! But I should like to become someone who can handle all the different conditions and surfaces without turning a hair.
V.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Elston, it's a silly idea that with fatter skis you're not skiing in the snow but on it and don't have all the same problems you mention if you ski poorly. Soft snow is soft snow and whether you can see your tips or not the base of the ski is doing the work. The old school thing was mostly a dig at people going out of their way to avoid fat rockered skis when they open up new ways of skiing in soft snow which are really good fun. I have infinitely more fun skiing fat powder skis than I did on my all time deepest day which was on considerably skinnier skis. That said I wouldn't advocate someone learning to go out and buy them but renting something appropriate would definitely help them learn the slight differences to skiing on and off piste more easily in a manner that was much more enjoyable.
meh, jimmer, I am not an instructor but I am all for sharing experience and that is mine.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Elston, This is the internet, it's all about sharing our opinions.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DB wrote:
jimmer,
More weight on the outside ski?
If someone has a wide stance, typically, yes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Elston wrote:
meh, jimmer, I am not an instructor but I am all for sharing experience and that is mine.
That's cool, I didn't meant anything as a dig, I just do teach a lot of powder lessons and have relatively strong views about how it should be done!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Violette wrote:
jimmer, thanks, yes, my first time ever on powder was an opportunistic detour with my instructor when I was on normal skis and it was a bit of a shock!
I will look out next week for any leaning/rotating tendencies when I'm in the Dolomites - probably not much chance of powder there and I'm not sure if I'll be getting any instruction either. I usually go to the French Alps and have 2 instructors whom I ski with regularly, but as I say I've only just started going off-piste so have yet to build up technique.
I really really love getting on a bit of "terrain" - it is sooo much more interesting than being on smooth groomed pistes all the time! I sometimes ski with some friends who like to seek out the smoothest, neatest pistes, and find I have to remind myself how lucky I am instead of whingeing! But I should like to become someone who can handle all the different conditions and surfaces without turning a hair.
V.
My first time skiing powder was chasing some friends around when I could still barely turn, it was tough! Improving my on piste skiing made it an awful lot easier.
Maybe get a video of yourself, it's quite hard to feel when you rotate if you are used to doing it.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
jimmer, I think I probably rotate a bit on my right-hand turns as my left leg is a bit feeble, especially when I'm tired. I've got used to thinking my on-piste skiing is quite good and I have taken quite a bit of instruction, but I wonder if I should get a bit more technical. I don't think I'd ever be *complacent* (I've seen what that looks like on the Face!) but have never used video - must get Mr V to whip out his smartphone next week and film me when I think I'm at my most competent!
I was a late starter so I think I have brought a few weaknesses with me onto the piste, though I am a keen learner!
Thanks again
V.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mosha Marc wrote:
Remember that to keep them together, that you have to be in control of both skis; so you need to have weight on both skis at all times.
Huh. I would have expected exactly the opposite advice - make one ski heavy and the other light, and then the light one is easy to bring in.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Huh. I would have expected exactly the opposite advice - make one ski heavy and the other light, and then the light one is easy to bring in.
If you do this in the powder, you're going to have a bad time!!
Balance over both skis will help you. try and think about keeping the centre of your body on top of your skis. If you move inside the turn (incline or angulate) in powder there won't be the pressure and forces that are created on piste to support your weight.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
glp9 wrote:
Quote:
Huh. I would have expected exactly the opposite advice - make one ski heavy and the other light, and then the light one is easy to bring in.
If you do this in the powder, you're going to have a bad time!!
Balance over both skis will help you. try and think about keeping the centre of your body on top of your skis. If you move inside the turn (incline or angulate) in powder there won't be the pressure and forces that are created on piste to support your weight.
You can get massive angles in powder just the same as on piste, I assure you it's a good time. Yes, you can be more 2 footed in powder, but still the most common problem I see are people too inside. With a wide stance, I would put money on the OP using the inside leg to hold herself up, to narrow her stance, she needs to put more weight on the outside ski.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jimmer,
I think it was you who posted a clip some time ago including some fantastic skiing in powder with very big angles, however you were skiing at speed in the powder. Isn't it so that the faster you ski in powder the more the skiing sensation resembles hard snow? (e.g. similar to water skiing at speed)
I think I get what you are saying though - there's too much weight on the inside ski with a wide stance and it's likely the edge angles don't match (A framing) and the skis are going everywhere but together. The inside ski is also probably too flat and should be out away to the side from under the skier?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
jimmer,
I think it was you who posted a clip some time ago including some fantastic skiing in powder with very big angles, however you were skiing at speed in the powder. Isn't it so that the faster you ski in powder the more the skiing sensation resembles hard snow? (e.g. similar to water skiing at speed)
I think I get what you are saying though - there's too much weight on the inside ski with a wide stance and it's likely the edge angles don't match (A framing) and the skis are going everywhere but together. The inside ski is also probably too flat and should be out away to the side from under the skier?
