 Poster: A snowHead
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Has anybody done this? How do I go about it?
Specifically this is reference to my recent knee injury and surgery. I have just had my follow up appointment and have been told that I shouldn't ski because it is high impact (I dispute this - it CAN be dependant on steepness, conditions etc), due to having damaged half of the ACL reconstruction, having had 2/3 of my medial meniscus cartilage removed from my knee.
I know there are various people who have skiied without an ACL altogether.
Is he over-reacting? I am happy to modify my expectations and potter around on blues constantly, but to never ski again really does not appeal in the slightest. There was no suggestion of bracing or anything like that, it was a if you do, I will need a knee replacement as a young age just to be able to walk to the bathroom.
He suggested cross country skiing, it doesn't appeal but I am happy to try it. Another thing I didn't think to ask was may snow boarding? I have heard that is easier on the knees? Is that right? Trouble is I have never done it, and part of my thinks that you are more likely to cause damage learning a new skill than doing something you have good muscle memory of how to do?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 12-11-13 12:45; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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He suggested cross country skiing, it doesn't appeal but I am happy to try it
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Hmm. I'll be interested in the responses you get to this thread. As for snowboarding, I agree with the points you make - you will inevitably fall a lot, and you also tend to spend quite a bit of time on your knees, but the chances of badly twisting a knee are less (provided you have both feet in the bindings, which isn't always the case).
I find that my knees get hot and swollen after a day's hard skiing - not necessarily on the steep and deep, though I find it's worse if pistes are hard and fast. Your knees are constantly absorbing impact, after all. But I rarely do a hard day's skiing - a hard half a day is often enough, or even an easy half a day. No other activity (even running, not that I run much - just 30 minutes) makes my knees react that way - you can feel the heat through salopettes. I use ice and ibuprofen to reduce the swelling.
Cross-country skiing, done properly (ie not shuffling round on the flat) is highly technical and very aerobic - you might enjoy it. I find it extremely difficult; much more so than downhill skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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another thought - I'd amend the thread title to make it clear you're talking about a knee problem.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks Pam, I have amended thread but half of my query relates to how to get second opinions (which may be irrespective of the medical issue), it is especially going to complicated by the fact that he has been the only one to have gone "inside" my knee since this latest injury. So I don't know if it is feasible?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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NickyJ, a second opinion is always feasible, and I think your consultant should provide any information required to the second consultant. Does your consultant ski? It is often said that non-skiing docs advise differently to skiing ones.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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NickyJ, sorry to hear this  One thing to bear in mind too (now that the chap has said this) is your insurance. If you go skiing you will now be skiing against medical advice which is not a good position to be in insurance wise. So I agree with you, that you do need to get a second opinion so that hopefully you can find a surgeon who may have a different view. You need to find a knee surgeon who is also a skier ideally. You can go back to your GP to ask for a referral or you can ask the consultant to refer you. But what I would do is research your options and find someone who specialises in your condition and is a skier if at all possible, don't just go blindly to see another consultant.
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i did't ask him, but he didn't give me the impression that he did. Thanks.
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Skiing may be considered to be high impact, but you aren't proposing to ski for the whole year, just a week or two at most. But then, I am not your knee surgeon. Good luck.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sarah, thanks - that is exactly what is on my mind. My insurance for the April trip was purchased prior to this latest injury, I still want to go, it isn't just me, the girls and hubby will be skiing, I would just really like to be joining them. With this sort of prognosis getting future insurance cover may well be an issue as well.
I think I will need to book a visit to Wimbledon and our resident expert.
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I would say that impact on the knees is pretty much the same cruising along whether your on a snowboard or ski's.
if you can already ski though i'd stick to that as learning something new will lead to more impacts and twists.....whether either is a good idea though i dunno...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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NickyJ I am aware (by having been his patient) of one consultant who is both a knee specialist and a keen skier - Robin Strachan. He is at Charing Cross Hospital in Hammersmith, London, and also privately at Clementine Churchill Hospital in Harrow. Try to get a referral to him. He would probably agree to see you privately without a referral if you contacted him, though that would not be cheap. http://www.drfosterhealth.co.uk/consultant-guide/Mr-Robin-Kinnear-Strachan-2334477.aspx
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Definitely get a second opinion and a good exercise program. People manage to ski even without ACL these days. Good luck!
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NickyJ, A few of my friends ski without ACL's so it's possible for sure. They spend a lot of time on fitness and ensuring that their muscle strength helps support the joint.
As for Snowboarding I'd agree that on the whole it's easier on the knee's and you are a lot less likely to get the twisting issues that you do with skis. I don't spent much time at all kneeling so it is optional once you get the hang of it.
As other have said it's worth getting a second view from a surgeon that ski's (or boards).
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You know it makes sense.
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NickyJ, One alternative to alpine skiing you may care to investigate (and I'm being serious here) is Telemark skiing!  Most people say "Oh isn't that very hard on the knees?" Actually no, AFAIK the knee joint itself doesn't get as much jarring in Telemark as it does in Alpine. Take the case of skiing on a hard "boiler plate" piste - in Alpine with a straight leg position the vibration is transmitted from the lower leg straight through the knee joint whereas with Telemark because of the bent leg position the musculature acts like a springy shock absorber. What Telemark is hard on is the leg muscles, see this article
More discussion on injury rates associated with X-C/Telemark/Alpine skiing here
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thanks for the link and suggestion. Looks like I need another thread as I know as much about telemarking as I know about XC.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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NickyJ, I see you are based in Hampshire, I don't know how convenient it is for you to get to the Hemel Hempstead snowdome, but every few weeks there is a Telemarking group meets up there for a ski session, and given notice the guy who runs it usually has some Telemark boots and skis available for beginners to try. If you're interested I can PM you details of the group.
Another reference on skiing injuries here http://www.ski-injury.com/faq - see section 9 "which sport is the kindest on the knees"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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NickyJ, I'd get some 2nd opinions before trying telemarking/snowboarding etc
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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NickyJ, Non skiing doctors / consultants would always be super conservative / cautious about your condition it seems to me. Obviously you must get the best 'second opinion' you can but a second 'opinion' is really only that and i would think any 'opinion' would be full of many many caveats as permutations of possible scenario events are very high.
Obviously you have the choice not to ski steep runs any time of the year or icy conditions by going in spring / skiing south facing slopes or skiing 1/2 days i.e afternoons etc. I would think also you could learn to ski very 'soft' as well .
Insurance wise for the future? I've had a lower back problem for many years. I prepare / condition myself as if i have no insurance. You won't see me doing jumps or difficult moguls but i could be spotted zooming ZOOMING around the piste.
It must be a really, dark dark day for you now. The future will be better but perhaps you will have to miss this season at the worst- and i hope i'm wrong!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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NickyJ, my Austrian surgeon said that of course I would be skiing this season; my non-skiing UK consultant had no idea what to advise and said it was up to me and I could consider a brace if I wanted to. He readily admitted he had no understanding of what forces were exerted by skiing. I'd definitely go for a second opinion from a skiing consultant.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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This is a very interesting thread but unfortunately very unfortunate for you NickyJ.
What did your surgeon say before the operation? Is it different to what he is saying now?
From your description he is being quite definite and uncompromising in his advice to you. That is a concern as that is not the demeanor of someone who isn't sure. If he is truly that sure, you should be cogniscent.
You can get second opinion, but the weight of that opinion has to be weighed against the opinion of the surgeon who actually did the operation. No two cases are the same and it is possible your case was not a textbook case either.
But if yoi do end up unable to walk to bathroom you will really regret not taking his advice
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Oh, and the point about needing a knee replacement - yes, me too in about 15 years if I can stave it off that long, and I'd still only be in my sixties. He didn't think that was a reason not to ski - he reckoned I would need the replacement anyway.
If it were me, I'd be asking your surgeon exactly what he is basing his opinion on - his experience, the evidence etc - so you can compare it to a second opinion so you can then make a judgement.
Surprised he is suggesting cross-country as an alternative....
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Surprised he is suggesting cross-country as an alternative....
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I'm not really surprised, though maybe he doesn't know much about either sort of skiing. IME XC is definitely easier on the knee-joint itself. Downhill skiing is the ONLY thing that can make my knees hot and swollen. I've not done telemark and couldn't even try - I know my leg muscles aren't up to it. I just disappointed myself by how terribly I did some simple lunges. Pathetic.  Need to do more.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, I'm more concerned about a slow, twisting sort of fall rather than the impact on the joint, but I haven;t really looked into XC properly yet - I do want to try this season. I did a telemark lesson some years back - I was rubbish - kept tipping over sideways and having to be picked up, although I lasted longer than MrHL! Now that I am a lunge queen I might consider it again, but I'd need my balance to be much improved first.
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One thing you should definitely do one way or another is make your way to Wimbledon or to one of the other recommended surgeons and get your second opinion, and screw the cost. They will give more info and if there is a reason you shouldn't ski they will probably know what it is. More important, if there was any chance you were going to give up something you love this much, satisfy yourself it is truly necessary
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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peanuthead, that is exactly how I feel. I was really shocked by his attitiude there was no talk of braces building up muscles etc.