It depends on a few things, just like on a groomed slope, the faster you go, the more you can incline, so if you don't have any speed, you won't get any angles. That's then related to the depth of the snow, the deeper the snow, the more friction there is, so you go slower and consequently get lower angles. And of course if you are skiing something very steep and using a lot of steering, there'll be less angles there as well, so no, I don't mean that everyone should be nuking SG turns with their hip on the floor in all conditions. But equally, when you tip your skis, they turn for you, so why have them flat?
Exactly, with a wide stance it's tough to have matching edge angles and have the skis work together, which is key in powder.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Some thoughts from an OK piste skier converting to 'freeriding'
One thing to remember is that the snow under your feet is constantly changing, meaning that you have to constantly adapt your technique. There isn't just 1 technique you can apply.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
One thing to remember is that the snow under your feet is constantly changing, meaning that you have to constantly adapt your technique. There isn't just 1 technique you can apply.
Or, the way I think of it, the hidden surface you're actually skiing on under the powder (I've only once had powder so deep that I was skiing on more powder) is bumpy and lumpy but you can't see the bumps and lumps.
You're constantly either being thrown off balance and having to recover (this needs strong core muscles and good fore and aft balance), or your skis are being directed in different directions by the hidden bumps and you're having to recover (this needs strong adductor muscles to keep your legs together). At least, that's what happens to me but then I'm still very new at this powder skiing malarkey.
I've only once had powder so deep that I was skiing on more powder
Yep, rare for sure.
Anyone mention Japan?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
One thing to remember is that the snow under your feet is constantly changing, meaning that you have to constantly adapt your technique. There isn't just 1 technique you can apply.
You have to constantly adjust your balance, but not convinced you need a different technique, a few fundamentals go a long way.
I have a couple of different instructors who I ski with but all they seem to say is "try to keep your skis closer together"
Who are your instructors? Jean Claude-Killy and Jean Vuarnet?
It might help if you posted photos or video of your stance but in general a shoulder width stance works ok in powder and gives you a solid platform to work from. Skiing with legs close together is very 1970s.
Still you can't knock Killy, - 215cm Strato skis with 65mm underfoot
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 13-03-13 12:39; edited 2 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
davidof wrote:
Violette wrote:
I have a couple of different instructors who I ski with but all they seem to say is "try to keep your skis closer together"
Who are your instructors? Jean Claude-Killy and Jean Vuarnet?
It might help if you posted photos or video of your stance but in general a shoulder width stance works ok in powder and gives you a solid platform to work from. Skiing with legs close together is very 1970s.
Still you can't knock Killy, - 215cm Strato skis with 65mm underfoot
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
davidof wrote:
jimmer wrote:
Shoulder width!
yes about 30 cm between skis
Are you trolling me? It feels like I've had this discussion recently. Why on earth would you want to ski powder with your feet 30cms apart?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
jimmer wrote:
glp9 wrote:
Quote:
Huh. I would have expected exactly the opposite advice - make one ski heavy and the other light, and then the light one is easy to bring in.
If you do this in the powder, you're going to have a bad time!!
Balance over both skis will help you. try and think about keeping the centre of your body on top of your skis. If you move inside the turn (incline or angulate) in powder there won't be the pressure and forces that are created on piste to support your weight.
You can get massive angles in powder just the same as on piste, I assure you it's a good time. Yes, you can be more 2 footed in powder, but still the most common problem I see are people too inside. With a wide stance, I would put money on the OP using the inside leg to hold herself up, to narrow her stance, she needs to put more weight on the outside ski.
Big fat +1
DB
Quote:
Isn't it so that the faster you ski in powder the more the skiing sensation resembles hard snow? (e.g. similar to water skiing at speed)
I wouldn't say it resembles hard snow at all. Closest sensation is surfing.
FAQ
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