What I am not sure about is how I go a about getting my records over to Jonathan Bell or whoever I go to.
Also based on the links I have been given I was reading about the Ski Mojo - sounds like I am an ideal candidate from what I have rad (though it doesn't have too much detail about the full details of conditions it is good for.
Before surgery I was not even fully weight bearing, I had been stuck on crutches for 2months with a knee that could not be bent or straightened. No discussion was made about sports other than what I had been doing before it went.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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NickyJ, just ask him to copy relevant notes including op notes and get the CDs of any scans. I don't see why there would be any issue and he might even be happy to accept a call from whoever you see. Certainly don't get 2nd opinion without notes, that will only become guesswork on the part of your new consultant which won't be good enough.
Also, I have seen jonathan bel tell people they can only go back in some cases when they have attained certain standards with strenghth etc. Get your hands on appropriate strength program and start working
Finally, I have seen many people in France with one leg skiing on some sort of monoski faster than I can on two skis....
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NickyJ, pretty sure most imaging is 'open access' now so in theory any scans, xrays etc should be able to be seen online anywhere regardless of where they were taken. This was the case when my son broke his wrist, a friend who is an orthopaedic consultant at another hospital looked at the A&E xrays online before the fracture clinic appointment and was able to offer reassurance. Same happened with my hubby when he moved between private and NHS with his knee. As for the notes you could ask for copies or you could ask the 2nd opinion consultant's secretary for the procedure, she may be able to request them for you.
Re. the Ski Mojo, definitely. My hubby got one last season and before he got it he was really losing his enthusiasm for skiing, after he was skiing pretty much at his peak. He could not be without it now. I think it is helpful for any condition where you want to take some of the load off your knees. Expensive but so worth it.
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You know it makes sense.
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NickyJ,
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I was reading about the Ski Mojo
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I would recommend speaking with Martin at Ski Mojo, I know he had a meeting with lots of the top knee consultants the other day and this may prove useful for you.
I am also keeping my fingers crossed my lad (23) is in for total ACL reconstruction plus a few other bits!! later this month I am definitely getting him a ski mojo so when he does get back on skis his knees stand a chance of surviving until hes 30!!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I had the ACL reconstructed when I was 29. It is that reconstruction which i have just found out that I partially damaged when I was 37.
Thanks all - your advice is greatly appreciated.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Expensive but so worth it.
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Edge and Wax have some ex-hire Ski Mojos for sale at the moment - very advantageous prices and they can fit you there, too. And it's not too far away.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks Pam
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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NickyJ, +one more for the second opinion and definitely seek it from a skier. My ACL Surgeon is in Glasgow so no use to you but is part of a sports injury practice and as a skier himself, knew exactly what was required. I remember him saying to me that a problem for people seeking advice from more generalist orthopaedic surgeons is that they simply don't know whats involved in specific sports and therefore err on the side of caution, which I suppose one might expect. As he put it though they may have watched Ski Sunday once and think that is what we all do all the time?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
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Expensive but so worth it.
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Edge and Wax have some ex-hire Ski Mojos for sale at the moment - very advantageous prices and they can fit you there, too. And it's not too far away. |
Sadly they are all out of stock
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I had to change my next Physio appointment due to trying to arrange something at work, so on impulse I also left a message for my Physio saying that I will be asking her advice re if the Ski mojo would address the issues that my consultant had with me skiing. She just phoned me back and interestingly she doesn't agree with my consultant and says yes if I was talking about all season and competing then yes she would agree but not for one or two weeks recreational skiing a year. She feels with continued rehab i should be good to go, and yes May need to brace up. I see her on Tuesday so will see how that goes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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NickyJ, That sounds hopeful! 
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livetoski,
I was invited to speak at British Association of Sports and Exercise Medicine annual meeting at St George's Park and met Martin and had a good chat with him about the ski mojo.
I have some thoughts and am interested in possibly doing a proper trial to see if it helps with worn knees. I can see some potential for some situations.
Jonathan Bell
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NickyJ,
Happy to discuss on pm if that helps
Jonathan Bell
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Including mine Jonathan Bell? Which is 2/3rds medial meniscus cartilage removed and a partial damaged ACL reconstruction?
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| NickyJ wrote: |
| Including mine Jonathan Bell? Which is 2/3rds medial meniscus cartilage removed and a partial damaged ACL reconstruction? |
Yes. Happy to discuss on open forum if you want but as we have had some exchange already I need to be sure I don't disclose anything I've learnt on pm. ( confidentiality etc) . Best is to post / pm your specific questions and ill do my best.
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FAQ
